i'm moving to florida

[reaper239]

not starting a healthcare debate- although i wouldn't mind debating the subject of this article- gov rick scott of florida has refused to impliment obamacare in his state.

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2012/07/01/gov-scott-florida-will-not-implement-insurance-exchanges-or-expand-medicare

i think obamacare is a terrible way to reform healthcare, and so am strongly considering looking for work down there. here's a question for you though: if a governor sees that the people of his state are against a law, and he feels it would be detrimental to his state to impliment it, is he (or she) within the bounds of his power to refuse to impliment it?

[yarri]

not starting a healthcare debate- although i wouldn't mind debating the subject of this article- gov rick scott of florida has refused to impliment obamacare in his state.

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2012/07/01/gov-scott-florida-will-not-implement-insurance-exchanges-or-expand-medicare

i think obamacare is a terrible way to reform healthcare, and so am strongly considering looking for work down there. here's a question for you though: if a governor sees that the people of his state are against a law, and he feels it would be detrimental to his state to impliment it, is he (or she) within the bounds of his power to refuse to impliment it?
I would ask you... How in the intern do we pay for the uninsured?

[reaper239]

wasn't going for the health care angle but, here goes:

cash (http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2010/03/primary-care-doctors-cash.html) only doctors
(http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2010/03/primary-care-doctors-cash.html)walmart
(http://www.walmart.com/cp/Pharmacy-Services-Saving-Program/1088607?catNavId=5431%3Fpovid%3Dcat1070145-env172199-module051812-lLinkGNAV_PHARMACY_RX_SERVICES_SAVINGS_PROGRAMS&fromPageCatId=5431)insurance (http://mychristiancare.org/medi-share/) alternative

(http://mychristiancare.org/medi-share/)there are a lot of alternative options surfacing in the face of the health care "crisis." the health care system has been reforming itself over the last few years, except that obamacare is now prepareing to shut down innovation in the health care industry. plus the truly poor have medicaid/medicare so they really aren't without insurance. any time we've faced some kind of serious problem in this country, the best solutions have always come from the bottom up, and not from the top down, but here we're introducing this massive piece of legislation aimed to fix the problem of people not haveing insurance, when not everyone needs insurance.these articles at the national center for policy analysis (http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba460/)and the media research center (http://www.mrc.org/node/25438)websites show that the number thrown around for the uninsured is grossly inflated. the problem this legislation attacks is those without insurance, not those who don't have access to health care, which is actually a much smaller number, and a problem that the industry itself has been seeking to rectify. think about it, doctors want to make money, but there are several million people who don't have insurance and don't qualify for aid for one reason or another. that is a large untapped market, if you know how. and people are figuring out how, through all manner of insurance alternatives, cheap care, and dealing with patients directly. what we need is to let the market work out a solution, which it has been doing, and not fix a system with broken legislation.

[yarri]

I'll answer more of this later but I will start out with you are mistaken if you think everyone without insurance gets covered by Medicare/ Medicaid. They have very specific sets of guidelines that very few fall into to receive coverage, the people that pay for the uninsured are you and me and anyone with insurance in the form of higher premiums and dedicables . Right now we are also paying for the illegals as well . What parts of the Obama care plan do you not like other then being told to carry insurance ? Is it the insurance has to allow preexisting condictions like type 1 Juvenal diabedies ? Or kids staying on the insurance of they're parents til age 26 so if god forbid they get sick they don't become one of the uninsured we pay for with 20k plus debt. My BFF who has no insurance just was denied Medicaid and is faced with a 25k bill for cholystitis surgery she's 25 unlike my hospital her parents insurance doesn't as of yet cover kids under 26

[reaper239]

i never said that everyone without insurance is covered by medicare/medicaid. and yes, i don't like that everyone is being told "you must carry insurance." what right do you have to tell me that i must enter into a contract with someone? that's like me telling you that you pay money for an air circulation plant comeing to a city near you. it doesn't make sense does it? telling you that because you are alive, you must enter into a contract with some organization for something that you may not need or want. i also don't like that my taxes will go up by almost $300 per month. you read that right, per month. i already pay enough to this state and the federal government in taxes, thank you very much. not to mention the fact that it really is unconstitutional (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/12/why-the-personal-mandate-to-buy-health-insurance-is-unprecedented-and-unconstitutional). and i feel for your friend, i really do, and you can find stories like that all over the place, kind of like how you can find stories of poor destitute people who would be so much better if we were socialists and the government were running everything (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085163/Children-dumped-streets-Greek-parents-afford-them.html). except they wouldn't, in countries that are, they aren't, and the fed has been running the post office for over 200 years, and amtrak for over 30, and hasn't managed to get those right yet. federal insurance mandates will only serve to make health care worse in this country. and i would argue that we actually have the best health care in the world (http://www.wnd.com/2007/10/44244/). now, that does not preclude us from making it better, but broad sweeping legislation is not, and has never been, the answer. instead we need to focus on developing competing methods of treatment that will make health care cheaper, but also better.

[nikvoodoo]

and i would argue that we actually have the best health care in the world (http://www.wnd.com/2007/10/44244/).

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

That would be my argument against your argument. The United States lacks in healthcare. As for the basic premise of this thread: He can dispute it all he wants, but if he doesn't want to enforce the law from the Federal government that's illegal. Federal government trumps state law. And at this point all appeals have been heard and it is the law of the land. George Wallace learned the hard way about this sort of thing.

[yarri]

From my point of view its a criminal act when we have young people I mean your age Reaper doing what normal young people do such as snow boarding, skiing, hiking, riding motorcycles . Most of these kids don't have insurance cause they're college kids. They have accidents without insurance and suddenly on top of their massive school loans they have 60 to 100 thousand in debt from injury... That is a criminal act that we don't help our own citizens. We have a twisted every man for himself attitude until its you in the hospital with mounting debt and no way to pay it off.

I told you about my brother right? You know he was the victim of a hit and run on his bike. 60 plus stitches in his face, missing teeth fractures of jaw, hand, fingers (which still have not been addressed) He had no insurance he's going to be paying off the care he got at the hospital for the rest of his life IF he doesn't file bankruptcy. IF he does that you me and anyone with insurance eats the cost. (god bless my mother she paid cash for fixing his teeth so what he has left could be saved and had some added to he could eat. He had no money for that imagine his quality of life if my mother had not been able to help him)

Cash only doctors? Are these doctors suddenly much much cheaper? Doctors pay overhead for their offices, staff, crap to run the office and insurance for themselves, the staff, and the ever popular malpractice insurance. Did I mention further training. Doctors and nurses go to school for life. Its part of the profession and it keeps us up and fresh for the changing technical crap that comes out on a monthly basis..(yep I've been in classes for the last 90 freaking days. I'm tired it shows :) )

How do you get 300$ per month in raised taxes? Show me cause that's news to me.


You want my suggestion to lower your taxes and insurance premium and deductibles? Have the healthcare community stop treating the uninsured. You have cash or insurance or you don't get treatment.


Also doctors and nurses aren't in it for the money.. I make a good living but I also put up with physical and mental abuses. I seldom sit at work I have constant stress and it takes its toll on my health and family. Doctors have it 100000 x worse. Do you know that many of us contribute our time and services free to the poor. more then half of the nurses I work with right now have done volunteerism work over seas paid for by their own pocketbook. Our doctors as well. The insurance company that runs my hospital has done free dental day. What more do you want?

Please define what truly poor means when qualifying for medicare?

[Luna Guardian]

Is this a good time to point at our Nordic healthcare system?

[yarri]

Like Nik said its now law. If you don't like it work to change it. The status quo isn't working anymore.

[reaper239]

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

That would be my argument against your argument. The United States lacks in healthcare. As for the basic premise of this thread: He can dispute it all he wants, but if he doesn't want to enforce the law from the Federal government that's illegal. Federal government trumps state law. And at this point all appeals have been heard and it is the law of the land. George Wallace learned the hard way about this sort of thing.

you realize that the WHO looks at how progressive your tax system is when making that determination? that's not a list of hte best health care systems, it's a list of the most socialist. look at the grading criteria: fairness in financialcontribution? what's that? the deeper you dig, the more you realize that they could be employing jason in the ER, as long as everyone was getting their heads chopped off equally, they would still have a better health care system than we do, accordig to the WHO. here, people who have the money to get experimental treatments aren't barred from doing so, simply because not everyone can afford it. and when the rich have bought the procedure enough it becomes cheaper andthen more readily available to everyone.

so you're saying we should've just knuckled under king george? i mean, clearly a rebellion must have been illegal under british rule, and yet, because georgey-boy was not treating us the way he should have, we rebelled. did you know that there are several states that have passed laws opting out of unconstitutional federal firearms egulations? in such states, firearms that are manufactured, bought, and kept within the state are exempt from federal firearms regulations. and there's nothing the fed can do, because they have no jurisdiction in intrastate commerce.

[yarri]

Infant mortality in the USA. 6.06 per 1000 live births
infant mortality in Canada 4.92
England 4.62 ( I had two kids there I had lovely care)
Germany 3.54
Spain 3.39

[reaper239]

From my point of view its a criminal act when we have young people I mean your age Reaper doing what normal young people do such as snow boarding, skiing, hiking, riding motorcycles . Most of these kids don't have insurance cause they're college kids. They have accidents without insurance and suddenly on top of their massive school loans they have 60 to 100 thousand in debt from injury... That is a criminal act that we don't help our own citizens. We have a twisted every man for himself attitude until its you in the hospital with mounting debt and no way to pay it off.

from my point of view, it's criminalto violate the US constitution, yet the fed is doing that freely and with abandon. do you realize that they have now developed a work around of the US constitution? "do what we say, or we'll tax you" lose weight or we'll tax you, spend money or we'll tax you, cash out your retirement and put it into treasurey bonds to help pay the deficit or we'll tax you, stop eating sugar or we'll tax you. my fellow subjects, welcome to the monarchy.


I told you about my brother right? You know he was the victim of a hit and run on his bike. 60 plus stitches in his face, missing teeth fractures of jaw, hand, fingers (which still have not been addressed) He had no insurance he's going to be paying off the care he got at the hospital for the rest of his life IF he doesn't file bankruptcy. IF he does that you me and anyone with insurance eats the cost. (god bless my mother she paid cash for fixing his teeth so what he has left could be saved and had some added to he could eat. He had no money for that imagine his quality of life if my mother had not been able to help him)

you know what i find incredible about htis story? in his time of need, family stepped up to help. the way it should be. and if there was any way that i could help, i hope you know that i really would. but do you know what helps make the costs so high? current insurance regualtions and tort laws. it's all overhead, because the doctors need insane ammounts of insurance to cover themselves in case of a lawsuit or some nonsense. instead of passing a law that says, "buy insurance or we'll tax you" (which they're telling people to buy insurance who either can't afford it or don't want it, and if they can't afford it, how can they pay the fine?) what we should be doing is reforming the laws already on the books. the answer to bad law is not more bad law.


Cash only doctors? Are these doctors suddenly much much cheaper? Doctors pay overhead for their offices, staff, crap to run the office and insurance for themselves, the staff, and the ever popular malpractice insurance. Did I mention further training. Doctors and nurses go to school for life. Its part of the profession and it keeps us up and fresh for the changing technical crap that comes out on a monthly basis..(yep I've been in classes for the last 90 freaking days. I'm tired it shows :) )

apparently yes. instead of deaing with insurance companies, they deal with the patients directly, which allows them to do things like: haggle on pricing, work out payment plans, and avoid the hassle and roving hordes of lawyers that come with insurance companies.


How do you get 300$ per month in raised taxes? Show me cause that's news to me.

state medicaid expansion. that's just an estimate mind you, but that is an idea of what i can expect my state taxes to go up by. of course it's variable, so you make more you pay more, make less pay less (get great shoes (i'm really sorry about that, i didn't have a choice in the matter, i couldn't in good concious let that go without making a shoe reference))



You want my suggestion to lower your taxes and insurance premium and deductibles? Have the healthcare community stop treating the uninsured. You have cash or insurance or you don't get treatment.

you'll find no argument from me here. it sounds kind of harsh, but the department of parks and rec (or whatever that federal agency is called) issued an advisory: do not feed the animals as they will become dependant on handouts. i think we could learn a little from that about being self reliant.



Also doctors and nurses aren't in it for the money.. I make a good living but I also put up with physical and mental abuses. I seldom sit at work I have constant stress and it takes its toll on my health and family. Doctors have it 100000 x worse. Do you know that many of us contribute our time and services free to the poor. more then half of the nurses I work with right now have done volunteerism work over seas paid for by their own pocketbook. Our doctors as well. The insurance company that runs my hospital has done free dental day. What more do you want?

my meaning earlier may have been misconstrued. i was not trying to say that doctors are in it for the money, only that they need to make a living, and like to make money as much as anyone does. obviously people don't become doctors just because they think being a doctor pays well, in order to be a doctor, you have to have a heart that wants to help. untill you bcome too cynical to care ;) but seriously, i was not trying to say that doctors are greedy or anything.

also, that's the kind of kind giving spirit that makes our health care so good (i still stand by what i said earlier).


Please define what truly poor means when qualifying for medicare?

i don't know any of the guidelines for medicare, so i really can't say. the poverty line in the US is at a level where people in other coundtries could live like kings, so poor is truly a subjective term.

[reaper239]

Infant mortality in the USA. 6.06 per 1000 live births
infant mortality in Canada 4.92
England 4.62 ( I had two kids there I had lovely care)
Germany 3.54
Spain 3.39

is that really a good gauge of US health care? i mean you can go from one county to the next and find significantly different infant mortality rates.

[reaper239]

Is this a good time to point at our Nordic healthcare system?

absolutely, i'm open to all oppinions and ideas. i don't know anything about the nordic health care system, so please, enlighten me. (btw, there is no sarcasm intended there)

[yarri]

Ok, my public apology its been pointed out that I'm being a HUGE righteous cranky bitch today so. I will leave this discussion and not post again on it.

I'm sorry Reaper and Nik I didn't stick to topic. Not your fault or the thread but mine

[random_highjinx]

Interesting video on Obamacare, <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Starts around 2:00 <br />
<br />
My personal opinion is FOR Obamacare. As I am a person who has had an auto-immune disorder since I was 3 it has been a constant struggle...

[charles]

I'm required by law to have auto insurance -- is that against the constitution as well?

This plan is essentially the same one that the Heritage foundation put forth -- is it not acceptable because it was put into play by a Democrat?

[charles]

Answering my own question (as usual):

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/apr/01/barack-obama/obama-says-heritage-foundation-source-health-excha/

[reaper239]

Ok, my public apology its been pointed out that I'm being a HUGE righteous cranky bitch today so. I will leave this discussion and not post again on it.

I'm sorry Reaper and Nik I didn't stick to topic. Not your fault or the thread but mine

not a problem, i actually have greatly enjoyed our little back and forth here. i love debate threads like this because it makes me think critically. i just hope i didn't offend you during our discourse.

[reaper239]

I'm required by law to have auto insurance -- is that against the constitution as well?

This plan is essentially the same one that the Heritage foundation put forth -- is it not acceptable because it was put into play by a Democrat?

no it's not the same. they are basically saying that because you are alive, you must enter into this contract with a third party. auto insurance is different because you don't have to drive. it's not a right, it's a privilege, however most choose to do so, and so they are saddled with auto insurance. i also don't care who presents socialized health care, i'm still against it, and i still say it's a horrible idea.

[Nate Eeez]

The George Wallace reference was about the Alabama Gov in the 60's who did not follow Constitutional Equal Rights law.

I am for the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. I hope it does allow all Americans to be covered. I think everybody should be covered.

If forcing people to be insured was inconstitutional, then we why do we have to have car insurance? Or other laws that promote safety? I wish there was a panacea for figuring out healthcare coverage. There are a lot of good ideas out there, but not one everybody can agree on.

I, also, work in healthcare, mental health specifically, and it is all muddled up with different insurances. It will be interesting what happens when we've got more insurance companies to deal with. And by interesting, I mean a headache. So much more paperwork. Argh!

[reaper239]

i feel for you, and i understand your poit of view, but i still say that obamacare is a bad idea, there is a better way, and that way is to unleash the power of the free market, and the individual. i...

[charles]

no it's not the same. they are basically saying that because you are alive, you must enter into this contract with a third party. auto insurance is different because you don't have to drive. it's not a right, it's a privilege, however most choose to do so, and so they are saddled with auto insurance. i also don't care who presents socialized health care, i'm still against it, and i still say it's a horrible idea.

Thanks -- I have no issue with any opinions on the subject. The more input from all points of view the better formed the ideas IMHO.

[reaper239]

The George Wallace reference was about the Alabama Gov in the 60's who did not follow Constitutional Equal Rights law.

I am for the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. I hope it does allow all Americans to be covered. I think everybody should be covered.

If forcing people to be insured was inconstitutional, then we why do we have to have car insurance? Or other laws that promote safety? I wish there was a panacea for figuring out healthcare coverage. There are a lot of good ideas out there, but not one everybody can agree on.

I, also, work in healthcare, mental health specifically, and it is all muddled up with different insurances. It will be interesting what happens when we've got more insurance companies to deal with. And by interesting, I mean a headache. So much more paperwork. Argh!

car insurance is a mandate you must follow in order to exercise the privilege of driving. there is no other law that requires you do something simply because you exist. the purpose of law, as designed by the founders, is simply to protect the rights of the individual.

[reaper239]

Thanks -- I have no issue with any opinions on the subject. The more input from all points of view the better formed the ideas IMHO.

you know, i feel much the same way. i'm perfectly willing to hear someone out as long as they return to me the same courtesey. granted, i stand at a certain view point, but i'm perfectly willing to hear the other side.

[charles]

you know, i feel much the same way. i'm perfectly willing to hear someone out as long as they return to me the same courtesey. granted, i stand at a certain view point, but i'm perfectly willing to hear the other side.

We should be in the Congress ;-) Without civil discourse there is no path through the problems at hand.

Edit: there is no wink emoticon image in the forum now.

[reaper239]

you know, i have to say, i really enjoyed this little debate here. thanks to everyone who provided input (even though we got on healthcare and not the state v federal rights topic) and thanks to everyone for keeping civil on this hot topic.

[Luna Guardian]

absolutely, i'm open to all oppinions and ideas. i don't know anything about the nordic health care system, so please, enlighten me. (btw, there is no sarcasm intended there)

Well, its really late and I'm really tired, but here's the basics:

Everyone pays for the public healthcare services in taxes. If you need to go see a doctor, everyone can afford it. Its not free, but very very cheap (in the low double digits last two times I went to see a doc). If your ailments aren't very serious, you might need to wait in line for a long time (like for routine checkup) but if you have something serious you get treated very quickly, usually the same day or the next, latest the following week (rare cases).

In addition there's the private sector, which is way way more expensive, but you can get immediate care and the best doctors etc. This is covered by your health insurance in most cases (can't think of any that aren't). They exist side by side, everyone is treated equally and with the best care available.

Now, I don't think this is a perfect system, but it is a good one.

[Loyal Retainer]

Reaper, the fact of the matter is that at some point everyone will need to use the services offered by the medical industry. Even of you're never sick a day in your life you still have to be vaccinated to attend school. I by no means think the new legislation is perfect but it was much better than what we had before. My best friends mother had health insurance and when she got cancer her health insurance company dropped her. She passed away last year and now her family is looking at almost $200k in debt because of the treatments. How is that anymore fair than you have to pay an extra couple hundred bucks a month? It's not but it's the lesser of two evils. If you are insured you don't have to pay anymore, I know some people have said their premiums will go up but premiums always go up. When I started my job 4 years ago I was paying $130/mo for my son and I's insurance premiums. Now it's just over $200/mo and we've been to the doctor a total of 6 times not counting his regular check ups and vaccinations. I feel better though about paying that knowing that if god forbid my son or myself get some horrible disease I can't just be dropped on a whim because I would hurt Anthem's bottom line.

[nikvoodoo]

I'm sorry, but I can't sit here and let "socialized medicine" be thrown about. This is NOT socialized medicine/healthcare. If the single payer option/public option existed: Yes. This would be closer to socialized. That is not what happened here. Nor are there death panels. Nor will you suddenly be paying for freeloaders (If you own insurance now you currently pay for free loaders). Just needed to put that out there.

[ClearSights]

I am personally for the PPACA or &quot;Obamacare&quot; I feel many people don't fully understand it. The mandate does not force everyone to have health care. If you don't have health care and you can afford...

[GeneTwo]

Don't worry reaper239, what ever is making you feel bad about health care reform, Obamacare will cover it.

[Eviebae]

Once upon a time, There was an invisible hand of the market. In this market everyone was a selfish bastard whose selfish bastardness (gimmee!! gimmee!!) worked to curb everyone else's selfish bastardness (ditto). Nothing ever happened where this broke down or didn't work. Nobody had to pay taxes and everybody was happy, at least those who counted, the end.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

The "it's against the constitution" argument is tired. The Constitution is being pimped. Reaper.. my man, WHICH one is being violated? The 10th? State's rights? IF healthcare was all privatized.. ie, Free Market, who'd be able to afford it? Free market is built on making as much money as possible while maintaining as low overhead as possible. Those who think the Free Market will balance itself out clearly haven't paid attention to the economy in the last 20 years.

While I do agree that states have to right to govern themselves, it is still up to the federal government to take care of the country as a whole and for the greater good. Ie, Civil rights.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Nik,

There's a cat I work with who posted a bunch on stuff on FB when this was passed. I walked over to his cubicle and asked him if he'd really read what it entailed? He hadn't. He actually thought the government was going to take over the HC system. LOL.
Now, the HC we get in the military isn't the best, but i've never really complained because it's free and i'm healthy, my kids and wife are covered too. I've looked at how much an MRI costs you civilians and shhhheee.. i've had at least 5 and getting ready to have another. Wooo!
Anyway, I digress.... My man thought the government was taking over healthcare. sheesh! Drinking the kool-aide

Reaper,
Thanks for bringing this up too dude.

[reaper239]

the only thing the past 20 prooves is that a market can't be free with an overly activist goernment. the laws of supply and demand disagree with you, a market, when not manipulated by a government,...

[yarri]

One of the things that would save a great deal of cost to those with insurance is if the hospitals were allowed to not have to treat anyone that didnt have an ability to pay. That is a HUGE amount of...

[reaper239]

One of the things that would save a great deal of cost to those with insurance is if the hospitals were allowed to not have to treat anyone that didnt have an ability to pay. That is a HUGE amount of the reason why costs are so high..

it won't change with obamacare, except where the cost is initially borne. if you don't have insurance, you're going to be fined, i mean "taxed," right? since the "tax" will most likely be less than most insurance policies, people who can't afford the insurance, or just don't want it, will just pay the fine. then, because they can't be denied coverage on the grounds of preexisting conditions, they'll get insurance when they need it and then drop it when they don't anymore. that means the cost of insurance will necesarrily have to rise to compensate for the insurance jumpers. also, we're being threatend with a "tax" on something we aren't doing, how messed up is that? just saying.