Saul's "Illness"

[Destiny]

What do you think is going on with Saul? Why does Burt not trust him? Is he secretly a zombie? Did the bullet pass through Tommy and then hit Saul, thus infecting him? What are your theories on what's wrong with him?

[Beaumont]

He's probably got the big Z and will kill everyone in the tower.

[nikvoodoo]

Personally, I don't think he has the Big Z as Beaumont put it. We've seen how the smallest amount of Zombie blood turns you (see: Tommy). And that happened immediately. With the amount of blood that should have sprayed out of Tommy when he was shot I would imagine something would have entered the wound in Saul's shoulder, or been carried by the bullet into him. I'm also throwing a bit of stock Tanya's way. The Colony trusts her to screen potential infected humans trying to enter, and she says Saul has a nasty infection.

All that said, would I be surprised if Saul turns? Not at all.

[Beaumont]

Personally, I don't think he has the Big Z as Beaumont put it. We've seen how the smallest amount of Zombie blood turns you (see: Tommy). And that happened immediately. With the amount of blood that should have sprayed out of Tommy when he was shot I would imagine something would have entered the wound in Saul's shoulder, or been carried by the bullet into him. I'm also throwing a bit of stock Tanya's way. The Colony trusts her to screen potential infected humans trying to enter, and she says Saul has a nasty infection.

All that said, would I be surprised if Saul turns? Not at all.

You like "The Big Z"? I gotta copyright that and start a series.

[Wicked Sid]

You like "The Big Z"? I gotta copyright that and start a series.

Ha! Big Z, reminds of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. There was a Wookie whose nickname was Big Z.

[Teethingbiscuit]

perhaps we have an immunity. By we I mean Saul is immune to the virus/bacteria/parasite. I'm flip-flopping on whether the bullet passed through or not. Tommy was a "Smartie" and may have faked the shot? Ahh, Got to listen to episode again. Teeth

[cPT.cAPSLOCK]

I doubt if Saul is infected with the zombie-virus.

As nikvoodoo mentioned, Tommy turned really quickly when he got infected. Saul has been sick really long.
Also, even a small wound that gets infected can kill you if not treated, especially in a dirty environment with little to no medical supplies like in the Tower.

[lectio]

Ah, but take into account Saul's mountain division services. He's been around. Isn't the story that he's served in some elite units? Rather makes me wonder if it opens a channel for a theory that he's received some kind of partial immunity to the virus because of a vaccination received while in service. Bring Radon Labs online with a functioning biotech lab and Tanya's field experience, and you could have yourself with a nice story arc on the search for a cure - or at least a vaccine.

[lectio]

Hmm...or...if the bullet passed through Tommy and into Saul, it might have carried virus with it. The heat of the bullet normally is enough to kill viruses and bacteria, I believe (when Giffords was shot in Arizona, one of her doctors was quoted as saying that they'd leave the bullet fragments in her brain alone, as they'd have been more than likely sterile from the heat of the bullet itself). This virus is a baddie...so I wonder if the heat of the bullet might have only attenuated it (weakened it) rather than kill it outright. Some vaccines contain attenuated virus in them - weakened by heat so that the virus can't reproduce easily, but enough that the body mounts a vigorous enough immune response to achieve the vaccination effect.

So I wonder if it's possible that Saul is mounting enough of an immune response to resist full-blown infection? If he survives the illness, he'd have antibodies circulating in his blood that could be used as the basis for a vaccine - even a crude one. Burt's old enough to have been inoculated for small pox. Maybe he's thinking the same thing...

[Stavie]

I'm pretty sure it was Kelly who described Saul's illness as consisting of a fluctuating fever, which was confirmed by Tanya later to be his body's reaction to an infection. Is it possible that the bullet did pass through Tommy thereby infecting Saul, but because his body is reacting to the infection caused by the wound it is temporarily fighting off the zombie infection as well?

[RamblinMike]

Could he have been saved by the sheer amount of blood coming out of him? If the bullet sterilized, and the blood was a-flowing, he may not have had a chance to get infected. I'm not a doctor, so maybe that's bogus. Just sayin'.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Burt totally missed Tommy and hit Saul. "I guess you're not that good'a shot after all." Saul says prior to passing out. It wasn't a through and though. The bullet was lodged in him. They have enough oral antibiotics from the other apartments to keep him stable until they can get something stronger. The wound has been cleaned also.

[Teethingbiscuit]

Is that why Burt doesn't trust Saul? He insulted his aim?

[manintrees]

My feeling is that Burt didn't miss, and the bullet went through Tommy and into Saul. Saul is somehow immune to the effects of the virus but is now a carrier (remember the wife from 28 Weeks Later?). Saul came may have also come into contact with Big Z fluids when he stabbed that one in the garage and didn't leave his knife behind when Micheal asked him to.

(use of 'Big Z' on assumed courtesy of Beaumont)

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Listen to the episode again. Burt missed Tommy. Simple. No gore, ichor or blood. Saul didn't has used his knife twice on creatures. Just getting stuff on you won't change you. It has to get into your bloodstream.

[manintrees]

Listen to the episode again. Burt missed Tommy. Simple. No gore, ichor or blood. Saul didn't has used his knife twice on creatures. Just getting stuff on you won't change you. It has to get into your bloodstream.

I thought Burt later mentioned (around the time of the bullet-ectomy surgery) that he couldn't have missed, or was at least second guessing himself. There's just something about Saul's condition that doesn't sit well with me.

[Funny Muffins]

The only thing that makes me think he didn't shoot through Tommy first was the fact that they described the bullet as being so deep into his shoulder.
But it is troubling that the bullet didn't make it completely through...

Saul must be some sorta thick skinned mofo...

XD

[nikvoodoo]

The only thing that makes me think he didn't shoot through Tommy first was the fact that they described the bullet as being so deep into his shoulder.
But it is troubling that the bullet didn't make it completely through...

Saul must be some sorta thick skinned mofo...

XD

I'll never pretend to be a ballistics expert, but Burt shot Saul with a Desert Eagle .50....If that bullet didn't go through Tommy, I'll be shocked. From what I know of Desert Eagle's: they are brutality to anything the wielder aims at. Long and short of it, the bullet was found in flesh. There has been no mention of a broken bone for Saul. It had to have been slowed down by Tommy's body first in order to not exit Saul.

[Funny Muffins]

I'll never pretend to be a ballistics expert, but Burt shot Saul with a Desert Eagle .50....

Hate to correct ya Nik, but give 14-2 a closer listen specifically the line following: 9:50 mark.
It really makes it hard for me to believe that Shirley got em.


A .50 round would REMOVE his shoulder.
This is decent an highlights some ballistics in common rounds. Notice a .50 is not on this site, but as you can imagine the damage is much worse... (http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm)

He should be using a 9mm when he got Saul...?
Debate!

[nikvoodoo]

Hate to correct ya Nik, but give 14-2 a closer listen specifically the line following: 9:50 mark.
It really makes it hard for me to believe that Shirley got em.


A .50 round would REMOVE his shoulder.
This is decent an highlights some ballistics in common rounds. Notice a .50 is not on this site, but as you can imagine the damage is much worse... (http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm)

He should be using a 9mm when he got Saul...?
Debate!

Correct all you want when I'm wrong. I didn't have access to the episodes when I was posting for most of this evening, so I was trying to go off memory and I missed.

[Ra1th]

Im dead certain saul wasnt shot with shirley. Cause there is a moment during sauls surgery where burt mentions that saul is lucky burt was Out of shirley rounds. And angel mentions hey saul ur lucky burt didnt have a bigger gun to shot u with. Im certain burt jst used a 9mm

[nikvoodoo]

Im dead certain saul wasnt shot with shirley. Cause there is a moment during sauls surgery where burt mentions that saul is lucky burt was Out of shirley rounds. And angel mentions hey saul ur lucky burt didnt have a bigger gun to shot u with. Im certain burt jst used a 9mm

I'm dead certain he wasn't too. Like I said, I posted without episode reference. I forgot he didn't have shirley rounds again until they found Bill's stockpile in the elevator.

[Funny Muffins]

Which feeds back to the problem a 9mm should penetrate that distance under his collarbone and exit his backside.
Was it a two for one shot?!

What if we lose Saul...
:(



You cant be lucky all the time...

[Ra1th]

I'm dead certain he wasn't too. Like I said, I posted without episode reference. I forgot he didn't have shirley rounds again until they found Bill's stockpile in the elevator.

Oh i didnt even see ur second post. Im on an iphkne and this mobile viewer sucks

[HomeGrown]

I side with the theory that the bullet was hot enough to kill the pathogen, and his current symptoms are his immune system going into overdrive to find the right antibodies to clear out the dead particles. Once he heals, his immunity will also make him olfactorily invisible to the zombies, so he can go infiltrate the stadium and stab the leader in the eye while he "sleeps". :)

[manintrees]

Hey, what about that dream Pegs had where Saul said "you're not going to shoot me again, are you?"

*I'm at *ahem* work and going from memory so please excuse me if I'm incorrect.

[Wicked Sid]

Hey, what about that dream Pegs had where Saul said "you're not going to shoot me again, are you?"

*I'm at *ahem* work and going from memory so please excuse me if I'm incorrect.

That was Latch (John), all is forgiven.

[manintrees]

Ah yes, well that makes more sense then. Thanks.

[yarri]

I doubt if Saul is infected with the zombie-virus.

As nikvoodoo mentioned, Tommy turned really quickly when he got infected. Saul has been sick really long.
Also, even a small wound that gets infected can kill you if not treated, especially in a dirty environment with little to no medical supplies like in the Tower.
Your exactly correct I was cringing when they left the "tools" in the fire and not one mention of how they cleaned them and what with.

[yarri]

Which feeds back to the problem a 9mm should penetrate that distance under his collarbone and exit his backside. <br />
Was it a two for one shot?! <br />
<br />
What if we lose Saul... <br />
<br />
:( <br />
I refuse to believe...

[lectio]

The fire would have been enough to sterilize the hammer, I think (and to provide enough heat to cauterize the wound).

[yarri]

If it were red hot which I think it was. Then you end up with infection from the burn itself. That wound was not cleaned well and they used kitchen gloves and other things to protect themselves from the blood. I don't remember if they were clean gloves. So nasty. ewww.

[manintrees]

From the description of the procedure that Saul underwent, he is at a massive risk of infection. A blood infection will kill you. Even in modern hospitals, blood infections are very scary. The Tower residents did the best they could with what tools and knowledge they had but Saul is in big trouble. Cauterizing done the way they did is going to leave Saul in bad shape. It may have stopped the bleeding but OMG is he going to pay for it via scarring and other damage. Like Yarri said, the burn could become infected incredibly easily.

Remember that scene in Saving Private Ryan when the medic (Wade) got hit with machine gun fire? They were constantly dumping Sulfa Powder on him in an effort to minimize the chance of infection.

[yarri]

I kept yelling at my IPod.. Use the booze on his arm not his face! Anything to flush the site. It would have hurt like heck but not much more then cutting on him like they did or burning. I am hoping he has some range of motion left if he survives the infection.

:: yes I freely admit I talk to the story. I get that into it. :)

[MrScott101]

Going back a few pages someone mentioned the possibility of the vaccinations that Saul may have received when in various special forces ops, that and in thinking the "The Big Z" is a highly mutated very strong virus (quite a bit by today standards) considering how fast acting it is. The situation of the bullet heat disinfecting the blood that it had going through Tommy before Saul would have merely weakened it enough to be slowed down. Thereby giving Saul's white blood cells a chance in conjunction with his vaccines to in a sense create a cure or immunity to "The Big Z".

Yep lots o fancy werds there, but you get what I mean. The big thing is you can't consider the Z virus a normal virus just because of how fast acting it is.

[yarri]

Going back a few pages someone mentioned the possibility of the vaccinations that Saul may have received when in various special forces ops, that and in thinking the "The Big Z" is a highly mutated very strong virus (quite a bit by today standards) considering how fast acting it is. The situation of the bullet heat disinfecting the blood that it had going through Tommy before Saul would have merely weakened it enough to be slowed down. Thereby giving Saul's white blood cells a chance in conjunction with his vaccines to in a sense create a cure or immunity to "The Big Z".

Yep lots o fancy werds there, but you get what I mean. The big thing is you can't consider the Z virus a normal virus just because of how fast acting it is.

I think the fastest acting virus in the world would be either Ebola or the Hauta virus. Ebola can get you in 2 to 21 days(got that from the CDC)

freshly fired shell casings of semi auto weapons are hot enough to melt plastic. I would figure the lead that passed though Tommy was hotter. Enough so to destroy the blood on it I would think.
I think its highly unlikely that Saul's illness is a response to a challenge to his immune system from big Z more a possibility of a brutal primitive surgery in grossly unclean circumstances and Saul going septic. (it still messes with my mind listening to that part of the pod cast heheh)

Vaccines are designed for specific types of virus. (lordy stick with me here I am pulling stuff out of my brain from nursing school and that was a long time ago) Lets look at the flu virus for example. We get a new one every year keyed for specific strains. one strain = one vaccine. multiple vaccines that are given in the military (I had an ass load of them ) are keyed for specific things. The Big Z is so different that the possible Tommy blood on the bullet and the vaccines are probably not going to trigger an immune response in Saul making him a walking vaccine for the others.

Side note: Vaccines are also subject to how a person responds to them. Example: me. You know as a child you get the MMR (measles mumps and rubella) vaccine? Well this vaccine is repeated for a number of reasons. 1. you have not had it. You don't titer to it ( titer means active number markers in your blood stating your body will fight if it is challenged with the virus) I have had this vaccine series done six times. I don't respond to the virus at all. We don't know how Saul responded to his vaccines.

Another note: MrScott you have stimulated my brain I thank you! Here is a question to you... with all the different Zombies could there be different strains of the virus???

[VeritableHero]

I think the fastest acting virus in the world... (snip) Good lord, these are some nice insights on which to think. Added "rep" for that post. Multiple strains of the virus would make sense given the wide variety of zombie types that are present in the We're Alive world.

[Hollomandious]

My feeling is that Burt didn't miss, and the bullet went through Tommy and into Saul. Saul is somehow immune to the effects of the virus but is now a carrier (remember the wife from 28 Weeks Later?). Saul came may have also come into contact with Big Z fluids when he stabbed that one in the garage and didn't leave his knife behind when Micheal asked him to.

What if, Saul is partly immune. Maybe in a similar way to Ink. Where Ink, is evil crazy homicidal and such, maybe Saul becomes the super good zombie.

eh?

[yarri]

What if, Saul is partly immune. Maybe in a similar way to Ink. Where Ink, is evil crazy homicidal and such, maybe Saul becomes the super good zombie.

eh?

He would have turned in the garage. It only took poor Tommy a scratch a little open sore and a drop of zombie blood

[Hollomandious]

He would have turned in the garage. It only took poor Tommy a scratch a little open sore and a drop of zombie blood

Ahhhh.. But maybe tommy didn't have that immunity I am speculating about.

[MrScott101]

He would have turned in the garage. It only took poor Tommy a scratch a little open sore and a drop of zombie blood

But Saul didn't get any blood in an open wound in the garage or did he get any on his face??

[yarri]

But Saul didn't get any blood in an open wound in the garage or did he get any on his face??

He got no blood on him at all in the garage. When Burt shot Tommy Saul got some of Tommy's blood on his face. I am pretty sure.

[nikvoodoo]

He got no blood on him at all in the garage. When Burt shot Tommy Saul got some of Tommy's blood on his face. I am pretty sure.

Correct. He wiped the blade off but said he got nothing on him

[MrScott101]

He would have turned in the garage. It only took poor Tommy a scratch a little open sore and a drop of zombie blood

Point I was getting at was yarri said he would have turned in the garage and I was merely pointing out that he wouldn't have due to no open wounds or getting blood on him as per knife incident

[yarri]

Point I was getting at was yarri said he would have turned in the garage and I was merely pointing out that he wouldn't have due to no open wounds or getting blood on him as per knife incident

Sorry!!! miss read your post. Note to self do not type without glasses. If Saul got blood in him he would have turned

[Wicked Sid]

Point I was getting at was yarri said he would have turned in the garage and I was merely pointing out that he wouldn't have due to no open wounds or getting blood on him as per knife incident

Well actually, it is possible that he could be infected at that incident. The virus/bacteria/nanobot could have spread to his fingertip which then it only takes an eye rub or fingernail bite to unknowingly ingest it. It doesn't take much to get infected by any type of foreign body.

[yarri]

Well actually, it is possible that he could be infected at that incident. The virus/bacteria/nanobot could have spread to his fingertip which then it only takes an eye rub or fingernail bite to unknowingly ingest it. It doesn't take much to get infected by any type of foreign body.

we referring to the garage? If he had been infected then he would have turned by now. Its not a bacteria. You can fight bacteria. Antibiotics can be made for a bacteria. Saul doesn't strike me as being dumb enough to rub his eyes with blood on his hands he had medic training and part of that would be about how to protect your self from cross transfers.

[Wicked Sid]

Yarri, you kind of had the same problem with my post as you did with Scott's.

But, you are correct.

[yarri]

@Wicked Sid

I am so so so blind without my glasses. LOL

[redwolf]

I think maybe he has an immunity, just because all the things he's gone through before saving lady when getting the rigg, he's always been scratched up getting blood on him. what about the time on the roof when the smart zombie tore through his pants and burt wakes up and shoots it. He got blood on him then and was fine

[yarri]

Red, he had no open wounds prior to that. The smart zombie didn't scratch him or drip blood on him it only tore his pants. The blood from when he got lady was his own. He landed back down on a bottle of whiskey. He's never really been hurt before.

[redwolf]

I know maybe his "immunity" is he's just damn lucky ha a fan favorite his passing or zombification would have a huge impact. I really hope nothing happens to him he's my favorite character

[yarri]

I know maybe his "immunity" is he's just damn lucky ha a fan favorite his passing or zombification would have a huge impact. I really hope nothing happens to him he's my favorite character

I don't think Kc plays favorites. He is brilliantly evil and twisted. But Saul is my favorite too. *points to the blue tag on her signature* Fan girl at my advanced age.. who knew?

[redwolf]

it reminds me of lost, if he dies itll be like when charlie dies in lost.
We're alive reminds me of Lost mixed with The Walking Dead

[yarri]

No not lost LOL.. Saul can't die he has some repopulating to be doing with lizzy

[Walrusgus]

I don't think Kc plays favorites. He is brilliantly evil and twisted. But Saul is my favorite too. *points to the blue tag on her signature* Fan girl at my advanced age.. who knew?

So brilliantly twisted and evil... :)

[Beaumont]

I haven't gone through all the episodes again but I was trying to think if any of the characters had been turned into a zombie. I don't think we've had any characters return as a "zombie" yet and was just wondering what it takes to do so. Is it from a bite or the blood or was what we heard about in the arena some kind of ritual to infect people.

[kafu288]

Tommy got turned. I believe he came into contact with zombie blood so that was why they thought Saul might turn.

I think it would be from a bite or from zombie blood entering your blood stream but the biting seems to be too inconsistent because sometimes they just eat them, or at least that's what it seems. The zombies aren't dead which suggests that they have some sort of brain function so maybe they can choose whether to eat someone or turn them. It wouldn't require a high level of brain function because they could just go off instinct based on the situation, eating them when hungry and turning them otherwise?

Probably wrong but that's half the fun of this series trying to guess the secrets and what happens next.

[cPT.cAPSLOCK]

The infection definitely requires physical contact, and it happens fast. Otherwise, the infection wouldn't spread as fast (causing the massive 'riots' in chapter 1). Also, look at the speed at which Tommy turned.
Either way, a lot of how people turn has been discussed in the thread regarding Saul's illness among others. Let's keep that discussion in the threads where it already came up.
The conclusion usually is that infection requires zombie-fluids to have entered your bloodstream.

The only character I can recall that returned as a Zombie, is the commander. However, he didn't really play a major part. It might happen sometime, but I think that'd be kinda cliché. Kc can do better moral or emotional dilemmas than that ;)

[Beaumont]

Oh wow you're right! I really need to re listen to all the episodes while waiting for the next episode. I think the lack of zombies has made me question a lot about the zombie mythology we've established so far. Thanks for the quick response.

[Eviebae]

The zombies seem to have a pack mentality. They attacked the freeway en masse and like to hang around other zombies--establishing dens. I'm so curious about the inner life of a zombie; remember how the General or Commander (not sure which) zombie looked like he was standing at attention? Why?

[Guts Malone]

Saul is a Hybrid Zombie

[kafu288]

No the hybrid zombie is Skittles/Bill Roberts/Ink. Seriously, I think he has multiple personality disorder and schizophrenia and all that. One of his personalitys got turned into a zombie. The other ones didn't. I think.

[Eviebae]

One of his personalitys got turned into a zombie. The other ones didn't. I think.

I LIKE that idea! I don't think it's going to pan out to be correct, but I like the idea.

[MissThing]

I was also thinking that Saul may have immunity because the blood from Tommy and the Jumper didn't change him. But I think it happend way before all that. We never figured out how he survived when the zombies were attacking him at the fueiling station. At first they thought it was the whiskey but they figured out later that masking their smells didn't really slow the zombies down. AND when he was escaping from the mallers on his motor bike he mentioned that the zombies didn't really chase him like they chased the mallers. Idk, little things just make me think he's immuned. I hope he is :) I like some of the theories above about his mom stumbling on a possible cure. Can't wait to find out...just don't kill Saul and I'll be happy.

[Wicked Sid]

The fueling station incident was before the blood spray, therefore his 'immunity' would be non-existent (He's had no exposure to the blood other than in the parking garage). Alcohol has different effects on scents and pheromones than, let's say onions, and so, the incidents at the Fueling Station and the Water Plant are mutually exclusive in terms of zombie noses.

There is also alcohol in perfumes and colognes which is most likely why Victor had used them to escape at 'Outpost 1'.

[DeRose05]

I think everyone here has over looked something. Saul has a dog ,"Lady". Im not sure this was planned out of not, but humans and dogs have an odd connection. That connection is cross immunity on certain illness. What that basically means is that the dog could have given saul and anyone else that plays with lady some sort of immunity. The downside to this is, that means saul would have some sort of canine illness. (the natural dog immunity would be genetically linked to one of the diseases that both species share.) My best guess towards that would be Q fever which has an incubation time of 9-40 days. Saul also had the majority of the signs of this. To add more strength to this idea, Lizzie has been rather ill, with most of the symptoms of Q fever. Oh and Q fever is found most often in California and Vets (sauls mother) have the highest chance of exposure. I could go on and on about how he could contract this from the dog, but ill spare you all the wall-o-text. : )

One more little side note. The US military wanted to make Q fever into a Bio Weapon, in the 1950s.

[COsurvivor]

I would say Saul's illness was a combination of problems from the gunshot and just their crappy eating habits. You guys forget that malnutrition weakens your immune system and that is the cause of most deaths as your body cannot fight infections.

I just think his illness is nothing special, just a way to give the actor time to do some other things in his life... You know something that pays?

[yarri]

I would say Saul's illness was a combination of problems from the gunshot and just their crappy eating habits. You guys forget that malnutrition weakens your immune system and that is the cause of most deaths as your body cannot fight infections.

I just think his illness is nothing special, just a way to give the actor time to do some other things in his life... You know something that pays?

I had to give this post rep.. Its what I have been saying all along. The picture that goes with the surgery was so nasty I still get nausea just looking at it. It was barbaric and had questionable techniques for sterilization. He was ripe for an infection.

[fricatcow]

Personally, I don't think he has the Big Z as Beaumont put it. We've seen how the smallest amount of Zombie blood turns you (see: Tommy). And that happened immediately. With the amount of blood that should have sprayed out of Tommy when he was shot I would imagine something would have entered the wound in Saul's shoulder, or been carried by the bullet into him. I'm also throwing a bit of stock Tanya's way. The Colony trusts her to screen potential infected humans trying to enter, and she says Saul has a nasty infection.

All that said, would I be surprised if Saul turns? Not at all.

i would agree with VooDoo here if something was going on Saul's mom would have said something. yeah she's his mom but it is a cruel world and where the needs of the many out weigh the need of the few

[yarri]

i would agree with VooDoo here if something was going on Saul's mom would have said something. yeah she's his mom but it is a cruel world and where the needs of the many out weigh the need of the few

lets also remember the bullet he got nailed with was red hot when it hit him any blood on it would have been vaporized. I think I looked it up in another thread. The infection was due to shoddy sterilization technique and poor care of the wound afterwards