Angel's Ring

[Grognaurd]

In Season 3 we learn about Angel's ring. Question, does he go home and get it at the end of the world or does he have it with him all along? If it really is a link to organized crime, why keep it in normal day to day activities? Wouldn't having it risk exposure to a life one is seeking to escape? If it is crime, why bother after the world collapses?

But, if it is an apocalyptic cult and one has some knowledge of Z-day in advance, it is a pretty important thing to have.

[nikvoodoo]

I don't recall us ever hearing Angel goes back to his own place so I'd assume it's something he has on him. Despite what it represents, it's still a gift from his father. He could have it like a necklace or maybe he actually wears it but no one except family members understand it's meaning.

I don't think the family serves more purpose than to intertwine Scratch to Angel's stories.....and of course to allow for some momentary "Scratch will die" drama only to have her do what she did to Durai.

[Osiris]

Yeah that does seem strange that he has it on him. Not being in the military, I'll have to defer to an expert on this, but when you're in the thick of your indentured servitude are you allowed to wear hand jewelry?

[nikvoodoo]

Yeah that does seem strange that he has it on him. Not being in the military, I'll have to defer to an expert on this, but when you're in the thick of your indentured servitude are you allowed to wear hand jewelry?


Good point, but I would say that as a reservist he would have been coming from home. Remember that he and Michael had that conversation about how they got there. He could have had it on his person and planned to put it in his locker once they suited up and went out.

[Cabbage Patch]

In the Army you are allowed to wear rings while in uniform. Usually just one, and not too big or flashy. Then again, you should see the big garish things that officers that graduated from West Point wear, which is the reason they're nicknamed "ring knockers".

We never fully fleshed out Angel's relationship with Cindy. Maybe he was living with her, and the ring was in her apartment.

[Osiris]

Good point, but I would say that as a reservist he would have been coming from home. Remember that he and Michael had that conversation about how they got there. He could have had it on his person and planned to put it in his locker once they suited up and went out.

I'd agree with that. It's been a looooong time since I've listened to the first three eps. I might actually do that tonight. Hmm.

[Osiris]

In the military you are allowed to wear rings while in uniform. Usually just one, and not too big or flashy. But you should see the big garish things that officer that graduated from West Point wear, which is the reason they're nicknamed "ring knockers".

We never fully fleshed out Angel's relationship with Cindy. Maybe he was living with her, and the ring was in her apartment.

I think I'm the only one that still holds out hope that Angel will come back for some back story. I miss that character more with each episode we put behind us.

[nikvoodoo]

I'd agree with that. It's been a looooong time since I've listened to the first three eps. I might actually do that tonight. Hmm.

I just roped a coworker into listening and since she doesn't have room on her phone she uses mine to listen on our commute to and from NYC. I can hear the story through her headphones so I'm getting a mini Season 1 crash course.

[Arch_Will]

i burned through all 3 current seasons in 3 weeks to get up to speed for this. other than that, i think the angel story is finished until perhaps mentioned again during a possible downfall of Scratch.

[Nathan.Luiz]

I'd suggest he always had it with him to remind him of his father. Despite was his father was caught up in, and how Angel himself had turned his back on that, it's still something to remind him of the good times he had with his father, perhaps.

[Grognaurd]

This shows up again in 37.3. Burt seems clueless, but Riley says it was his. It was an affirmative, not a deduction and I cannot help but think she sounds a lot like Scratch with her "I can't!" I have said it before with little fanfare even before we learned of Angel's ring, a reocurring theme in this story is Fratricide and I think it continues in Season 4. Sure Riley cares for Angel, but this wanting to track Scratch down is pathological. Damn, Southern California is a big place and it is not like she can hire the Pinkertons in the Old West to track the bandits down.

[pmchawk]

One reason Angel might still have had it was it could have been at Cindy's apartment. Perhaps Cindy was also someone who had left the family with angel and they supported each other through this transition.

[SmokeyZombified]

It seemed like Riley already knew it was Angel's ring, now Im not sure if that's because it was on his body? I doubt she would dig up his grave. So obviously she had seen it before and knew it was Angel's, possibly during the rescue Datu the Magnificent arc when they stripped down to change their clothes after the dead people bath they took? Maybe, just maybe, Riley knows more than we think about that ring.

I think (hope because I miss Angel's character) that we may end up hearing a Riley flashback with guest star Shane Saulk?

[Grognaurd]

I think she knows more, too.

Bricks placed the ring on the cross out of respect and Riley thinks it was Scratch to taunt her. No good deed...

I would love Bricks to have survived in Tanya's care, but I do not think he did. But, I always say that if there ain't no body than there ain't nobody dead. He may have been with the mallers, but he is the gentle giant character I always like.

[SmokeyZombified]

I think she knows more, too.

Bricks placed the ring on the cross out of respect and Riley thinks it was Scratch to taunt her. No good deed...

I would love Bricks to have survived in Tanya's care, but I do not think he did. But, I always say that if there ain't no body than there ain't nobody dead. He may have been with the mallers, but he is the gentle giant character I always like.

I agree, Bricks was one guy who needed to live. Maybe there is some off chance he lived but I doubt it, KC doesn't like bringing people back to life unless as a zombie and it's pretty much confirmed that Bricks is dead. The only plus was that he got his wish and didnt get killed by a Zed.

I need to re-listen, I think I missed the part where the ring was on the grave. Makes sense why Riley is so pissed!

[runs4theheckofit]

This shows up again in 37.3. Burt seems clueless, but Riley says it was his. It was an affirmative, not a deduction and I cannot help but think she sounds a lot like Scratch with her "I can't!" I have said it before with little fanfare even before we learned of Angel's ring, a reocurring theme in this story is Fratricide and I think it continues in Season 4. Sure Riley cares for Angel, but this wanting to track Scratch down is pathological. Damn, Southern California is a big place and it is not like she can hire the Pinkertons in the Old West to track the bandits down.

Maybe Riley will get a pet zombie and have it sniff out Scratch's scent on an item that was hers... Farfetched and weird as hell, but it goes along with the pathological route.

[FunkyDung]

I wasn't caught up with WA and on the forums yet when the artwork for Angel's ring was revealed. Was there much talk about what it means? I notice three things about it. I thoughts about two of them.

1. There are wings on it. I have no insight into why.
2. The phrase "de vita in mortem" or "de vita ad mortem" in inscribed on it. It means "from life to death". That likely refers to an inseparable bond, such as a vow. However, it's also mentioned in St. Thomas Aquinas' "Summa Theologica". Ordinarily, I might dismiss this as pure coincidence, but KC used biblical names (Michael Cross, Angel, Saul, Lizza/Elizabeth, Pegs/Margaret), so it's not completely impossible. The relevant section of the Summa relates to charitable acts being "deadened" by mortal sin. A reference to Scratch putting Angel out of his misery - but only because he royally pissed her off? BTW, has it occurred to anyone that Scratch's name might derive from "Old Scratch", a nickname for Satan in folk tales?
3. The pattern is Borromean rings. From Wikipedia: "In mathematics, the Borromean rings consist of three topological circles which are linked and form a Brunnian link (i.e., removing any ring results in two unlinked rings). In other words, no two of the three rings are linked with each other as a Hopf link, but nonetheless all three are linked." I suspect that Angel, Scratch, and Durai are representatives of three families linked like that.

I'm guessing some or most of that was discussed in previous threads. Did I offer anything new at all, though?

[Storm]

I wasn't caught up with WA and on the forums yet when the artwork for Angel's ring was revealed. Was there much talk about what it means? I notice three things about it. I thoughts about two of them.

1. There are wings on it. I have no insight into why.
2. The phrase "de vita in mortem" or "de vita ad mortem" in inscribed on it. It means "from life to death". That likely refers to an inseparable bond, such as a vow. However, it's also mentioned in St. Thomas Aquinas' "Summa Theologica". Ordinarily, I might dismiss this as pure coincidence, but KC used biblical names (Michael Cross, Angel, Saul, Lizza/Elizabeth, Pegs/Margaret), so it's not completely impossible. The relevant section of the Summa relates to charitable acts being "deadened" by mortal sin. A reference to Scratch putting Angel out of his misery - but only because he royally pissed her off? BTW, has it occurred to anyone that Scratch's name might derive from "Old Scratch", a nickname for Satan in folk tales?
3. The pattern is Borromean rings. From Wikipedia: "In mathematics, the Borromean rings consist of three topological circles which are linked and form a Brunnian link (i.e., removing any ring results in two unlinked rings). In other words, no two of the three rings are linked with each other as a Hopf link, but nonetheless all three are linked." I suspect that Angel, Scratch, and Durai are representatives of three families linked like that.

I'm guessing some or most of that was discussed in previous threads. Did I offer anything new at all, though?


Artwork? Wait, there's a Picture? I needa get that and someone WHO can descripe it to me! Lol!
...Guess the same goes for the cover art for the chapters. Hehe. This is one of the times being blind really sucks! (Joking joking, don't worry)
But yeah, thanks for this post, and especially the Latin phrase - been wanting a translation of the English one for ages.
If there'd been a "Loves" button I'd have clicked that. :D

[FunkyDung]

If there'd been a "Loves" button I'd have clicked that. :D

Glad I could be helpful, however accidentally. :)

[Storm]

BTW, has it occurred to anyone that Scratch's name might derive from "Old Scratch", a nickname for Satan in folk tales?
For some reason I forgot to answer this question. :D
But yeah, I've thought of that as well. That's also why I think Michael (St. Michael WHO leads God's army-thingie (I'm not relegious so I don't really know much about it)) kills Scratch. I mean, it seems like there's a lot of biblical references in the show - even two Towns that are anihilated.
...Guess this belongs somewhere else. Lol!

[Witch_Doctor]

A reference to Scratch putting Angel out of his misery - but only because he royally pissed her off? BTW, has it occurred to anyone that Scratch's name might derive from "Old Scratch", a nickname for Satan in folk tales? I'm guessing some or most of that was discussed in previous threads. Did I offer anything new at all, though?

Yes, you've added plenty. Also, check out this thread...





As for the snake symbols, there seems to be a straight forward connection to Voodoo. In fact, perhaps this thread should be merged with Chapter 27's Episode Artwork Has Voodoo Images thread. (http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?2959-Episode-Artwork-Has-Voodoo-images) Does anyone remember this little gem posted by Eviebae (http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/member.php?741-Eviebae)?

http://snakespirit.webs.com/damballa4.jpg

This is called a veve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veve). This is the same image on the hand closest to the fingers. The veves are symbolic representations of spirits of the Voodoo pantheon. The one on Pinstripe's hand is one of the veves for the deity Damballah-Wedo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damballah). This is the creator deity. But Damballah is a Divine Watch Maker type of creator. He creates the universe then takes no active part in running it. The intermediaries, or forces of nature, are the lower deities called Loa. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loa) They are analogous to saints or angels. Hold on to your hats... There are several FAMILIES of them!

First, know that Voodoo, like all religions, have many elements that vary from different practitioners. Here are a few interesting things about the Loa.

Each family of Loa have unique traits.
One family, The Petro Loa are generally the more fiery, occasionally aggressive and warlike Loa, and are associated with Haiti and the New World. They include Ezili Dantor, Marinette, and Met Kalfu.
Marinette is a cruel and vicious loa...While she is feared and tends to ride those she possesses violently, she can also be seen as one who frees her people from bondage....Her Catholic counterpart is the Anima Sola (Forsaken Soul) who can either free one from bondage or drag you back. Her colors are black and deep blood red. Sound like anyone we know?
Papa Legba is the intermediary between humans and the Loa. This is one of his veves. http://altreligion.about.com/od/symbols/ig/Vodoun-Veves/Legba-2.htm Notice that this is the same as the image on the lower part of Pinstripe's hand, nearest to the rist.
Papa Legba is well represented in pop culture. In 1982, Elton John released a UK B-side titled "Hey, Papa Legba," with lyrics by longtime collaborator Bernie Taupin. The musical groups Talking Heads, The Smalls, Angel, Sun City Girls, and Sun God have also made songs named after him.
In the 1986 film Crossroads, blues musicians Robert Johnson and Willie Brown sell their souls to a "Mr. Legba" at a Mississippi crossroads.
Later in the film Legba takes the name "Scratch".
IMDB link to Crossroads movie. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090888/
'Scratch' is a nickname for the Devil.
There are even Loa twins in Vodou, the Marassa Jumeaux are the divine twins.
Season 3, Chapter 27, "The 31st" If you divide 27 by 3 you get 9. 9 + 31 is 40 and... OK, I'm just fucking with y'all now. :-)


What can we make of all of this? Personally, I don't see these as being much in the way of any insight to the story's plot or zombie origins. I think these are symbolic elements of the story. Icons that ground some of the characters to mythological motifs. Perhaps, and I sort of hope, that the story is being told in a manner influenced by the works of Joseph Campbell. The characters represent archetypes of heroes and villains, angels and demons, sages and fools. The use of symbols does not mean that the story has a supernatural factor. It only serves as a way to connect the characters to the larger forces that control the lives of the subjects of the story. Perhaps, also, we will never know the great details of the scientific reasons behind the outbreak. This is also a hope of mine. Our heroes are learning quite a bit about the zombies and their nature but not enough, yet, for it to turn into a 'Star Trek-esque' work of science fiction. We've been spared the Mr. Spocks and Cmdr Datas with their super brains and scientific explanations. That works well in Star Trek because the science is so far into the future that anything they say can be made to make sense. Can't travel faster than light? Well, just go to warp speed. Pesky quantum physics getting in the way of a a working transporter? Just connect a Heisenberg Compensator.

'Star Wars' started out by telling a fantasy story without trying to explain away the mysteries with too much science. Do you know what happened? Midi-freaking-chlorians!

[Witch_Doctor]

Artwork? Wait, there's a Picture? I needa get that and someone WHO can descripe it to me! Lol!
...Guess the same goes for the cover art for the chapters. Hehe. This is one of the times being blind really sucks! (Joking joking, don't worry)
But yeah, thanks for this post, and especially the Latin phrase - been wanting a translation of the English one for ages.
If there'd been a "Loves" button I'd have clicked that. :D


Yep, here is the link. (http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?3446-Chapter-s-31-Artwork-The-Ring&highlight=borromean)


Have we been given another clue, a red herring or am I reading too much into an artist's creative license?

I give you the artwork for Chapter 31 2007

Now Behold! The Borromean Rings: 2008 Duhn duhn Dahhh!!!

The Borromeo Family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Borromeo) is very old, yet extant aristocratic family originating in Italy. The Borromean Rings (http://www.liv.ac.uk/~spmr02/rings/) appear on their Family Crest as well as having relevance in other areas such as mathematics, science, religion, the occult...

Probably, the main point is that the rings are arranged in such a manner that removing one will break the link of the remaining two.

I'm glad you guys are looking at this angle. Can't wait to see what y'all uncover.

[FunkyDung]

Yep, here is the link. (http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?3446-Chapter-s-31-Artwork-The-Ring&highlight=borromean)

Holy crap. That thread really started taking itself too seriously. I won't touch it with a 10 meter cattle prod. If I think of anything else worth mentioning, I'll probably just put it here. :)

[FunkyDung]

FWIW, I don't think KC will go Dan Brown on us. I see more typological characterization than allegorical. On the other hand, he has made heavy use of hidden clues and details linked in complicated and clever webs. Very few cigars have just been cigars, IMHO. I do think crows are just crows, though.

[scbubba]

FWIW, I don't think KC will go Dan Brown on us. I see more typological characterization than allegorical. On the other hand, he has made heavy use of hidden clues and details linked in complicated and clever webs. Very few cigars have just been cigars, IMHO. I do think crows are just crows, though.

You take that back, sir!!!!
Nyah, just kiddin'

[Grognaurd]

To paraphrase Tardust, all my crazy bird talk. With Burt named Raven and bird wings a major component of the ring. Quoth the raven; I mean KC, Nevermore!

They may be nothing, but I think they are working as intended, because KC's audience is thinking and having fun

[tlbro0]

Likely Angel didn't wear it all the time. However, it wouldn't be hard to carry it on him in any other manner.