Chapter 44-1: Life and Death

[Bullethead]

Ok, I'm officially crazy.
I got the "Eel" and the "foam finger" part, but here's what I pictured: Datu picking up a natural size reproduction of a human finger, which maybe was broken from a dressing mannequin made of foam or something, which had some eels attached on the finger end, where the nail would be. I mean, how weird is that. As for the word "Go" I could not fit it in this crazy picture and I thought it was something like Gold or something else. But it was too weird.
Then I remembered people in movies with the foam fingers at the stadium and I understood it was the giant glove thing, but I looked for "Goat heels" because to me it seemed more likely a sports team with a goat as a symbol than an eel.

Man, this one was tougher than "What about that nap?", "This sailor jerry has been teasing me" and Puck on the radio while hurt, combined.

lol

[Gnex]

Maybe they made the tunnels with Magic?!?! oh wait...... we aren't allowed to use the "M" word!!!!

[GeneraLee]

Long time lurker, first time caller... Just wanted to jump in finally. Give a bit of 2 cents.

I missed a lot of discussion on here the past through chapters and judging from some of the comments on this thread some of these May have already been discussed so sorry if I'm bringing up old stuff, but here are my thoughts...

I am struggling with the last couple chapters a little bit. There are a few things that are a little unbelievable in my opinion.

Zombie language age the is understood upon infection? All I can think is BS. Of course we are in a made up world of suspended belief, but some things for into that built world and some don't. This doesn't fit, it stands out like a sore thumb.

I'm with you if it was some instant language, but I think that's not the case. The symbols that Datu read, he said they just "mean something", so to me, that sounds like it's more recognition, rather than anything else. Or, maybe it's just how their brains are re-wired now. So many physical and mental changes occur, maybe it's still English, just how they can read it. But what if someone didn't speak English, then change? Could they still read it?

The other possibility is that once you change, some innate qualities come out just from changing. They obviously act different, maybe there's some sort of suppressed instinct that comes out that's a genetic response. Sort of like those butterflies that know exactly where to migrate, but the journey takes literally 3 generations to get to where they are going. Similar to birds. The way they travel is thought to also be sort of a pattern recognition. What if by changing, this sort of unlocked that part of the brain?

The other part is that we know they can communicate, they get called to and away from areas. We can't understand it, but they can, so this already exists in the series. Pharamones play a part, I'm sure based on the sweat stuff, but from long distances, they'd have to know how to respond. Ink couldn't have trained all of them, so something like this must already be instinctual.

Burt and Riley in the last chapter are talking about how they have water, food, ammo and fuel to spare, and nobody wants to join them? That doesn't make any sense either. We have people abandoning the colony right now for lack of those very essentials, and still nobody is interested?

I think this isn't the case. The colony had to support upwards of what, 60 or 70 people, not single digits. Dunbar, I'm sure, has enough water and supplies stored up to support about 10 people for a while, and with the rain I'm sure there's rain catchers too. The colonists are leaving(/left?) because they can't sustain that # long term.

Sure Riley and Burt have supplies for themselves, but enough to support a lot more people, long term? Naw. And the story doesn't say that Dunbar doesn't have more. And Burt wouldn't invite a bunch of random colonists to stay with him. He seems like he would only want people useful to him. Having Saul and others stay with them could just add more strain to a supply meant for only two people. I think Burt offering is more of a "I miss you" sort of thing.

Burt and Riley seemed to be inviting Saul, and maybe a few others to stay there, and honestly, just security wise, if I were Saul, I wouldn't go. Dunbar is far more secure. A little hideout might be ok for one or two people. More than that, it wouldn't be wise. We know what happens to larger #'s in groups.

Oh, and Saul's having a baby with Lizzy, like Saul can just leave her, and then who would that leave? Tanya can't go because of Lizzy. Kelly? Right, Burt would LOVE that. Hope- not sure about her. Pegs would stay with Michael, and Michael wouldn't leave.

The tunnels, we are thinking a hand dug, non-reinforced tunnel 20 feet underground, and over a mile long, not including the forks in it, and the street above isn't sagging or collapsing, and no sign of the mountains of dirt that would have been dug up? Again, hard to maintain my mind in the We're Alive reality when this also stands out like a sore thumb.

Looking at the map, it's just a bunch of residential, not like huge skyscrapers. I don't know much about tunnels, but if the walls are say, as strong as concrete, maybe that could work. We're not sure what the mixture is exactly. I think this is sort of on par with the "ants" segment previously. How do ants create their massive structures without collapsing? It's their mouth goo stuff, right? The little one's drooled... maybe that? I dunno.

Maybe at first the tunnels were made out of necessity, being trapped in the arena. Then after Ink saw that they worked, he used them to his advantage. Anyone have an engineering background want to do a force/load chart? Maybe wanna do some Mythbustering?

Taking Lizzy to Cain. It is safer to move a distressed baby and mother to an unsanitary and possibly zombie patrolled location rather than sending runners to grab the supplies and equipment and bringing them back to Dunbar? This seems backwards to me. As a father of 3 I understand wanting to be in a hospital and having access to tools and equipment and such, but hasn't the hospital been pretty well picked clean at this point? And the equipment Tanya did want has already been staged at the loading doc by Saul, just needs to be shoved on a truck and take off?

This one doesn't bother me, and actually makes sense given what's presented. Tanya waits things out in Dunbar with Lizzy, seeing if she can make it through. If she were to send Saul and Kelly from Dunbar to get the equipment, in the rain, and with that thing there, how long would it take? Maybe 25-30 minutes to get there, another hour or two to load up, bring everything back 30 min, unload and set up, maybe another hour. So, about 3 hours time, minimum for the stuff to come back. Given the distress of the baby, she says the colony is too far anyway, which means the baby is so bad she needs to do an emergency C-section. They may have no way of communicating too, so Tanya is left in the dark completely unable to do anything to get the baby out, by the time Saul and Kelly get back, baby and mom both die.

Also, how can she perform that c-section without some sort of baby-safe anesthesia? Saul even mentions it in this chapter. Who knows, she could have had some medical supplies there at Dunbar to put her under, but those could have risked/killed the baby. Anesthesia and babies is a VERY dangerous road to go down, and then also to not have other ways to monitor the baby while doing the c-section- while everything's going on... I can't imagine trying to do that sort of procedure on someone without anesthesia.

We know that everything Tanya needs is already at the hospital waiting. Previous episodes mentioned why this place had supplies left over and others didn't. The surgery Tanya needs to perform isn't like just removing a bullet from a shoulder, C-sections with a baby in distress is MUCh more dangerous. I can't imagine being able to take the risk there at Dunbar given everything that's happened. I know a friend who ran into a similar situation, and it was dangerous even with a fully staffed and stocked hospital.

Lastly, the characters are not aware of what happened to Michael or all them in the gun truck. If they get closer to Dunbar, they get closer to where they were going... so the radio is then shorter range. They have the right equipment, the 50 cal, and they've been able to kill with it before.

Oh, and for the Kelly-hate right now. She's never gone up against a Behemoth before, and three soldiers got got offed by them. I can imagine she's a little freaked out. I'd find it fishy if she was all calm and collective.

As far as the radios go. I believe Burt and Riley were aware that the frequencies were to be changed. I do not recall them saying they'll stay on the old ones but this seems out of character for Burt. The guy who didn't even want to talk on a hard line about what he knows is now fine with the old codes ?

I'm not worried that Scratch or Tardust will find that radio, they don't have what it takes to get in and out of that prison alive, but Ink. Ink may have gone back to pick up that radio and play with it yea?

I think there's a bit of confusion for how these radios work. Changing encryption keys doesn't change channels. If Burt and Riley are on 2 and the rest on 1, that doesn't change. The encryption code is entered separately.


So how'd I do? Good first post?

[GeneraLee]

Maybe they made the tunnels with Magic?!?! oh wait...... we aren't allowed to use the "M" word!!!!

"Magic is just science we don't understand." - Thor.

[Verse]

I'm with you if it was some instant language, but I think that's not the case. The symbols that Datu read, he said they just "mean something", so to me, that sounds like it's more recognition, rather than anything else. Or, maybe it's just how their brains are re-wired now. So many physical and mental changes occur, maybe it's still English, just how they can read it. But what if someone didn't speak English, then change? Could they still read it?

The other possibility is that once you change, some innate qualities come out just from changing. They obviously act different, maybe there's some sort of suppressed instinct that comes out that's a genetic response. Sort of like those butterflies that know exactly where to migrate, but the journey takes literally 3 generations to get to where they are going. Similar to birds. The way they travel is thought to also be sort of a pattern recognition. What if by changing, this sort of unlocked that part of the brain?

The other part is that we know they can communicate, they get called to and away from areas. We can't understand it, but they can, so this already exists in the series. Pharamones play a part, I'm sure based on the sweat stuff, but from long distances, they'd have to know how to respond. Ink couldn't have trained all of them, so something like this must already be instinctual.

I agree that it is instinctual. Only thing missing is to have KC say "Yep" on that IMO. There is simple to much evidence to type out on that. Them running in packs. Directing each other. Ect. I am ok with that. That makes sense. The 'Understanding of Language' (and it is a Language. If you see a symbol and know what it means... thats a Language.) is what has bothered me and others. You get bitten and you suddenly you see symbols that convey feelings. Still a Language that your learned when bitten which is crap.

That being said...

I am almost ok with it if it turns out to be like your Bird/Butterfly thing. It would fit the story. They have said multiple times that Zeds act like animals. That is just another part of that same idea. Awesome idea. I can get behind that.

I think this isn't the case. The colony had to support upwards of what, 60 or 70 people, not single digits. Dunbar, I'm sure, has enough water and supplies stored up to support about 10 people for a while, and with the rain I'm sure there's rain catchers too. The colonists are leaving(/left?) because they can't sustain that # long term.

Sure Riley and Burt have supplies for themselves, but enough to support a lot more people, long term? Naw. And the story doesn't say that Dunbar doesn't have more. And Burt wouldn't invite a bunch of random colonists to stay with him. He seems like he would only want people useful to him. Having Saul and others stay with them could just add more strain to a supply meant for only two people. I think Burt offering is more of a "I miss you" sort of thing.

Burt and Riley seemed to be inviting Saul, and maybe a few others to stay there, and honestly, just security wise, if I were Saul, I wouldn't go. Dunbar is far more secure. A little hideout might be ok for one or two people. More than that, it wouldn't be wise. We know what happens to larger #'s in groups.

Oh, and Saul's having a baby with Lizzy, like Saul can just leave her, and then who would that leave? Tanya can't go because of Lizzy. Kelly? Right, Burt would LOVE that. Hope- not sure about her. Pegs would stay with Michael, and Michael wouldn't leave.

Yeah, I don't think anyone outside of Saul knows how Bad Ass Burt and Co are living. I think the offer was more of a being nice thing. Like when you offer something to someone knowing they will not take you up on it. You're being nice knowing it will never happen.

I don't think Burt would/did offer to anyone esle. He likes to do his own thing. When you add other people in then you have to stop doing that. You have to look for more food/ammo/ect and take other people into mind when you do things. With him and Riely he doesn't have to do anything unless he wants to. Being in another active group takes that away. He doesn't want to sacrifice any of that.

My tinfoil hat theroy is that Burt and Riely don't make it and Saul/Lizzy take over. Make it their place.

Oh, and for the Kelly-hate right now. She's never gone up against a Behemoth before, and three soldiers got got offed by them. I can imagine she's a little freaked out. I'd find it fishy if she was all calm and collective.

I agree. Kelly has never been a "Lets go on Missions!!" kinda person. She stepped up to the plate with Michael, but that was because they were looking for others. Not gunning down walking tank. She likes to help, but from a safe place. To be fair she always bitches and moans, but comes through. I would have been mad if she didn't help. True to Kelly form though.. she moaned and groaned but did it.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Hi,

I would like to add this whole conversation that it has become highly improbably that team Good is going to find this famous silver bullet to challenge Ink to the slightest chance. He has vast if not virtually unlimited resources, a zeeh-brain which seems to be the equivalent of IBM's Deep Blue computer. And he has got a prefect sense of timing. So is it not time to concede that the only thing that is the only thing left is to have a final resolution to the Pegs-Scratch-problem? That is all that is left to do.

Ink is simply the relentless hot knife which slices with ease through the buttery lifelines of his opponents.

[Vanniek71]

These short episodes are killing me... Need MOAR

[Grognaurd]

Warfare is all about Action vs. Reaction vs Counter...etc.

Ink has made some bullet proof brutes to counter the technological range advantage that fire arms give the humans. But, his technology is essentially melee range. How should the humans counter that? We have already seen a very effective counter improvised by Puck. The behemoth are flesh and blood, and the nervous system can be overridden by the taser family. Followed by a localized explosion in the head.

[GeneraLee]

I agree that it is instinctual. Only thing missing is to have KC say "Yep" on that IMO. There is simple to much evidence to type out on that. Them running in packs. Directing each other. Ect. I am ok with that. That makes sense. The 'Understanding of Language' (and it is a Language. If you see a symbol and know what it means... thats a Language.) is what has bothered me and others. You get bitten and you suddenly you see symbols that convey feelings. Still a Language that your learned when bitten which is crap.

That being said...

I am almost ok with it if it turns out to be like your Bird/Butterfly thing. It would fit the story. They have said multiple times that Zeds act like animals. That is just another part of that same idea. Awesome idea. I can get behind that.

But language is just advanced pattern recognition. I'm curious if Kc subscribes to the philosophy in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Language-Insti.../dp/0061336467

It describes language as "an instinct, an evolutionary adaptation that is partly "hard-wired" into the brain and partly learned."

IF, that's what he's basing it off of- I wonder if this will come into play "If Pinker is right, the origins of language go much further back than 30,000 years ago (the date most commonly given in textbooks)--perhaps to Homo habilis , who lived 2.5 million years ago, or even eons earlier."

That may seem like a WAG, but it's starting to sound like many of the habits we're seeing aren't new, but possibly previously suppressed. I really don't think he's suggesting that you learn something instantaneously, but rather re-interpret based on something you already know. That falls right in line.

I'm curious... that book is $12 on amazon. I might just order it.

[tonyhind86]

These short episodes are killing me... Need MOAR

Same