Female Characters on the Show

[ShdwHolly]

I am a big fan of the walking dead in theory; the actual show is another story. I thought I felt differently about ’We’re Alive’, but as time goes on I am beginning to see how similar the two shows are, especially in their portrayal of women. Why is it that women are always portrayed as stereotypes – unable to help themselves or stand on their own two feet?

I can’t stand Pegs – whiny, irrational (who lets personal issues stand in the way of SURVIVING the apocalypse by learning to use a gun??!! Oh right, a woman. Of course.) Neither she nor Kelly are capable of any real decision making without the help of a male leader. And WTF happened to Hope? She went from sweet blind girl to incessant nag.

The moment a woman does begin to claim some power or strength in the show, she is immediately degraded by being portrayed as crazy or a bitch. We see this with the only ‘strong’ women in the entire show – Riley and CJ. I really had high hopes for Riley, she was interesting, courageous and resourceful. I think my disillusion with the show really began as her melt down did. She tried to kill herself? She’s suddenly an alcoholic? WHY?!? She has made it through so much, she used to be a soldier and NOW she has a break. Seriously?! CJ is also a great leader, but then she is sexualized and her obsession with Saul makes her seem like a nice combination of crazy/bitch (she tries to seduce a man searching for his pregnant girlfriend for pete’s sake!).

I understand the male characters have military experience and this makes them natural leaders in any war-like scenario, but Scratch has 0 experience and has been more or less leading a group of raucous prisoners with relative success (if success is defined by still being alive). She, of course, is portrayed as the ultimate bitch.

Has anyone else out there, male or female, noticed the same thing? Why can’t a woman be a Saul or a Michael without being crazy and/or a bitch?! Ghhhhhaaahh!

[Gnex]

Hmmmm that escalated quickly.......

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

I am a big fan of the walking dead in theory; the actual show is another story. I thought I felt differently about ’We’re Alive’, but as time goes on I am beginning to see how similar the two shows are, especially in their portrayal of women. Why is it that women are always portrayed as stereotypes – unable to help themselves or stand on their own two feet?

I can’t stand Pegs – whiny, irrational (who lets personal issues stand in the way of SURVIVING the apocalypse by learning to use a gun??!! Oh right, a woman. Of course.) Neither she nor Kelly are capable of any real decision making without the help of a male leader. And WTF happened to Hope? She went from sweet blind girl to incessant nag.

The moment a woman does begin to claim some power or strength in the show, she is immediately degraded by being portrayed as crazy or a bitch. We see this with the only ‘strong’ women in the entire show – Riley and CJ. I really had high hopes for Riley, she was interesting, courageous and resourceful. I think my disillusion with the show really began as her melt down did. She tried to kill herself? She’s suddenly an alcoholic? WHY?!? She has made it through so much, she used to be a soldier and NOW she has a break. Seriously?! CJ is also a great leader, but then she is sexualized and her obsession with Saul makes her seem like a nice combination of crazy/bitch (she tries to seduce a man searching for his pregnant girlfriend for pete’s sake!).

I understand the male characters have military experience and this makes them natural leaders in any war-like scenario, but Scratch has 0 experience and has been more or less leading a group of raucous prisoners with relative success (if success is defined by still being alive). She, of course, is portrayed as the ultimate bitch.

Has anyone else out there, male or female, noticed the same thing? Why can’t a woman be a Saul or a Michael without being crazy and/or a bitch?! Ghhhhhaaahh!

Well, maybe we can skip gender studies class for today because nearly each and every character on the has shown characteristics of a neurological wreck - regardless of a specific gender.
Besides, no one will dispute that Datu IS the whiny scream queen of WA.

[GeneraLee]

I am a big fan of the walking dead in theory; the actual show is another story. I thought I felt differently about ’We’re Alive’, but as time goes on I am beginning to see how similar the two shows are, especially in their portrayal of women. Why is it that women are always portrayed as stereotypes – unable to help themselves or stand on their own two feet?

I can’t stand Pegs – whiny, irrational (who lets personal issues stand in the way of SURVIVING the apocalypse by learning to use a gun??!! Oh right, a woman. Of course.) Neither she nor Kelly are capable of any real decision making without the help of a male leader. And WTF happened to Hope? She went from sweet blind girl to incessant nag.

The moment a woman does begin to claim some power or strength in the show, she is immediately degraded by being portrayed as crazy or a bitch. We see this with the only ‘strong’ women in the entire show – Riley and CJ. I really had high hopes for Riley, she was interesting, courageous and resourceful. I think my disillusion with the show really began as her melt down did. She tried to kill herself? She’s suddenly an alcoholic? WHY?!? She has made it through so much, she used to be a soldier and NOW she has a break. Seriously?! CJ is also a great leader, but then she is sexualized and her obsession with Saul makes her seem like a nice combination of crazy/bitch (she tries to seduce a man searching for his pregnant girlfriend for pete’s sake!).

I understand the male characters have military experience and this makes them natural leaders in any war-like scenario, but Scratch has 0 experience and has been more or less leading a group of raucous prisoners with relative success (if success is defined by still being alive). She, of course, is portrayed as the ultimate bitch.

Has anyone else out there, male or female, noticed the same thing? Why can’t a woman be a Saul or a Michael without being crazy and/or a bitch?! Ghhhhhaaahh!

I don't think that any character is immune to flaws.

Michael- TONS of flaws, makes mistakes all the time. Has been a whiney-butt many times.
Saul- Very selfish, heart over head most of the time.
Datu- Needs not saying, but actually a VERY strong character who has been through a lot, but externalizes everything instead of just internalizing as everyone else. (Hense why people think he's whiney)
Angel- Was very self-centered as well, but then got better, then... well, you know.
Burt- A very BAD leader. He proved this many times.
Victor- Best friend you could have. Not many negatives with him. Very loyal.

And your female assessment I think it only partial.
Riley- Yes, she's angry, but for good reason. She's still strong, but a lot of her flaws are due to the trauma she went through. She's strong enough to walk away from people she cares about because she thinks there's a greater threat, as does Burt. Could be for personal reasons, but it's not a "safe" place to be.
Pegs- Yes, everyone complains about her, but she is strong in her own ways. She single handedly is feeding everyone, and making sure they survive. She might not pick up a gun, but who cares? Gun handling or killing doesn't mean someone's strong.
Lizzy- Very strong female character, stood up to Scratch in the threat of death even.
Tanya- Constantly puts herself in harms way to help other people. Always there to help anyone else, above her own safety.
CJ- I think everyone has a very wrong perspective of her at times. She's extremely strong, organized, etc... just because she was interested in someone doesn't mean she's any less strong. She's strong enough to kick someone out that she cares for, even though it's not a popular opinion, and that was after being lied to and deceived.
Hope- She's a teenager. A blind one, who is struggling with having a purpose in the world. How could you NOT be pessimistic?


Anyone I missed?
Yes, everyone is flawed, and everyone has different strengths. That's what makes them people. No one on the show is perfect.

[Eviebae]

It seems to me you are hypersensitive about the flaws of the female characters, but overlook the portrayed flaws of the male characters.


Hypersensitive or just sensitive?
As in, aware of stuff you might not be?

It's possible to have blind spots with regards to character dynamics without being sexist/evil/mean--just look up gender bias in the classroom. Inequalities of all types can be so culturally ingrained that they are invisible. Nice/good people can be "programmed" with expectations and feel really uncomfortable/unhappy when those expectations are fiddled with.

Point is, no matter if you are a male or female, you may not see it and you may not wish to see it. Try talking about it without shutting her down or denying her outright.

[Litmaster]

Hypersensitive or just sensitive?
As in, aware of stuff you might not be?

It's possible to have blind spots with regards to character dynamics without being sexist/evil/mean--just look up gender bias in the classroom. Inequalities of all types can be so culturally ingrained that they are invisible. Nice/good people can be "programmed" with expectations and feel really uncomfortable/unhappy when those expectations are fiddled with.

Point is, no matter if you are a male or female, you may not see it and you may not wish to see it. Try talking about it without shutting her down or denying her outright.

Who was shutting anyone down? I even complimented her on her post:

Nice post

And Evie, your point about 'blind spots' is well taken, but you could just as well claim 'blind spots' with regards to character dynamics for any demographic, no matter how you want to slice it:

Men could complain that Datu is not macho enough

Hispanics could complain about how Victor is not taken seriously as a leader

Gays could complain that Riley's alleged lesbianism is too understated and "in the closet"

Those opposed to foul language could complain about the abundance of swearing used by the characters

Brown-eyed people could complain about overabundance of blue- and green-eyed characters in the story

Postal workers could complain about how their career is underrepresented in the story

Extreme pacifists could complain that the military is glorified in We're Alive, etc.

I'm only being partly facetious with these examples, because my point is serious: what we are really talking about here are differences in perspective. Of course different people are going to be more sensitive to different aspects of this or any story. And as such, they will be relatively less sensitive to other aspects (what you call 'blind spots'). This is just stating the obvious, but to choose one of these perspectives to criticize (e.g., the perceived misrepresentation of female characters in the story) more so than others speaks more about the listener's values and priorities than the author's, in my opinion.

The author has to do what he feels is best for the story, and all of us, as the audience, are free to react to it however we wish. If this story seems to chauvinistic for our tastes, then I'm sure there are plenty of other feminist stories out there which would be more to our liking.:nik:


p.s.
Having said that, when people communicate their disparate perspectives on a forum such as this, it can greatly add to the appreciation of the story overall. This is why I thought ShdwHolly's post was "nice", even though I don't fully agree with her point. I hope that my disagreement does not discourage her participation here, for I feel that having multiple perspectives voiced enriches the discussion much more than unilateral opinions.

So please keep posting, ShdwHolly... whether you agree with me or not!

[Osiris]

Everyone deserves a voice.

[Gooer]

I don't know what kind of pacifist female you are expecting in the Zombpocalypse... but that type of person is most likely already dead. :nik:

.......Like Pegs.....?

[Gooer]

While i feel that Pegs IS the whiny, helpless maiden in distress, she adds diversity to the group, and while she may seem pathetic for the trauma of killing someone, i'm guessing to someone that is against major violence, killing someone would be very hard to deal with, even in self defense. To me, Riley, Tanya, CJ and Kelly are also really strong characters. CJ IS the top dog in the Colony; people go to HER for advice, not the other way around. Riley, is headstrong and confident, but was only driven to the alcohol abuse/suicide because she had endured too much mentally; thinking she lost Lizzy, and the death of Angel - what she presumed to have lost her best friend and her love (which ever you want to put them as), as it said in the show. Tanya, now, she's an independent black woman who don't need no man! But all jokes aside, she is another strong character that can question whatever someone says - be it Michael or CJ. And Kelly, while she was a major bitch in season one, she changed a lot over the show, and i like her now (i pretty much hated her in season one). I think each character is perfect for what they do, even with all of their flaws. No one is perfect, and Kc does a great job on showing it.

[Osiris]

Wait... Tanya's black? Do... wait... have we stopped being PC?

I think we should all take a moment, and a deep breath, and not jump on someone's tits on their first post. Yes? Yes, I am looking directly at you, Lit.

[Litmaster]

.......Like Pegs.....?

Well... soon to be dead. Hopefully.



I think we should all take a moment, and a deep breath, and not jump on someone's tits on their first post. Yes? Yes, I am looking directly at you, Lit.

Osi, I was NOT 'jumping on anyone's tits'... come on now. I certainly hope I haven't scared her off, and reading back over what I wrote I don't think I was being a dick about my response. It just so happened her first post expressed a strong opinion--which is great, everyone is entitled to one-- but there are really only two ways to respond: agreement or disagreement, right?

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Wait... Tanya's black? Do... wait... have we stopped being PC?

I think we should all take a moment, and a deep breath, and not jump on someone's tits on their first post. Yes? Yes, I am looking directly at you, Lit.


Totally off-topic, sorry:


http://www.snotr.com/embed/3726

[Gooer]

Well... soon to be dead. Hopefully.

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

But i think she will...

[Gooer]

I think that Riley is the female version of Saul, and CJ is a female version of Michael, but (as much as it pains me) is slightly better than he is.....

[Osiris]

Well, maybe we can skip gender studies class for today because nearly each and every character on the has shown characteristics of a neurological wreck - regardless of a specific gender.
Besides, no one will dispute that Datu IS the whiny scream queen of WA.

Why would you skip the point of her post? Oh, you're just trying to take a shot at her. Let's not do that shit, yeah? Welcoming arms. Welcoming.

[Eviebae]

And Evie, your point about 'blind spots' is well taken, but you could just as well claim 'blind spots' with regards to character dynamics for any demographic, no matter how you want to slice it:
[/COLOR]

That's what I was saying.
It's an issue complicated by the fact this is the way our brain works. It's the factory default to use a sort of shorthand when dealing with "other." It's faster; as in we don't get et or kilt.

I think I've finally decided how Pegs story arc could have played out without being so annoying (at least to me). It's just such a stretch that she could have seen what she saw and not been convinced of the need to defend herself or others. She could have tried and not been able to do it--had an anxiety attack or just frozen. She could have done fine on targets but her hands could have shaken or she could have had a jerk to the side when shooting at zomboids.

As to females in the story: I agree that there are some excellent examples of feminine strength in the story. There's some interesting twinning of story arcs (Saul and Riley's searches, Kelly and Datu's non-traditional (gender) reactions). The females' stories do tend to happen in the background or in the past. Michael and Saul are the main heroes in a way that none of the females are.

[GeneraLee]

The flip side is, if everyone was tough, macho, and a killer, then no one would be interesting or real. How can you tell a story like this without the wide gamut of character strengths and weaknesses.

[Eviebae]

The flip side is, if everyone was tough, macho, and a killer, then no one would be interesting or real. How can you tell a story like this without the wide gamut of character strengths and weaknesses.

I also like how people just have bad luck.

[Osiris]

That's what I was saying.
It's an issue complicated by the fact this is the way our brain works. It's the factory default to use a sort of shorthand when dealing with "other." It's faster; as in we don't get et or kilt.

I think I've finally decided how Pegs story arc could have played out without being so annoying (at least to me). It's just such a stretch that she could have seen what she saw and not been convinced of the need to defend herself or others. She could have tried and not been able to do it--had an anxiety attack or just frozen. She could have done fine on targets but her hands could have shaken or she could have had a jerk to the side when shooting at zomboids.

As to females in the story: I agree that there are some excellent examples of feminine strength in the story. There's some interesting twinning of story arcs (Saul and Riley's searches, Kelly and Datu's non-traditional (gender) reactions). The females' stories do tend to happen in the background or in the past. Michael and Saul are the main heroes in a way that none of the females are.

Define and explain Riley's arc.

[tonyhind86]

Define and explain Riley's arc.

Rileys arc:

Fuck it - get drunk

[Eviebae]

Define and explain Riley's arc.

In the context of comparing Saul's and Riley's arc or just Riley's?
::Putting on my tin hat::
:tinfoil:
I'm not an English major but looking at Saul and Riley; they have both had (have) a heroes journey within a larger heroes journey ala Joseph Campbell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces).

A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.

They both struck out with another person on a journey in response to the loss of someone they love/cared for after a big battle.
They both felt passionately that they had no other choice; even though their search isolates them from the larger group and puts them at extreme risk (even though Saul was forcibly separated; he chose to go find Lizzy).
Both journeys have an element of revenge and redemption for them.
Both losses are the result of (besides Ink of course) Scratch and the Mallers.
One has ended and the other will end with finding and battling Scratch.
Both found a safe haven and greater resources and/or information while on their journey.
Both reunited with the main group during a time of crisis with Ink.
Saul's story had "Lady" as a red herring obstruction; Riley had possible lesbianism
Both got drunk at key points in the story and were almost nommed--Saul in the car and Riley in the corn field.


Maybe Riley's arc is partly about learning to get truly close to another human being. She is almost always competent but emotionally distant from those around her. She kept her despair to herself and drank herself into oblivion. We had no idea that she felt that passionately about Angel. Maybe chasing revenge for Angel is easier for her than having a relationship with him.
what do you think?

[Gooer]

Has Riley actually been CONFIRMED as a lesbian, or just speculated by everyone that she is? I mean, I know she's pretty macho, but still....

[Eviebae]

Has Riley actually been CONFIRMED as a lesbian, or just speculated by everyone that she is? I mean, I know she's pretty macho, but still....

I have no unearthly idea. It was more a subject of conjecture because of her laugh at Michael thinking she was coming onto him and saying something like "he just doesn't get it." after talking to (Angel?) a guy.

[Osiris]

Maybe Riley's arc is partly about learning to get truly close to another human being. She is almost always competent but emotionally distant from those around her. She kept her despair to herself and drank herself into oblivion. We had no idea that she felt that passionately about Angel. Maybe chasing revenge for Angel is easier for her than having a relationship with him.
what do you think?

This is the most interesting part of that character. It seems that her entire journey has been one of accepting that she needs others to survive. For me it is more a mirror of Saul's journey of coming to a place where he knows he doesn't need anyone to survive, but does need others to truly live. The rest is action.

[Litmaster]

*WARNING: SOME SPOILERS BELOW*



Maybe Riley's arc is partly about learning to get truly close to another human being. She is almost always competent but emotionally distant from those around her. She kept her despair to herself and drank herself into oblivion. We had no idea that she felt that passionately about Angel. Maybe chasing revenge for Angel is easier for her than having a relationship with him. What do you think?

I love your take here, Evie. Riley, to me, is one of the more mysterious main characters in the story--she has been around since the beginning, but we still don't know all that much about her motivations. Her secret love for Angel was never expressed, and perhaps she feels an extra loss at never being able to express that now that he is gone. It's interesting to me that much of her motives have only been implied, which is much different than, say, a character like Datu, who wears his heart on his sleeve and we, the audience, has seen many of the things that have motivated him in one way or another.

But not so with Riley. She doesn't even seem that close to the other female characters in the story (remember, she alone stayed to be a soldier at Irwin while the rest left, etc.). She is perhaps closest to Lizzy, but even that is not the same since Lizzy and Saul have become inseparable. The primary reason she is partnered with Burt is because of their mutual hatred of Scratch...

It is somewhat ironic to me that she has processed much of her inner grief by turning to alcohol instead of really sharing with others... this is the same woman who seemed so perceptive in the scene right after they shoot Angel's girlfriend Cindy, where she observes that Michael is really hurting inside without showing it much externally. Riley definitely defies the stereotype that woman are all social creatures who need to share all their feelings with trusted female friends... :nik:

[Litmaster]

Riley, to me, is one of the more mysterious main characters in the story--she has been around since the beginning, but we still don't know all that much about her motivations. Her secret love for Angel was never expressed, and perhaps she feels an extra loss at never being able to express that now that he is gone.

I was thinking about this, and I think one scene in particular would help bring some of her inner motivations 'on stage' a bit:

I think the story could use a scene where we cut to Burt & Riley at their place at the same time as Lizzy and the gang are moving over to Cain hospital. It is raining outside. Burt and Riley have just had a rough night, having tracked Scratch and Tar with their most solid clue yet... only to find that they missed her by perhaps less than an hour. The 2 characters talk about how they JUST missed her, only finding the remains of a dying fire and perhaps one piece of solid evidence that yes, it was indeed Scratch they just missed. Now they are back to square one, having no further clues to go on.

Riley is at the table, perhaps with a bottle. She is distraught... getting so tired of this. Burt is also angry and sulky at having just missed their quarry. They start second guessing their moves, thinking that if they just didn't make that one stop earlier in the evening, then they would have had her dead to rights. Long periods of silence, with quiet rain in the background, and sounds of basic radio chatter from the Colony folk... Then Riley opens up, starts reminiscing about why she is still doing this, why she is hunting that bitch... she starts talking about Angel, and alludes to her grief about not being able to express her love for him. It is not all laid out plainly, but we are given just enough to know how she feels... Burt comes back with a quiet, "You really loved him..." or something....

...Then the quiet scene is suddenly interrupted at the end (as Kc is wont to do) with a Tanya's frantic voice on the radio, partially broken up: the one thing that comes across is "Liz is going into labor" (dramatic music) ....and..."Cain hospital".
END SCENE

So there you go. Two birds, one scene: Riley's inner motives get expressed, character developed a bit more, and justification for Burt/Riley to come save the day at Cain... :nik:

[Raven]

Riley is at the table, perhaps with a bottle. She is distraught... getting so tired of this. Burt is also angry and sulky at having just missed their quarry. They start second guessing their moves, thinking that if they just didn't make that one stop earlier in the evening, then they would have had her dead to rights. Long periods of silence, with quiet rain in the background, and sounds of basic radio chatter from the Colony folk... Then Riley opens up, starts reminiscing about why she is still doing this, why she is hunting that bitch... she starts talking about Angel, and alludes to her grief about not being able to express her love for him. It is not all laid out plainly, but we are given just enough to know how she feels... Burt comes back with a quiet, "You really loved him..." or something....

...Then the quiet scene is suddenly interrupted at the end (as Kc is wont to do) with a Tanya's frantic voice on the radio, partially broken up: the one thing that comes across is "Liz is going into labor" (dramatic music) ....and..."Cain hospital".[/COLOR]
END SCENE
:

This. So much this.

I want there to be something even close to this. Riley has been very closed off from everyone since Angel so we don't know where she is at mentally other than living with Burt (which could drive anyone nuts) for the single purpose of wanting to track down Scratch. But she knows what she is giving up to get her vengeance I.E maybe never seeing Datu alive again, Lizzie and Henry. I feel like she has a much larger part left to play in the story and we are building up to it.

[Eviebae]

Truth is, Riley's a really popular actress/character and she's been gone a long time. I don't know if it was planned or work conflicts for the actress but we just haven't seen her enough. Other characters have had much more time to be fleshed out. I missed the voice and the storyline.

[Gnex]

I would personally like to say that I find it offensive and unjust that there is such a glaring lack of pie in this story!!!! :britt:

[GeneraLee]

I was thinking about this, and I think one scene in particular would help bring some of her inner motivations 'on stage' a bit:

I think the story could use a scene where we cut to Burt & Riley at their place at the same time as Lizzy and the gang are moving over to Cain hospital. It is raining outside. Burt and Riley have just had a rough night, having tracked Scratch and Tar with their most solid clue yet... only to find that they missed her by perhaps less than an hour. The 2 characters talk about how they JUST missed her, only finding the remains of a dying fire and perhaps one piece of solid evidence that yes, it was indeed Scratch they just missed. Now they are back to square one, having no further clues to go on.

Riley is at the table, perhaps with a bottle. She is distraught... getting so tired of this. Burt is also angry and sulky at having just missed their quarry. They start second guessing their moves, thinking that if they just didn't make that one stop earlier in the evening, then they would have had her dead to rights. Long periods of silence, with quiet rain in the background, and sounds of basic radio chatter from the Colony folk... Then Riley opens up, starts reminiscing about why she is still doing this, why she is hunting that bitch... she starts talking about Angel, and alludes to her grief about not being able to express her love for him. It is not all laid out plainly, but we are given just enough to know how she feels... Burt comes back with a quiet, "You really loved him..." or something....

...Then the quiet scene is suddenly interrupted at the end (as Kc is wont to do) with a Tanya's frantic voice on the radio, partially broken up: the one thing that comes across is "Liz is going into labor" (dramatic music) ....and..."Cain hospital".
END SCENE

So there you go. Two birds, one scene: Riley's inner motives get expressed, character developed a bit more, and justification for Burt/Riley to come save the day at Cain... :nik:

I think you're close with this. Might be slightly different, but close.

[2witt]

I just finished episode 34 and it occurred to me that all the female characters have become royal b*****s of some sort or another, while the male characters are oh-so-caring and patient. Did the writer's girlfriend just dump him or something?

[Osiris]

I just finished episode 34 and it occurred to me that all the female characters have become royal b*****s of some sort or another, while the male characters are oh-so-caring and patient. Did the writer's girlfriend just dump him or something?

Oh, hi... what a thoughtful first post. I'm not sure how to best answer your question... maybe you could re-phrase it...

[Gooer]

I just finished episode 34 and it occurred to me that all the female characters have become royal b*****s of some sort or another, while the male characters are oh-so-caring and patient. Did the writer's girlfriend just dump him or something?

Huh.

[Merlin1274]

No that's not the case.. Maybe the women are little stressed with the men they care about and lot of crap on their plates as well.. No every can remain calm and collective during the Zombie apocalypse...

[LiamKerrington]

I just finished episode 34 and it occurred to me that all the female characters have become royal b*****s of some sort or another, while the male characters are oh-so-caring and patient. Did the writer's girlfriend just dump him or something?

I am pretty sure you have missed like nearly 1/3 of the show with a lot of things going on until #48 ... Maybe you would (and I ask you that you _should_) reconsider your statement then ...
Besides: the biggest royal bitch up until #34 has been Saul ... :nik:

[Osiris]

True. Saul a lil' bitch.

[GamerGirl]

Did the writer get dumped.... Ummmm... No. Not even close.

If I remember this correctly (please call me on this if I am wrong), Kc & Blair got married over the break between seasons 3 & 4. So they would have been talking about or plaining the wedding around chapter 34.

Also I would not call any of the guys "oh-so caring & patient". Passive aggressive sounds about right tough. 😏

[Osiris]

Did the writer get dumped.... Ummmm... No. Not even close.

If I remember this correctly (please call me on this if I am wrong), Kc & Blair got married over the break between seasons 3 & 4. So they would have been talking about or plaining the wedding around chapter 34.

Also I would not call any of the guys "oh-so caring & patient". Passive aggressive sounds about right tough. 

I have vague recollections about talk of a wedding, but I think it was a smoke screen. KC married his cat. Pretty sure no woman would put up with his bullshit whining about being sick.

[cypress]

Hi everyone! I'm brand new to We're Alive. I'm only on Chapter 10 and enjoying every minute so far! But on the topic of the female characters, I did find it interesting that the series perpetuated subtle, institutional sexism in the way the characters interact with each other. I partly wonder whether it was intentional, but it doesn't really matter if it wasn't. I think if you pay attention to how the male characters interact with each other and with their female counterparts, the show actually highlights some of the major issues women face in a male-dominated society - specifically, the assumption that women are weak/unintelligent/illogical/lesser than.

It was very noticeable to me that our main heroes carry around certain assumptions. They assume men (in general) are capable until the men prove otherwise (like putting faith in Datu to get certain things done and done right). They also assume women (in general) are incapable until the women prove themselves capable. The most glaring instance of this so far (remember - I'm only at Chapter 10!) is when Lizzie goes with Saul and Burt on their supply mission. Burt assumes Lizzie can't shoot until she decapitates a few zombies with three quick pops of her gun. Saul immediately dismisses Lizzie's hypothesis about the zombie driving a car until she proves it point by point. Then, it seemed like the very next opportunity the guys had to affirm their own beliefs that Lizzie is somehow inferior to them, they pounce on it. ("Educated idiot if you ask me...")

There's also the immediate dismissal of Riley's abilities with a bow and arrow as useless. The men (Angel in particular) demeaned the idea of using arrows until Riley proved that a bow could be a useful weapon on multiple occasions. Although this might be attributed on the surface to a preference for firearms and perhaps ignorance as to the usefulness of bows, I think Angel, Michael and the others were very quick to dismiss the skill as useless without even inquiring as to why Riley believed it useful. They didn't give her the same benefit of the doubt that Michael afforded 16 year old Tommy and his camera.

Anyway, those are just my two cents on the topic. Looking forward to what happens next!

[General Malarky]

Hi everyone! I'm brand new to We're Alive. I'm only on Chapter 10 and enjoying every minute so far! But on the topic of the female characters, I did find it interesting that the series perpetuated subtle, institutional sexism in the way the characters interact with each other. I partly wonder whether it was intentional, but it doesn't really matter if it wasn't. I think if you pay attention to how the male characters interact with each other and with their female counterparts, the show actually highlights some of the major issues women face in a male-dominated society - specifically, the assumption that women are weak/unintelligent/illogical/lesser than.

It was very noticeable to me that our main heroes carry around certain assumptions. They assume men (in general) are capable until the men prove otherwise (like putting faith in Datu to get certain things done and done right). They also assume women (in general) are incapable until the women prove themselves capable. The most glaring instance of this so far (remember - I'm only at Chapter 10!) is when Lizzie goes with Saul and Burt on their supply mission. Burt assumes Lizzie can't shoot until she decapitates a few zombies with three quick pops of her gun. Saul immediately dismisses Lizzie's hypothesis about the zombie driving a car until she proves it point by point. Then, it seemed like the very next opportunity the guys had to affirm their own beliefs that Lizzie is somehow inferior to them, they pounce on it. ("Educated idiot if you ask me...")

There's also the immediate dismissal of Riley's abilities with a bow and arrow as useless. The men (Angel in particular) demeaned the idea of using arrows until Riley proved that a bow could be a useful weapon on multiple occasions. Although this might be attributed on the surface to a preference for firearms and perhaps ignorance as to the usefulness of bows, I think Angel, Michael and the others were very quick to dismiss the skill as useless without even inquiring as to why Riley believed it useful. They didn't give her the same benefit of the doubt that Michael afforded 16 year old Tommy and his camera.

Anyway, those are just my two cents on the topic. Looking forward to what happens next!

Educated idiot: Doesn't know the difference between diesel and unleaded... Doesn't know how to use a clutch... Can't function in the real world.
No one believed Liz on the ambush idea because: a zombie driving a car? Really? That is something no one could believe, or would even want to.
Plus, it's only natural to think that Burt and Saul are superior to Liz, because SPOILER ALERT: Liz dies first.

Riley's bow was quickly dismissed because it is a sloppy weapon. A gun is a more advanced version of the bow. It is more accurate, and shoots many more rounds per second. Not many people know how to wield a bow as well as Riley. A gun is just the more appropriate option.

Tommy received a much more positive response to his cameras simply because he explained it's uses and further possibilities immediately and a very easily portable security camera in such a situation is instantly recognizable as a highly valued piece of equipment.

No sexism here!

Oh, and please donate to the TFWA Lockdown Kickstarter.

[GamerGirl]

Everyone eventually gets called on something no matter what their gender. Everyone eventually moved past all of their initial impressions.

I think part of the reason Tommy gets the praise he does is because Kelly is so down on him. Nobody really likes Kelly at this point - so Michael is enjoying the fact he can prove her wrong (& I think he says that people treating kids as if their stupid just because their young drives him nuts).

Kc respects his female characters. Just wait until the end of season 4 & see what he does to the one of the guys to bring the ladies center stage. (It's effective, but kinda mean)

[General Malarky]

Everyone eventually gets called on something no matter what their gender. Everyone eventually moved past all of their initial impressions.

I think part of the reason Tommy gets the praise he does is because Kelly is so down on him. Nobody really likes Kelly at this point - so Michael is enjoying the fact he can prove her wrong (& I think he says that people treating kids as if their stupid just because their young drives him nuts).

Kc respects his female characters. Just wait until the end of season 4 & see what he does to the one of the guys to bring the ladies center stage. (It's effective, but kinda mean)

Wait wait... Are you talking about the trainees/Hope thing in the last episode?

That was funny

Or was it the... Uhhhh... Other thing... Whatever that was... I'm a little confused...

[kawkaw]

Hi everyone! I'm brand new to We're Alive. I'm only on Chapter 10 and enjoying every minute so far! But on the topic of the female characters, I did find it interesting that the series perpetuated subtle, institutional sexism in the way the characters interact with each other. I partly wonder whether it was intentional, but it doesn't really matter if it wasn't. I think if you pay attention to how the male characters interact with each other and with their female counterparts, the show actually highlights some of the major issues women face in a male-dominated society - specifically, the assumption that women are weak/unintelligent/illogical/lesser than.

It was very noticeable to me that our main heroes carry around certain assumptions. They assume men (in general) are capable until the men prove otherwise (like putting faith in Datu to get certain things done and done right). They also assume women (in general) are incapable until the women prove themselves capable. The most glaring instance of this so far (remember - I'm only at Chapter 10!) is when Lizzie goes with Saul and Burt on their supply mission. Burt assumes Lizzie can't shoot until she decapitates a few zombies with three quick pops of her gun. Saul immediately dismisses Lizzie's hypothesis about the zombie driving a car until she proves it point by point. Then, it seemed like the very next opportunity the guys had to affirm their own beliefs that Lizzie is somehow inferior to them, they pounce on it. ("Educated idiot if you ask me...")

There's also the immediate dismissal of Riley's abilities with a bow and arrow as useless. The men (Angel in particular) demeaned the idea of using arrows until Riley proved that a bow could be a useful weapon on multiple occasions. Although this might be attributed on the surface to a preference for firearms and perhaps ignorance as to the usefulness of bows, I think Angel, Michael and the others were very quick to dismiss the skill as useless without even inquiring as to why Riley believed it useful. They didn't give her the same benefit of the doubt that Michael afforded 16 year old Tommy and his camera.

Anyway, those are just my two cents on the topic. Looking forward to what happens next!

This is a very good analysis. I feel like I could endlessly rant about how awful the women are treated in this show. I'm on episode 25, but I don't think I'll listen to it anymore. At this point the blatant sexism destroys any initial interest I had for a zombie podcast.

[General Malarky]

This is a very good analysis. I feel like I could endlessly rant about how awful the women are treated in this show. I'm on episode 25, but I don't think I'll listen to it anymore. At this point the blatant sexism destroys any initial interest I had for a zombie podcast.

Yup... Sure... It's your right to miss out on the BEST STORY EVER. Go ahead... Leave... Gets my vote for best first post...

[Litmaster]

IMO, the criticism of sexism in We're Alive is completely ridiculous and unfounded:

1. The main badass villain in the story is a WOMAN (who dominates all the male criminals in her group BTW)
2. A strong, independent, skilled archer is a WOMAN
3. The best, most capable leader and planner in the story is a WOMAN
4. One of the only two qualified pilots in the story is a WOMAN
5. The capable doctor and scientist who comes the closest to discovering the reason for the outbreak is a WOMAN

Sorry, but I think extreme feminist activism has distorted the perception of some in this thread.
If you're looking to bash someone for creating a sexist story, you'd best look elsewhere. Kc has nothing to apologize for.

[Gooer]

IMO, the criticism of sexism in We're Alive is completely ridiculous and unfounded:

1. The main badass villain in the story is a WOMAN (who dominates all the male criminals in her group BTW)
2. A strong, independent, skilled archer is a WOMAN
3. The best, most capable leader and planner in the story is a WOMAN
4. One of the only two qualified pilots in the story is a WOMAN
5. The capable doctor and scientist who comes the closest to discovering the reason for the outbreak is a WOMAN

Sorry, but I think extreme feminist activism has distorted the perception of some in this thread.
If you're looking to bash someone for creating a sexist story, you'd best look elsewhere. Kc has nothing to apologize for.

Don't really get how people think the show is sexist, when most of the strongest/best characters are female....

[Merlin1274]

How is this different then any movie or TV show ever made? You can find and nitpick little things to death and read into things that are not there.. Why can't people just enjoy a story for what it is, Entertainment not a Politically Correct manifesto about racism, feminism and perfect harmony. Get a life. Sounds to me like they are haters from some other Pod Cast.

[Kc]

Hi everyone! I'm brand new to We're Alive. I'm only on Chapter 10 and enjoying every minute so far! But on the topic of the female characters, I did find it interesting that the series perpetuated subtle, institutional sexism in the way the characters interact with each other. I partly wonder whether it was intentional, but it doesn't really matter if it wasn't. I think if you pay attention to how the male characters interact with each other and with their female counterparts, the show actually highlights some of the major issues women face in a male-dominated society - specifically, the assumption that women are weak/unintelligent/illogical/lesser than.

It was very noticeable to me that our main heroes carry around certain assumptions. They assume men (in general) are capable until the men prove otherwise (like putting faith in Datu to get certain things done and done right). They also assume women (in general) are incapable until the women prove themselves capable. The most glaring instance of this so far (remember - I'm only at Chapter 10!) is when Lizzie goes with Saul and Burt on their supply mission. Burt assumes Lizzie can't shoot until she decapitates a few zombies with three quick pops of her gun. Saul immediately dismisses Lizzie's hypothesis about the zombie driving a car until she proves it point by point. Then, it seemed like the very next opportunity the guys had to affirm their own beliefs that Lizzie is somehow inferior to them, they pounce on it. ("Educated idiot if you ask me...")

There's also the immediate dismissal of Riley's abilities with a bow and arrow as useless. The men (Angel in particular) demeaned the idea of using arrows until Riley proved that a bow could be a useful weapon on multiple occasions. Although this might be attributed on the surface to a preference for firearms and perhaps ignorance as to the usefulness of bows, I think Angel, Michael and the others were very quick to dismiss the skill as useless without even inquiring as to why Riley believed it useful. They didn't give her the same benefit of the doubt that Michael afforded 16 year old Tommy and his camera.

Anyway, those are just my two cents on the topic. Looking forward to what happens next!


This is a very good analysis. I feel like I could endlessly rant about how awful the women are treated in this show. I'm on episode 25, but I don't think I'll listen to it anymore. At this point the blatant sexism destroys any initial interest I had for a zombie podcast.

I'm ok with discussing this sort of thing and enjoy discussing it, as it's something that's been pulled very much to the forefront of modern social commentary regarding how female characters are written. First and foremost, I feel most of the characters in the WA story that are female are in many ways written strong, but any character that doesn't show or have weak moments become stagnant characters. Be it male or female characters, everyone needs flaws.

How Burt reacts to Lizzy as a character is more in tuned with her background rather than her sexuality. Lizzy came into the story as a spoiled college student with no real world experience and part of her arc was to prove to herself and others that she had more of a purpose. In a survivalist situation, people are going to judge who you are and what you can do based on where you came from and what you did. Lizzy's "survival resume" was thin, which was intentional. There were many times in the story where "Usefullness" is directly commented on, and even Angel commented negatively towards those who might not contribute to the survival of the whole. In the end, she proved them wrong.

Datu's assumed by others more capable because the tasks given to him were directly related to what he did previously. He was a maintenance man for an entire apartment complex for many years. The others who were soldiers were also trusted moreso right away given that they had previous experience as combat-ready people. These are examples where previous occupations influence initial perspectives on each other.

As for the bow and arrow, any soldier would trust the combat effectiveness of a rifle over a bow. If Angel trusted the bow right away, that would stick out to me as odd.

If anyone had more examples of what they think is sexist in the story, I'd be more than happy to talk about them.

[Litmaster]

Kc, you're being way too fair, as usual.

[GamerGirl]

Wait wait... Are you talking about the trainees/Hope thing in the last episode?

That was funny

Or was it the... Uhhhh... Other thing... Whatever that was... I'm a little confused...

How to do this w/out spoilers.....

Let's just say Puck has the worst luck. (Check the Last few WA Fancasts for more details).


But the Hope thing was cool too.

[GamerGirl]

I have no problem with woman characters who are perceived as weak at the start or don't instantly get respect (with in reason) as long as there is a natural progression for them to break those molds.

Makes the moment that they start kicking ass much more enjoyable.

But seriously, the guys all have their "fatal flaws" & "week moments" as well (Michael & Randy anyone - not being able to kill is such a "girl" thing). All of the characters have substantive contributions to the story. If you pull one out everything falls apart & they would probably all would have died.

The true litmus test for me is gender swapping the roles & - with the exception of Lizzy's pregnancy (although the female Saul pregnant would be like the best thing ever) & Bart's spcific role in the military (gender swap almost requires making him Major Margaret Hollaihan after she dumps Frank from MASH) - they all work in the opposite gender.

If a character's gender is only a peice of who they are & not the end-all-be-all of their existence than we have true gender equality. This story pretty much does that.

But the learning curve for the guys made it one hell of a ride.