Chapter 31 Family Ties part 1

[nikvoodoo]

Discuss new episode here.

First person to make a Michael J Fox connection to the episodegets rep.

[VEE]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/Musicinadollshouse.jpg


http://www.ukbusinessdirectoryltd.co.uk/images/ties_pic.jpg

Alex P. Keaton

[UndeadSweeper]

"Scarface" was a mother? And she care? Sound like she had a boy.

[Mikeyd2tall]

Oh man. not fair. you have me feeling for SCRATCH. FOR SCRATCH! how Kc?! HOW! WHHYYYYY!!!!!???!?!!

[UndeadSweeper]

Oh man. not fair. you have me feeling for SCRATCH. FOR SCRATCH! how Kc?! HOW! WHHYYYYY!!!!!???!?!!

I know :(

[PuddleWhite]

Well, i fear people will be bitching about nothing happening again, so i wanted to say i liked it.
Also, just putting it out there- Scratch should kill Pegs and her and Michael should get together. Michael seems like a guy who wont be bothered if his lover cant have children...
I find it interesting that we haven't heard from fort Erwin. I guess the rest of the season would be all our remaining heroes going tot he colony, getting everyone, and then running for the fort?

[nikvoodoo]

"Scarface" was a mother? And she care? Sound like she had a boy.

Actually, it sounded like she had an abortion.

Sadly, my feed cut out just before the end so I didn't get the cliffhanger. What happened after Glen said he could possibly fix the phone?

[PuddleWhite]

They need to go back tot he colony to fix it, there's a part they need from glen's shack.

[HardKor]

Damn heavy episode. So we finally start to get some insight into Scratch's character and who she is. I still don't care how much they build her up, if it comes down to a Scratch or Pegs moment, scarface will have to go down!
And of course Lizzie's little bit of impromptu therapy got Scratch all riled up and after Burt. So now the question becomes is Burt about to go out like Angel did from a quick bullet to the skull or is Lizzie going to find out where Scratch went and interrupt?

And when Saul and Victor started talking about the satellite phone I think I facepalmed at the realization that Glen had one in his shack in The Colony. The plot lines are coming together. I can't wait to see where this one goes

[Privateer]

I couldn't see how any one could bitch about nothing happening. We learned an absurd amount here. Like, mad. Its just a little... Unsettling to see Scratch as a sympathetic character, but ooooooh, was Lizzy getting into her head! I wonder if thats the only reason she's keeping Lizzy's kid alive. I was thinking that maybe she wants to make sure 'the family' keeps going by adoption, but letting Lizzy keep the kid made that idea less valid. But we're quickly accelerating towards Tink: First Blood, Part 2. And more Burt!

Also- was a little concerned that Kc had made Angel a rather evil person, but then realized that Riley would have probably made a comment if Angel had been castrated. :P

[UndeadSweeper]

Actually, it sounded like she had an abortion.

Sadly, my feed cut out just before the end so I didn't get the cliffhanger. What happened after Glen said he could possibly fix the phone?

He need another phone so he move the guts to it. And he know where one is locate... at his shack...... at the Colony......

[nikvoodoo]

They need to go back tot he colony to fix it, there's a part they need from glen's shack.

Wonderful! Thanks! Fucking android...

[PuddleWhite]

if it comes down to a Scratch of Pegs moment, scarface will have to go down!

Bah, badasses over hippies i say! In this zombie wasteland, you need a woman that can gut a man trough the mouth, not one with mad flower arranging skills!

[Dyhoerium]

Damn you for making me have sympathy for Scratch! I wonder if Angel was the cousin. That would be an interesting twist.

[reaper239]

ZOMBABE!!!!!! so now we know a bit more about scratch's history. unfortunately i still have no pity for her. her actions are her own, and she is ultimately responsible. i do feel for her in the situation with her cousin, she was justified there, but everything that has happened since the outbreak is of her own doing.

glenn: i was going to say something important/
everyone else there: SHUT UP!

it's like michael all over again. more reasons to go to the colony.

[Litmaster]

Wow..... just.... wow. This was probably one of my most favorite episodes so far.

First of all, before I go with my Lit-Treatise and try to dissect the details and make hypothesis about there the story is going, I want to step back a bit an just appreciate what is being done here.

To Kc and the Cast: (the entire cast, including Grayson, the actors, and even the music people)

I've never been much of a horror fan and am not really into zombies, per se. When I first discovered We're Alive over a year ago, I thought the zombiepocalypse situation was somewhat interesting, but it would have fallen flat and dissolved into trivia and gimmicks long ago had I not been carried along into this story by the quality of the writing and of the production overall.

This story succeeds where a lot of Hollywood blockbusters fail because it is strong where they are weak: the plot is intricate and layered, the pacing is balanced and not over-reliant on superficial chase scenes and special effects, the characters are varied and nuanced and are drawn with real complexity and emotional depth, and it is all brought together and carried forth with an uncompromisingly high production quality, tasteful effects, and very competent, believable, and compelling acting. I just wanted to offer my biggest thanks and sincerest appreciation to the entire crew of We're Alive for putting together such a quality artistic product so consistently over the past several years. Not only that, but this podcast has probably done more to resurrect the dead-art of radio drama--and even surpass its previous achievements--than any other audio drama in the history of the medium.

I'm trying not to make this sound cheesy or stupidly fawning, but I can honestly say that I've gotten more entertainment value and overall satisfaction from We're Alive over the course of the past year than all the other movies, TV shows, books, podcasts, and radio shows put together; that is really an amazing achievement that I had no idea I was going to experience when I first stumbled across WA on iTunes early last summer.

I've decided to purchase the complete Season 1 and 2, (and 3 when it comes out) even though I've already listened to them many times, because this is exactly the kind of art I want to support. Even after this series is over, I get the feeling that I'll be following the name Kc Wayland on the internet for quite some time to come...




p.s. And to anyone who wants to bitch about nothing happening....

Screw you.
You're dumb.
You wouldn't know good art if it bit you in the ass.
Grow up.
Move out of your mom's basement.
Start learning how to appreciate something slightly more subtle than blood splatters, explosions, and car chases.

[/rant]

[PuddleWhite]

ZOMBABE!!!!!! so now we know a bit more about scratch's history. unfortunately i still have no pity for her. her actions are her own, and she is ultimately responsible. i do feel for her in the situation with her cousin, she was justified there, but everything that has happened since the outbreak is of her own doing.
Scratch doesn't want your pity, she wants your respect :D

[Privateer]

Damn you for making me have sympathy for Scratch! I wonder if Angel was the cousin. That would be an interesting twist.

I doubt it. I think Scratch gave the impression that she messed him up bad, in the, uh, offending region. Judging by him having a girlfriend, Scratch only vaugley recognizing him at first, and Riley not saying anything at the Stadium, I don't think he had such a scar.

[reaper239]

Scratch doesn't want your pity, she want your respect :D

i don't respect criminals and thugs.

[Dyhoerium]

I doubt it. I think Scratch gave the impression that she messed him up bad, in the, uh, offending region. Judging by him having a girlfriend, Scratch only vaugley recognizing him at first, and Riley not saying anything at the Stadium, I don't think he had such a scar.

Good point about Riley in the arena. I forgot she saw his underwhelming member!

[Privateer]

Hrm. Now think about it, doesn't the slavish devotion to code and her dead brother kinda put away the idea that Scratch being a psychopath/sociopath?

[PuddleWhite]

i don't respect criminals and thugs.
Not to imply that crime is good in any way, but allow me to indulge my Scratch fanishness in the following rant:
It is, as we can imagine, hard for women in the crime world. For scratch in particular, it meant dealing with rape, pregnancy and abortion at the far-from-ripe age of 16, and thats just what we know for certain about her. The whole situation is made harder by the fact that ist not something she chose, she was obviously born into The Family. In the present situation, we know she can handle a crew of convicts, not an easy feat for any man, and she is no man.
On the softer side, i may remind you that the reason Lizzie remains un-raped, un-worked to death and un-tortured for information is because of Scratch?
So, i personally don't think i would have been able to grow up where she did, and even if i did, i probably wouldn't have been able to give to shits about anyone else at that point.
And i believe that everyone that achieves something extraordinary should be respected, if not loved or liked. If nothing else, if you fail to see the capacity of your enemies, that would lessen your chances against them, right?

[Privateer]

Re: PuddleWhite:

The big question, I think everyone will agree, is /why/. She has absolutely no reason to treat Lizzie humanely other then pregger, and, eh, I don't know. She might just have a soft spot for kids.... well, unless you consider Hannah a kid. Kinda blows that idea away. And she's not only showing Lizzie's unborn son compassion, but seemed to nit be awful to Lizzie, either. And she's creepy and/or awful to /everyone/. So... Why! Damn you, Kc!

Hrm.... And with Burt, maybe she wanted to make sure Pegs killed her brother? Maybe to make sure Angel was really Angel? I've got a feeling he's gonna be an important topic at least once in the chapter.

[awkwardalex]

Oh damn! Awesome episode [like always]

Ah shit Scratch has a soul and feelings?!
Osiris will never let me hear the end of this.

[awkwardalex]

This episode furthers my thought that Saul will be caught somewhere in December, or go somewhere where they want his information.
"But let me go back...to November 27th."

[Witch_Doctor]

Onto bigger and better things: Glenn is the new Datu. I bet the thing he was going to say before he was given the Michael Cold Shoulder Treatment from Cj was he could fix the phone. If Datu can fix a shot to shit helicopter, it stands to reason that Glenn can make a sat phone that's broken in half work.

Prince Glenn the Handy. That is all!

I stand corrected, Sir. You called it

[PuddleWhite]

Well, if we suppose that Scratch was a nice person turned bad by circumstances, the answer is obvious- she cant just turn off her shield, her facade for the world, that would jeopardize her position. So Lizzie is her vicarious window into what she really wants, the dream of meeting someone wonderful, falling in love and making a family with. Instead she is born into a dysfunctional crime family where she is raped, and later loses the ability to have a child of her own, forever.
If we suppose thats true (quite a stretch, i admit), her choice of an abortion is quite brave - if she was goig to have a child, it was going to be on her own terms, and not anyone elses.

[Witch_Doctor]

Wow..... just.... wow. This was probably one of my most favorite episodes so far.

First of all, before I go with my Lit-Treatise and try to dissect the details and make hypothesis about there the story is going, I want to step back a bit an just appreciate what is being done here.

To Kc and the Cast: (the entire cast, including Grayson, the actors, and even the music people)

I've never been much of a horror fan and am not really into zombies, per se. When I first discovered We're Alive over a year ago, I thought the zombiepocalypse situation was somewhat interesting, but it would have fallen flat and dissolved into trivia and gimmicks long ago had I not been carried along into this story by the quality of the writing and of the production overall.

This story succeeds where a lot of Hollywood blockbusters fail because it is strong where they are weak: the plot is intricate and layered, the pacing is balanced and not over-reliant on superficial chase scenes and special effects, the characters are varied and nuanced and are drawn with real complexity and emotional depth, and it is all brought together and carried forth with an uncompromisingly high production quality, tasteful effects, and very competent, believable, and compelling acting. I just wanted to offer my biggest thanks and sincerest appreciation to the entire crew of We're Alive for putting together such a quality artistic product so consistently over the past several years. Not only that, but this podcast has probably done more to resurrect the dead-art of radio drama--and even surpass its previous achievements--than any other audio drama in the history of the medium.

I'm trying not to make this sound cheesy or stupidly fawning, but I can honestly say that I've gotten more entertainment value and overall satisfaction from We're Alive over the course of the past year than all the other movies, TV shows, books, podcasts, and radio shows put together; that is really an amazing achievement that I had no idea I was going to experience when I first stumbled across WA on iTunes early last summer.

I've decided to purchase the complete Season 1 and 2, (and 3 when it comes out) even though I've already listened to them many times, because this is exactly the kind of art I want to support. Even after this series is over, I get the feeling that I'll be following the name Kc Wayland on the internet for quite some time to come...





p.s. And to anyone who wants to bitch about nothing happening....

Screw you.
You're dumb.
You wouldn't know good art if it bit you in the ass.
Grow up.
Move out of your mom's basement.
Start learning how to appreciate something slightly more subtle than blood splatters, explosions, and car chases.

[/rant]

Yeah, what ^ he said. Ditto that.

[PuddleWhite]

Don't say that. It may or may not be true, but its not constructive. If you call a troll a troll, you've called him a name, you haven't solved anything. People come here expecting a tv show, and the right way to appease them is not to call them stupid, but to show them that it isn't, and it cant be, and that its good partially because it isn't. I don't believe they are dumb, or don't know art, or are immature. They just don't know how to look at it properly.

[Witch_Doctor]

Did y'all catch that ominous pause after Lizzy says, "I don't even know what I'm looking at. I mean, what is that?" Before Lizzy catches Scratch crying, she asks Scratch, "What's wrong? What do you see?"

[PuddleWhite]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the baby, if thats what you're getting at. What is that was supposed to signify that Lizzie couldn't read the sonogram, and ''What was wrong'', was Scratch getting chocked up, for whatever reason...

[reaper239]

Not to imply that crime is good in any way, but allow me to indulge my Scratch fanishness in the following rant:
It is, as we can imagine, hard for women in the crime world. For scratch in particular, it meant dealing with rape, pregnancy and abortion at the far-from-ripe age of 16, and thats just what we know for certain about her. The whole situation is made harder by the fact that ist not something she chose, she was obviously born into The Family. In the present situation, we know she can handle a crew of convicts, not an easy feat for any man, and she is no man.
On the softer side, i may remind you that the reason Lizzie remains un-raped, un-worked to death and un-tortured for information is because of Scratch?
So, i personally don't think i would have been able to grow up where she did, and even if i did, i probably wouldn't have been able to give to shits about anyone else at that point.
And i believe that everyone that achieves something extraordinary should be respected, if not loved or liked. If nothing else, if you fail to see the capacity of your enemies, that would lessen your chances against them, right?

i feel you, and yes i agree, very tough upbringing, very hard to find true north after being so spun around like that, but that doesn't remove her guilt for the things she's done. i know people who grew up in criminal families, but got out. it's possible, and if anything it shows scratch's true weakness. scratch is tough as nails in a fight and can put any man down with impunity, but she didn't have the strength to remove herself from that situation. that shows a true weakness of character. now, i'm not condeming her for that, few have the intestinal fortitude to leave like that, but that doesn't absolve her of her actions before the outbreak, and especially with the dissolution of social constructs after the outbreak. she clearly had a problem with what happened to her, so once she could get away from the family, why didn't she? it would've been fairly easy for her and latch to slip away in the night, but they didn't, and that makes her culpable for everything that she set in motion, to include the death of her brother.

[reaper239]

Hrm. Now think about it, doesn't the slavish devotion to code and her dead brother kinda put away the idea that Scratch being a psychopath/sociopath?

not really, there was no devotion to her cutting up that guy like a turkey dinner just so he would take the blame for the trucks dissapearing. she's a psychopath, even if complex and driven by a cause.

[Kc]

Wow..... just.... wow. This was probably one of my most favorite episodes so far.

First of all, before I go with my Lit-Treatise and try to dissect the details and make hypothesis about there the story is going, I want to step back a bit an just appreciate what is being done here.

To Kc and the Cast: (the entire cast, including Grayson, the actors, and even the music people)

I've never been much of a horror fan and am not really into zombies, per se. When I first discovered We're Alive over a year ago, I thought the zombiepocalypse situation was somewhat interesting, but it would have fallen flat and dissolved into trivia and gimmicks long ago had I not been carried along into this story by the quality of the writing and of the production overall.

Thanks! I appreciate that. One day I promise, a tell-all book. ;)

[awkwardalex]

God I loved hating scratch but I kinda love scratch cutting the guys nuts off! Damn, I mean if thathappened to me I'd do that and worse.
That would be a time I'd be glad I know Yarri, she could come up with something way worse then scratch or I could ever do.

[PuddleWhite]

Well, i will try and answer your point, but it is true, Scratch is not one of the good guys. I do, however think i can make her out to be one of the light grey guys...
So lets get to it :)
I would plead that it could have been Latch that kept her in. If i remember correctly, we know she did a crime, he got sent to jail for it, and she busted him out when the outbreak started. A somewhat unprobable, but possible scenario goes- after her crime she could have been trying to steer clear of The Family in the meantime (probably a hard thing to do with her previous record) when she gets a chance to spring her brother, whom she owes, from prison. She does, and here we have to ask ourselves, what kind of a guy Latch was. He might be Jesus reborn, but then again, it was him that tried to get Lizzie in exchange for the tanker, if you remember. Anyway, it's not inconceivable that he would want to stick to Duray, out of fear, or loyalty, or whatever, and its also probable that Scratch would not abandon him (My own brother is dumb, far more beautiful than me and does things i abhor every day. In an apocalypse though, i would never ever leave him by himself.). But then he gets killed, and Scratch wants revenge- irrational, stupid and understandable. Her only chance is sticking with the maulers, whatever they might do, be it slavery or whatever.

Of course, its a far fetched theory, born from my want for Scratch to be good more than anything else.

[reaper239]

Well, i will try and answer your point, but it is true, Scratch is not one of the good guys. I do, however think i can make her out to be one of the light grey guys...
So lets get to it :)
I would plead that it could have been Latch that kept her in. If i remember correctly, we know she did a crime, he got sent to jail for it, and she busted him out when the outbreak started. A somewhat unprobable, but possible scenario goes- after her crime she could have been trying to steer clear of The Family in the meantime (probably a hard thing to do with her previous record) when she gets a chance to spring her brother, whom she owes, from prison. She does, and here we have to ask ourselves, what kind of a guy Latch was. He might be Jesus reborn, but then again, it was him that tried to get Lizzie in exchange for the tanker, if you remember. Anyway, it's not inconceivable that he would want to stick to Duray, out of fear, or loyalty, or whatever, and its also probable that Scratch would not abandon him (My own brother is dumb, far more beautiful than me and does things i abhor every day. In an apocalypse though, i would never ever leave him by himself.). But then he gets killed, and Scratch wants revenge- irrational, stupid and understandable. Her only chance is sticking with the maulers, whatever they might do, be it slavery or whatever.

Of course, its a far fetched theory, born from my want for Scratch to be good more than anything else.

true, it is entirely possible that latch was the reason they stuck with the mallers, but somehow i think it was less to do with latch and more to do with a joint desire for self preservation. after springing them, scratch had the number two position in the mallers. that affords her a lot of protection, both from external threats, and from internal threats. self preservation is a powerful thing, and can drive people to do insane things. in "The Book of Eli" we're introduced to the possiblility (not for the first time) of survivors in arid climates with little food and water turning to cannabalism to survive. true it is a movie, but are we so sure that people wouldn't be driven to that extreme just to ensure their survival. and we know that such acts have occured in the past from the donner party. well here they're not worried about food as much as they are with zombies. while we may not necessarily blame her for sticking with the mallers, she must still be held accountable for her actions understandable or not.

[PuddleWhite]

Well, i guess I hope for redemption then :)
Btw, did you know that, in the book of Eli, the reason they always checked the hands of strangers is because they were looking for shaking? Uncontrollable twitching is a symptom of Kuru, a degenerative neurological disease that you get from eating human meat. That's why both the bartender and the shopkeeper wanted to see Eli's hands and thats how he found out that the elderly couple were cannibals.

[Loyal Retainer]

Alright, so it sounds like Scratch was heading to see Burt with Lizzy and Bricks hot on her trail. So how do you guys see this playing out when Lizzy finds out about Burt being held captive? Does she play it cool and go along with it or demand that he is let go? Will she try to use her newly gained personal info on Scratch to convince her to let him go? This is about to get really interesting!

[awkwardalex]

Well, i will try and answer your point, but it is true, Scratch is not one of the good guys. I do, however think i can make her out to be one of the light grey guys...
So lets get to it :)
I would plead that it could have been Latch that kept her in. If i remember correctly, we know she did a crime, he got sent to jail for it, and she busted him out when the outbreak started. A somewhat unprobable, but possible scenario goes- after her crime she could have been trying to steer clear of The Family in the meantime (probably a hard thing to do with her previous record) when she gets a chance to spring her brother, whom she owes, from prison. She does, and here we have to ask ourselves, what kind of a guy Latch was. He might be Jesus reborn, but then again, it was him that tried to get Lizzie in exchange for the tanker, if you remember. Anyway, it's not inconceivable that he would want to stick to Duray, out of fear, or loyalty, or whatever, and its also probable that Scratch would not abandon him (My own brother is dumb, far more beautiful than me and does things i abhor every day. In an apocalypse though, i would never ever leave him by himself.). But then he gets killed, and Scratch wants revenge- irrational, stupid and understandable. Her only chance is sticking with the maulers, whatever they might do, be it slavery or whatever.

Of course, its a far fetched theory, born from my want for Scratch to be good more than anything else.

I agree with most of that. Family is definatly important to scratch no question. Avenging Latch maybe more of family love then "the famlies". I have to agree my brother is pretty and dumb and I worry about him going anywhere alone, and he gets anything he wants, but when someone comes after him (which has happened) you have to hold me back from avenging him, and he and I have done so for each other several times. So I can definatly see why scratch wants to torture Pegs and kill her.

Scratch can be irrational but she is not dumb. She doesn't have stratigical training that Michael has but she is not dumb. She does need the Mallers, she needs people to work for her, she needs intel, food, medical, and more.

But I do not see her as a "grey guy" she was bad before losing Latch.

[Penguine]

First.. great episode. New crush on Scratch. So when do we get to learn her real name. Could it possible that Durai is the "older cousin"? I don't know, just a thought.

Scratch is all hell-bent on her oath to kill Pegs, but Pegs is now in Boulder. How pissed is Scratch going to be when she learns that little tid bit of information? Will Scratch make her way to boulder to put a bullet in Pegs? That's a long trek from Cali to Colorado.

I'm feeling sorry for Burt right now cause I am thinking that the old man is in for a serious ass-whooping. I don't think he will break though, I think he will revert to his USMC training and give name and SSn and call it a day. Just hoping that Scratch doesn't put a bullet in him. Maybe when the Dynamic Duo make it to the Colony they will spring Burt?

So let's say that Saul and Victor (Batman and Robin / the Dynamic Duo - LOL) go down to the Colony and get the phone and somehow find Lizzy. Is she going to go with Saul? Right now she is safe with the Mallers and I highly doubt Bricks will let anyone/anything lay a finger on her. I think Lizzy would leave if she knew for sure about Ft. Irwin, otherwise I think she will tell Saul she is staying put.

Saul and Victor are a great team. I like how they started off at odds with each other but have since come together and got each others back. Im thinking Victor has some tricks up his sleave, something a lot more then an insurance salesman. Maybe he is prior SEAL/Ranger/LAPD SWAT/something and just hasn't let the cat out of the bag yet?

Maybe CJ should put her feeling out there. Keeping it bottled up and not telling Saul she is wanting to be with him. Crazy. Saul might have decided to stick with her, maybe take her to Irwin and skip Lizzy if she would just put it out there. Prolly not though.. Saul seems pretty intent on getting her back.

[7oddisdead]

holy crap!! i knew that voice..veronica belmont? thats friggin rad

anyways...reguardless of your opinions behind scratch. i think we call all (maybe all but one) agree jenna knocked it out of the park in this episode.

hmm..i really have nothing else to add in here at the moment...good stuff..good good stuff

[Z Sniper]

First.. great episode. New crush on Scratch. So when do we get to learn her real name. Could it possible that Durai is the "older cousin"? I don't know, just a thought.

Scratch is all hell-bent on her oath to kill Pegs, but Pegs is now in Boulder. How pissed is Scratch going to be when she learns that little tid bit of information? Will Scratch make her way to boulder to put a bullet in Pegs? That's a long trek from Cali to Colorado.

I'm feeling sorry for Burt right now cause I am thinking that the old man is in for a serious ass-whooping. I don't think he will break though, I think he will revert to his USMC training and give name and SSn and call it a day. Just hoping that Scratch doesn't put a bullet in him. Maybe when the Dynamic Duo make it to the Colony they will spring Burt?

So let's say that Saul and Victor (Batman and Robin / the Dynamic Duo - LOL) go down to the Colony and get the phone and somehow find Lizzy. Is she going to go with Saul? Right now she is safe with the Mallers and I highly doubt Bricks will let anyone/anything lay a finger on her. I think Lizzy would leave if she knew for sure about Ft. Irwin, otherwise I think she will tell Saul she is staying put.

Saul and Victor are a great team. I like how they started off at odds with each other but have since come together and got each others back. Im thinking Victor has some tricks up his sleave, something a lot more then an insurance salesman. Maybe he is prior SEAL/Ranger/LAPD SWAT/something and just hasn't let the cat out of the bag yet?

Maybe CJ should put her feeling out there. Keeping it bottled up and not telling Saul she is wanting to be with him. Crazy. Saul might have decided to stick with her, maybe take her to Irwin and skip Lizzy if she would just put it out there. Prolly not though.. Saul seems pretty intent on getting her back.

Victor is an ASSASSIN!! OOOPS,...did I just blurt that out?

[reaper239]

Well, i guess I hope for redemption then :)
Btw, did you know that, in the book of Eli, the reason they always checked the hands of strangers is because they were looking for shaking? Uncontrollable twitching is a symptom of Kuru, a degenerative neurological disease that you get from eating human meat. That's why both the bartender and the shopkeeper wanted to see Eli's hands and thats how he found out that the elderly couple were cannibals.

why, yes i did. did you also know that in certain cannibal cultures, they refer to their human food as long pig? if anyone offers you long pig, DON'T EAT IT!

[Devilish Pizza]

WOOOOO!!!! <br />
I believe that it has finally been &quot;stated&quot; that Bricks will be joining the good guys at some stage. When Scratch and Durai were talking about not getting any info out of Burt, we heard...

[awkwardalex]

Victor is an ASSASSIN!! OOOPS,...did I just blurt that out?
Oh dear Otto. Now KC will kill Victor!

[7oddisdead]

scratching joining the crew is impossible to believe, but if we think waay back to season one. when scratch and latch were &quot;shopping&quot; in the dept. store, saul was not close enough to the store to...

[Tielurrdee]

Yes Im with you on the belief that bricks will be in some parts with our crew. It's been said before but I think that conversation may be a big hint. I'm sure there are other conversations in past...

[wh33t]

Before I get into my take on this weeks chapter opener I want to say a few things to KC and the crew as well. I know from time to time your fans and audience get rather impatient and call episodes "meatless" or slow, or dull but I honestly don't think any one who says that is trying to insult the work and efforts put into the production. Coming from a personal view of someone on the outside, looking in (a fan), KC you might not realize how much some of us obsess over the production. During those long drawn out months where you build and build plot we endure an intense struggle waiting for the plot to suddenly unravel and it can be excruciating especially when so many of us spend so much time on the forums solving the mysteries before you reveal them. So when the story does unravel and it's exactly what we figured it would be (such as the Kalani spy component) it can be rather anti-climatic, but that's no fault of yours. It just goes to show how deep the story and the characters go. Which is something I don't think many of us are familiar with. I will also state from a personal perspective that the seemingly long drawn out episodes of plot development actually aren't that long at all when you can listen to the episodes back to back to back. It's just the once a week, then two weeks off for the next chapter waiting times that make them seem dull. Basically all I'm saying is that you are all doing a fantastic job, and don't mind us We're Alive Junkies, we're just addicted and you can never trust a junkie's opinion on how they feel about their addiction. Please continue to do the wonderfully awesome work that you've been doing! Maybe I'm just speaking for myself here, but I think you know what is best for us and I trust your decisions. Also, you give this all away for free. Amazing! I'm honestly touched at your generosity.

So here is what I took from the Episode.

There is certainly some conflict between Durai and Scratch. What was surprising to me is that Durai seems to respect Scratch a little more than I figured he might. It almost seems like Scratch might even have as much power as Durai does, at least when following "the rules" (the revenge rules in this case).

No surprise that Scratch has some horrifically scarring (no pun intended) emotional moments in her life which has led her on this psychopathic journey. To all of those out there that say "so what, she's still a horrible person", look up some of Gabor Mate's research on human behavior and development. I'll sum it up for you though, the human body itself is a living organism, if it's functioning correctly it's primary goal is to defend itself. What has been learned recently through Science is just how far the body will go to achieve this. It's now understood that during your childhood and up until you are an adult a humans genetics are almost like an open book. In other words your genes take in environmental stimulus. If your genes are receiving information that the world is harsh, unfriendly and scarce then your genetics bond in a way that will allow you to survive in such a hostile world. Let's just take a guess at how Scratches genes have formed and what kind of behavior she will be prone to acting out. It's not that I'm excusing criminal behaviour, but rather I understand that it's a not a moral conflict. It's learned. You don't want to punish bad behaviour, you want to rehabilitate it. And every elementary school teacher knows this, and so does the Dog Whisperer. Ok, so that's that.

With the above said, I'm still not convinced that Scratch has Lizzies best intentions at heart. I think she still might be wanting this child to survive for some other reason. Perhaps Scratch knows something or other about Saul's immunity. She is at the colony and she might somehow know about Tanya's bite and could put the two together? Scratch does make some kind of strange gesture when she is looking at the Ultrasound picture which to me sounded like some kind of foreshadowing that this baby is gonna come out half Zombie like or something. Only time will tell and I'm soooo excited to see how this plays out.

On Glenn fixing the sat phone, this is like one of those things I mentioned at the beginning of this post. We knew it was gonna happen. We even figured Glenn was going to mention about how he tried to say something but was interrupted. This is what happens when you are a We're Alive junky. But awesome none-the-less, I hope they fix it and call up Michael and then Michael and his knew side kick can come down and kick some ass! Oh yea, seeing Riley back in action would be pretty sweet too.

Also, we're only 5 chapters away from Season 3 ending! Wow!

[buzzbros2002]

So yeah, that just happened. We now have an almost sure trip to the colony for Victor and Saul, if not the others as well. We're more confused about how we feel about Scratch now than we were when Jenna McCombie was on We're Not Dead, which that were some confusing feelings enough. Top that all off with Veronica Belmont. And guess what people? This is only part one. Stay tuned to part two where a love triangle is revealed, someone dies, and Michael J. Fox reprises his role as Alex P. Keaton. All that and more on part two of Family Ties: Post Apocalypse edition.


Thanks! I appreciate that. One day I promise, a tell-all book. ;)

You shouldn't have said that because now I'm going to hold you to that.


Victor is an ASSASSIN!! OOOPS,...did I just blurt that out?

Well, it was nice knowing your voice Otto, but I fear KC is going to have to terminate Victor now.

[Zombiphobe]

It's now understood that during your childhood and up until you are an adult a humans genetics are almost like an open book. In other words your genes take in environmental stimulus. If your genes are receiving information that the world is harsh, unfriendly and scarce then your genetics bond in a way that will allow you to survive in such a hostile world. Let's just take a guess at how Scratches genes have formed.

As a point of clarification. A person's DNA/genes/genetic code is essentially fixed from conception; it is NOT an open book waiting to be formed from some environmental stimilus. What I think you are bringing up is the whole debate over Nature vs. Nurture. Are someone's actions and behaviour the result of some genetic predisposition from birth or are they a result of their upbringing and environment? Following your dog analogy, could a dog be overly agressive because they belong to a certain breed with a genetic predisposition toward agresssion or was it raised in such a way that resulted in this agressive behavior? Both factors can influence who we are and how we behave, but they are not the same thing.

While I agree that the environment that Scratch grew up in and the events in her past most definitely had a hand in the person she has become, her environment growing up did not alter her on a genetic level.

[BoomerXL]

Well, another great episode, I'm definitely looing forward to where the Scratch/Durai storyline goes. I also like how close it seems Lizzy and Bricks have become, I wonder if it'll lead to some sort of conflict with Saul in the future. Oh and I can't wait until they bring Burt back....I'm praying he doesn't die like Angel did, they made it sound like he's in alot better shape physically than Angel was just before he died, can't wait for next Monday!

[wh33t]

As a point of clarification. A person's DNA/genes/genetic code is essentially fixed from conception; it is NOT an open book waiting to be formed from some environmental stimilus. What I think you are bringing up is the whole debate over Nature vs. Nurture. Are someone's actions and behaviour the result of some genetic predisposition from birth or are they a result of their upbringing and environment? Following your dog analogy, could a dog be overly agressive because they belong to a certain breed with a genetic predisposition toward agresssion or was it raised in such a way that resulted in this agressive behavior? Both factors can influence who we are and how we behave, but they are not the same thing.

While I agree that the environment that Scratch grew up in and the events in her past most definitely had a hand in the person she has become, her environment growing up did not alter her on a genetic level.

I am not referring to Nature versus Nurture as it's been proven it's not one or the other but both. A child that is born with perfectly working eyes that is shut in total darkness for the first few years of it's life is said to be blind thereafter. Scientists claim this is because the during the first crucial years of a new borns development the genes are trying to figure out which genes are useful in this world and which ones are not. If there is nothing to see, the genes that help with eye development will not form, or not form fully. If you compare another mammal such as a horse that walks and eats on it's first day of birth versus a human child, you can tell that the horse is born with most of it's functionality fully formed whereas a human being can't really do anything until it's about 3 or 4. So the horse is being programmed during Utero and is mostly genetically developed at birth. A human being is genetically programmed during Utero and post Utero. So I'm not saying you can discount Nature or Nurture, but you have to take both into account. PM me if you'd like some links to check out.

[Privateer]

Re Scratch being good:
No. Nope. Regardless of her upbringing, Scratch is callous and often needlessly violent. Yes, she's also a human being, and thus had to grow up, like everyone else, there is no redemption for her. She's been starving Burt, she shot my fav character in thw fave, etc. :P But she ain't Magus. Ain't no heel turn from criminal pathology. She's remorseless.

Re: Genetics.
I'm gonna have to agree that genetics are kinda determined at birth. Development and cellular growth can be stunted, yes, but its not gonna change the genetic makeup of... You. I don't think. I'd love to see those links out of curiosity regarding their credibility.

[wh33t]

Re Scratch being good:
No. Nope. Regardless of her upbringing, Scratch is callous and often needlessly violent. Yes, she's also a human being, and thus had to grow up, like everyone else, there is no redemption for her. She's been starving Burt, she shot my fav character in thw fave, etc. :P But she ain't Magus. Ain't no heel turn from criminal pathology. She's rather remorseless.

Re: Genetics.
I'm gonna have to agree that genetics are kinda determined at birth. Development and cellular growth can be stunted, yes, but its not gonna change the genetic makeup of... You. I don't think. I'd love to see those links out of curiosity regarding they're credibility.

Lol, well we can only speculate on Scratch. She's the character you love to hate, but oddly since I've understood how behaviour is so affected by genetic responses I've always known Scratch would have some kind of horror stories in her upbringing. It's just so rare that people are psychotic with out some kind of horrendous abhorrent upbringing. I'll PM you some links to check out.

[mageftw]

I Think Lizzy is experiencing stockholm syndrome. scratch is giving her freedom around the colony as she was in pete's shop but still being monitored. Maybe it is scratches intentions for Lizzy to identify with her so she can get info on the tower people and there location. or scratch has feelings for Lizzy, she has no more use for her so why keep her?

[mageftw]

Actually, it sounded like she had an abortion.

Sadly, my feed cut out just before the end so I didn't get the cliffhanger. What happened after Glen said he could possibly fix the phone?

there is a phone in his shack at the colony. saul thinks he can use this to get permission from cj to go to the colony

[Godsendunlimited]

Crazy episode. What did scratch need to make sure of? I think during the context of when she said it it had to do something with the story. so either make sure bricks was listening or make sure who raped her. Since she left with determination after talking to bricks it was probably the second. Now this has already been theorised it could be Angel or Durai. Obviously there is something between Durai and scratch. It adds up if it was him and he does seem like an older cousin. But that could mean a allied family if it was in the mob sense. But I still like the sense of a literal family, just from the fact she said the ring with the crest was a birth right. (also the "from life til death" phrase)

[Miss]

Ive loved Victor in this episode

[MenashaCorpse]

Discuss new episode here.

First person to make a Michael J Fox connection to the episodegets rep.

Family Ties. What would we do, baby...without us? Sit Ubu sit! Good dog! *woof!* WTG Vee!!


OMFG - I'M DEAD!!!! Scratch put me down!! "Don't make the same mistake he did..." I can only hope I'm a slave in the fields..

Kinda cool to get a callback/shoutout ;^)

[Privateer]

I Think Lizzy is experiencing stockholm syndrome. scratch is giving her freedom around the colony as she was in pete's shop but still being monitored. Maybe it is scratches intentions for Lizzy to identify with her so she can get info on the tower people and there location. or scratch has feelings for Lizzy, she has no more Iuse for her so why keep her?

I have to agree with what some other folks were saying before. Lizzy is a trained psycholosomething. She knows what thats about, and I think its clear feom how she tried to get away that she'd rather not be there. Also, from how she lept into Scratch's brain. I'm fairly positive that asking if Scratch knew what the thing was on the sonogram was less identifying that, and more coaxing Scratch towards something she was clearly avoiding.

[wh33t]

I have to agree with what some other folks were saying before. Lizzy is a trained psycholosomething. She knows what thats about, and I think its clear feom how she tried to get away that she'd rather not be there. Also, from how she lept into Scratch's brain. I'm fairly positive that asking if Scratch knew what the thing was on the sonogram was less identifying that, and more coaxing Scratch towards something she was clearly avoiding.

So you think Lizzie was reading into an emotional response Scratch was having versus a look of perplexity or something else less emotional? That does seem highly plausible as well.

[wh33t]

:O I just had another thought. What if Angels dad was the one who raped Scratch? During the final moments of Angels life when Scratch is interrogating him she teases Angel about his last name and the family ties. Angel has his strongest reaction to the whole thing when Scratch starts talking about Angels father and that's when Scratch corrects herself by saying "but I know you are different" ... Could the rape that Angels father was a part of be the reason Angel goes against and leaves his family and the whole crime syndicate life?

[nikvoodoo]

:O I just had another thought. What if Angels dad was the one who raped Scratch? During the final moments of Angels life when Scratch is interrogating him she teases Angel about his last name and the family ties. Angel has his strongest reaction to the whole thing when Scratch starts talking about Angels father and that's when Scratch corrects herself by saying "but I know you are different" ... Could the rape that Angels father was a part of be the reason Angel goes against and leaves his family and the whole crime syndicate life?

My name is Nikvoodoo, and I approve ^this^ message.

I like it. That makes a whole metric butt ton of sense, and it ties everything in together: Why Angel would recognize Scratch from the beginning, want to kill her without asking questions, why exposing his first name would be a big f'ing deal, why blonde boy-o gets under his skin so much, and his reaction prior to being killed.

Sold.

[Nedjema]

Damn it Kc for giving Scratch a soft side. I wanted to completely hate her, not feel any sort of sympathy for her. Now I'm confused.

By the way Scratch described her pregnancy and abortion, I wouldn't doubt if not only did she lose her child via abortion, but she left herself physically unable to ever conceive again. And then she made sure it was the same for her asshole cousin. She can never be a mother and she doesn't want to rob someone else of that right either, so she is protective of Lizzie and her baby.

Lizzie being pregnant complicates things for Saul attempting to rescue her from the colony. Outside of the colony and the doctors a pregnant woman hardly stands a chance. She can only survive if she can make it to fort Irwin, but that's not a guarantee. I still think she'll follow Saul out if he comes though, and Bricks will follow too.

I'm surprised at the order of the things though. It was obvious Glenn would be able to fix the sat phone (he's the master of all forms of communications), but I thought the phone would be fixed first, they would call fort Irwin, touchy reunion over the phone ("You're alive? I'm alive! you're alive? he's alive! she's alive! yay!"), and then an attack on the colony and the mallers with Irwin soldiers, Michael, Saul and Victor, and then Burt would die, guns blazing in glory. But it looks like attack on the colony first, then the sat phone is fixed, then they call fort Irwin. Well, It'll be more like a stealthy infiltration into the colony rather than an attack actually.

[ellea]

:O I just had another thought. What if Angels dad was the one who raped Scratch? During the final moments of Angels life when Scratch is interrogating him she teases Angel about his last name and the family ties. Angel has his strongest reaction to the whole thing when Scratch starts talking about Angels father and that's when Scratch corrects herself by saying "but I know you are different" ... Could the rape that Angels father was a part of be the reason Angel goes against and leaves his family and the whole crime syndicate life?

Exactly what I was thinking. I had to go back to ch. 29 to make sure I remembered what Scratch said to Angel.

[7oddisdead]

only question I would have with this whole angels father thing is this...how old is scratch? Would that age math make sense?...aside from that...hell yea...im on board too. Also, I spent a few minutes google detectiving the symbol on the ring and aside from the trinity reference...i got nothing. I think the main thing we can gather from it is the "family" is three families ei: angels, scratch's, durai's..but with that...would angels father actually be the "cousin"

[ellea]

Wiki entry for Scratch: Age: 30 at the beginning of the Story

[Nedjema]

Angel's father thing does makes sense, especially since Scratch makes reference to Angel's nose and chin being familiar. As for the age difference, he could be a second cousin (like my Dad's cousin is still my cousin), or who knows how many Aunts and Uncles she has, she could be the child of the youngest sibling, and he could be the child of an oldest. We know nothing about Angel's Dad, he could have been relatively young when he had Angel. There are plenty of families with big age differences between cousins, and I wouldn't doubt Scratch's is one.

[cupcakezombie]

I think you are pointing to the Nature Nuture thing in another way. I agree that the environment we are placed in does have an effect on how genes are expressed/turned on, but the genes are there from birth. Taking your blind example, you are saying if someone is deprived of light, the sight genes don't get activated, but if one of the genes for sight is not present, no amount of exposure to light or visual stimuli is able to change that. The environment can not change what is present.
The difference between horses and humans at birth is also due to the environment and survival. While the ability of a horse to able to run and eat on day one is really important to its survival, there are a lot of environmental factors that will affect it's temperament etc there after. But neither humans or horses can change the colour their eyes etc.
I really like this debate because I think it relates to the zombies/zombie types and how they develop. Especially in regards to the little/big ones and other types of zombies. Is the difference due to different strains or are there environmental factors causing some of them to get bigger (kind of like building their muscles.). We know that the smart ones were most likely smarter in life, but noone would grow as big as a behmouth. Is whatever causes zombieism causing the growth or activating something in the body that causes growth? Could only a certain type of person become a certain type of zombie? Was there something special about the guy who became a not so little one in the last episode?

[wh33t]

I think you are pointing to the Nature Nuture thing in another way. I agree that the environment we are placed in does have an effect on how genes are expressed/turned on, but the genes are there from birth. Taking your blind example, you are saying if someone is deprived of light, the sight genes don't get activated, but if one of the genes for sight is not present, no amount of exposure to light or visual stimuli is able to change that. The environment can not change what is present.
The difference between horses and humans at birth is also due to the environment and survival. While the ability of a horse to able to run and eat on day one is really important to its survival, there are a lot of environmental factors that will affect it's temperament etc there after. But neither humans or horses can change the colour their eyes etc.
I really like this debate because I think it relates to the zombies/zombie types and how they develop. Especially in regards to the little/big ones and other types of zombies. Is the difference due to different strains or are there environmental factors causing some of them to get bigger (kind of like building their muscles.). We know that the smart ones were most likely smarter in life, but noone would grow as big as a behmouth. Is whatever causes zombieism causing the growth or activating something in the body that causes growth? Could only a certain type of person become a certain type of zombie? Was there something special about the guy who became a not so little one in the last episode?

That is essentially what I am saying, it's not Nature Vs Nuture, it's both. Both environments play a significant role in your genetic development and your genetic development greatly affects how you react in a variety of different situations. If cruelty is a strength in your particular environment then you will receive a chemical reward in your brain from cruelty. That kind of reward mechanism is what is shaped largely in the post-utero phase of life.

[Zombiephyllic]

I really liked this episode. I'm not sure how I feel about Scratch though. Even if her story's true I don't see her becoming this over protective mama bear for Lizzy because she's preggers. She's a ruthless B* and from what we've seen so far she has little value for human life. I could be wrong but lets do a quick recap here, she shot the guy at the mall to cover her and Latch's ass for loosing the tanker, sent a team of guys to the golf course to get slaughtered as decoys while she attacks the tower again, had them kill Hanna or dopple-Hanna, and not to mention the other stuff she's done under orders. I just find it hard to believe that she's protecting Lizzy and the baby without some ulterior motives.

I'm getting really excited that operation Lizzy-Burt-breakout is gaining momentum. And I'm happy that it'll happen without help from fort Erwin. I would love to see them get in and out without a hitch but we all know that's not going to happen. In talking with friends we've ran down a few scenarios we think could be possibilities. We definitely think that there will be one or more colonists liberated during the breakout, Bricks being a strong candidate. In a "wouldn't it suck if..." moment a friend thought that maybe Lizzy and Burt will find a way to escape so when Saul and Vic get there, Saul is disappointed that his search isn't over. Then this thought struck, Saul, Vic, and CJ manage to infiltrate the colony, find Lizzy, Burt, and the SAT phone but Saul gets captured in the process. That would suck!!! Don't do it KC!!

[7oddisdead]

Whoa...what if...

Operation: rescue Lizzie goes off without a hitch...but nobody knows Burt is there?

Maybe that's the straw that breaks bricks...hmmm..

[nikvoodoo]

I really liked this episode. I'm not sure how I feel about Scratch though. Even if her story's true I don't see her becoming this over protective mama bear for Lizzy because she's preggers. She's a ruthless B* and from what we've seen so far she has little value for human life. I could be wrong but lets do a quick recap here, she shot the guy at the mall to cover her and Latch's ass for loosing the tanker, sent a team of guys to the golf course to get slaughtered as decoys while she attacks the tower again, had them kill Hanna or dopple-Hanna, and not to mention the other stuff she's done under orders. I just find it hard to believe that she's protecting Lizzy and the baby without some ulterior motives.

Could also be that Scratch believes Lizzy and Angel are an item and the baby belongs to him. Not sure how that jives into general history and experiences but if she's protecting a family member....*shrug*.

And good on Kc for the accuracy of pregnancy. I understand everyone's is different, but I feel like Lizzy and Mrs. Voodoo are kindred spirits. Lizzy and my wife were on the exact same time table and when it came time for Thanksgiving/Christmas there was nothing she could do easily anymore. Remember those Crash Test Dummy action figures from back in the day? She felt like one of those because her hips felt like they were going to pop out of the socket at any moment.

And those damn sonograms are hard as all get out to understand sometimes especially if the tech snaps a bad picture. We have pictures of our spawn (chuckle!) from the big sonogram and by god if you could make out any piece of it. We either got a picture of my daughter's head or she mooned us. We still aren't all that sure which.

[werewolf]

she's mooning you Nik LOL. Anyways, did anybody else get the feeling the Bricks is starting to fall for Lizzy. I have a feeling that Bricks is a good guy deep down. ( I think this came up before) And if push comes to shove,that he would take anybody out even if it's Scratch. That he will more likely help Lizzy and Burt escape in the end. Or am i reading too much in to the relationship of protector and protected. And what happen to the Doctor? he pissed off Scratch. Being the only doctor left I don't think you want to off him by any means.

[Condor]

To all that called the last part "meatless", suck it, there's plenty to digest in this part.

At about 8:40, right after Lizzy gets the printout, is that a zombie growl?
Funniest part:

Victor: Hold on... Hey Glenn...
(we knew where that was going) lol



I couldn't see how any one could bitch about nothing happening. We learned an absurd amount here. Like, mad. Its just a little... Unsettling to see Scratch as a sympathetic character, but ooooooh, was Lizzy getting into her head! I wonder if thats the only reason she's keeping Lizzy's kid alive. I was thinking that maybe she wants to make sure 'the family' keeps going by adoption, but letting Lizzy keep the kid made that idea less valid. But we're quickly accelerating towards Tink: First Blood, Part 2. And more Burt!

Also- was a little concerned that Kc had made Angel a rather evil person, but then realized that Riley would have probably made a comment if Angel had been castrated. :PI'm sure Scratch has never lied, right?


First.. great episode. New crush on Scratch. So when do we get to learn her real name. Could it possible that Durai is the "older cousin"? I don't know, just a thought.

Scratch is all hell-bent on her oath to kill Pegs, but Pegs is now in Boulder. How pissed is Scratch going to be when she learns that little tid bit of information? Will Scratch make her way to boulder to put a bullet in Pegs? That's a long trek from Cali to Colorado.

I'm feeling sorry for Burt right now cause I am thinking that the old man is in for a serious ass-whooping. I don't think he will break though, I think he will revert to his USMC training and give name and SSn and call it a day. Just hoping that Scratch doesn't put a bullet in him. Maybe when the Dynamic Duo make it to the Colony they will spring Burt?

So let's say that Saul and Victor (Batman and Robin / the Dynamic Duo - LOL) go down to the Colony and get the phone and somehow find Lizzy. Is she going to go with Saul? Right now she is safe with the Mallers and I highly doubt Bricks will let anyone/anything lay a finger on her. I think Lizzy would leave if she knew for sure about Ft. Irwin, otherwise I think she will tell Saul she is staying put.

Saul and Victor are a great team. I like how they started off at odds with each other but have since come together and got each others back. Im thinking Victor has some tricks up his sleave, something a lot more then an insurance salesman. Maybe he is prior SEAL/Ranger/LAPD SWAT/something and just hasn't let the cat out of the bag yet?

Maybe CJ should put her feeling out there. Keeping it bottled up and not telling Saul she is wanting to be with him. Crazy. Saul might have decided to stick with her, maybe take her to Irwin and skip Lizzy if she would just put it out there. Prolly not though.. Saul seems pretty intent on getting her back.
Doubt Durai is the cousin, even with "the rules" I believe Scratch would finish the job and blame the zombies for killing him.
No way would Lizzy stay, even if she's safe, she's basically in a prison. No matter what, she will go with Saul. Most likely though Bricks will go with them as her bodyguard.



OMFG - I'M DEAD!!!! Scratch put me down!! "Don't make the same mistake he did..." I can only hope I'm a slave in the fields..

Kinda cool to get a callback/shoutout ;^)
That's what you get for not fixing that hole Scratch put in Angel's head.


Wonderful! Thanks! Fucking android...Dude, tmi, we don't need to know about your personal life.

[Zombiephyllic]

And what happen to the Doctor? he pissed off Scratch. Being the only doctor left I don't think you want to off him by any means.

Oh yeah, I caught that at first but completely forgot about it. Wonder what he could have done.

[cupcakezombie]

And what happen to the Doctor? he pissed off Scratch. Being the only doctor left I don't think you want to off him by any means.

I think the Doc is out of the picture. We hear the dentist say at 6:14 that she is the only one here now. My thought is that he had some issues with how Angel died and tried to take them up with Scratch. Whether he is dead or on other 'duties' though, I don't know.

[littleone8]

My name is Nikvoodoo, and I approve ^this^ message.

I like it. That makes a whole metric butt ton of sense, and it ties everything in together: Why Angel would recognize Scratch from the beginning, want to kill her without asking questions, why exposing his first name would be a big f'ing deal, why blonde boy-o gets under his skin so much, and his reaction prior to being killed.

Sold.

I don't think it was the father, maybe a brother of Angles.

[littleone8]

A few things:

- We are for sure going to see Lizzy's baby used against Scratch.
- Lizzy is comfortable enough around Bricks to yell at him. So there is some kind of relationship there. Bricks can kill a Zombies with his hands, so he will be a great ally for Lizzy if push comes to shove.
- We are going to see a Burt rescue soon, and he is going to kick some ass and help Victor and Saul get what they were needing.
- A Burt and Bricks team up??? Muscle meats Steal...

Do you think the baby will be born in the colony or the the military base? I would put money on that the baby being born will be how this season will end.

Will CJ help or hinder! SO MANY COOL THINGS. I still do not like Scratch. I think Angles family had something to do with her rape.

[Z Sniper]

Ive loved Victor in this episode

AWWW CHUCKS!!! *sniff*

[Tielurrdee]

Another thought about bricks. It seems he's not fully in charge of feeding Burt but with the keys he had to open the door in the hospital he's most likely got all access in the colony. Think he's...

[HardKor]

she's mooning you Nik LOL. Anyways, did anybody else get the feeling the Bricks is starting to fall for Lizzy. I have a feeling that Bricks is a good guy deep down. ( I think this came up before) And if push comes to shove,that he would take anybody out even if it's Scratch. That he will more likely help Lizzy and Burt escape in the end. Or am i reading too much in to the relationship of protector and protected. And what happen to the Doctor? he pissed off Scratch. Being the only doctor left I don't think you want to off him by any means.
Yeah I'm with you. Bricks is totally giving off a vibe that he's falling for Lizzie, and Lizzie is giving off a bit of a vibe that she might feel something for him too. That part where she talked about wearing his shirts made me sit up a bit. I know it's probably true that it's the only thing she can find to fit, but I just felt like there was more to it. We could have some complicated love triangles (rectangle?) developing if/when Saul/Victor/CJ finally find Lizzie and Bricks.

[Cabbage Patch]

The Colony is short of water? Should have never gotten on the wrong side of Pete!

[Kram]

Also, just putting it out there- Scratch should kill Pegs and her and Michael should get together. Michael seems like a guy who wont be bothered if his lover cant have children...

I'm pretty sure that Michael would not be too enthusiastic about this idea. I don't think Scratch would be either.

I'm going to go on record and say that I don't think Angel/his father/a close relative was Scratch's older cousin. Based on the three-circle image on the ring, I'm thinking that "The Family" is actually composed of three largely separate "blood families". They are connected somehow -- perhaps through inter-marriage, and/or by some long-ago oath (the ring is old). I'm guessing that there are three surnames represented in The Family. I think we've met members of each -- Durai from one, Latch and Scratch from another, and Angel from the third. My gut feeling is that Scratch's older cousin would have been from her own third of The Family.

[GeneTwo]

It is possible that the Mallers could listen in to the folks at Dunbar Tower. Well, not really because of the range of the police radios isn't that far. The DT folks will probably be caught if they use police radios near the Colony.

I was listening to Chapter 21 part 2, where Tardust mentioned that he and Bricks were in a police station. If they had enough police radios couldn't they monitor enough frequencies like how they did with the CB radios?

[Cabbage Patch]

Interesting parallel story telling in the two parts of this story. Notice how the description of the "Family Ring" included the detail of the three interlinked circles, with arrows pointing outward.
http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2004&d=1341296969

Versus the Fort Irwin/NTC Shoulder Patch, with its three arrows pointing inward, forming a triangle.
http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1980&d=1340065298

I can't help but think that this is another sign of future conflict between the two.

[Kram]

That is cool Cabbage Patch! Also, did you explain in another thread about how police radio signals would be encrypted?

[GeneTwo]

My thinking is, most survivors would take what they need. The DT folks would have 30 to 40 police radios if each person had one. The Mallers would take the normal radios to monitor for survivors, and I figure they would keep an ear open for anyone using police frequencies. Other than the zombies, the next greatest threat to prisoners is police.

[Solanine]

I am not referring to Nature versus Nurture as it's been proven it's not one or the other but both. A child that is born with perfectly working eyes that is shut in total darkness for the first few years of it's life is said to be blind thereafter. Scientists claim this is because the during the first crucial years of a new borns development the genes are trying to figure out which genes are useful in this world and which ones are not. If there is nothing to see, the genes that help with eye development will not form, or not form fully. If you compare another mammal such as a horse that walks and eats on it's first day of birth versus a human child, you can tell that the horse is born with most of it's functionality fully formed whereas a human being can't really do anything until it's about 3 or 4. So the horse is being programmed during Utero and is mostly genetically developed at birth. A human being is genetically programmed during Utero and post Utero. So I'm not saying you can discount Nature or Nurture, but you have to take both into account. PM me if you'd like some links to check out.

I think what your refering to is epigenetics? Your DNA remains pretty much the same except for any mutations caused by incorrect replication. What changes are the genes turned on and off by external factors. How ever as far as her personality is concerned Phenotypic variables have a much larger impact than Genotypical variables. I think living in a crime family and being raped counts as a major enviromental stimulus.

[Solanine]

Oh and am I the opnly one who believes it could have been the doctor who was shot, Scratch did say something to the woman doing Lizzy's scan about not wanting to end up like the doctor who knew how to use the machine.

[yarri]

Yeah I'm with you. Bricks is totally giving off a vibe that he's falling for Lizzie, and Lizzie is giving off a bit of a vibe that she might feel something for him too. That part where she talked about wearing his shirts made me sit up a bit. I know it's probably true that it's the only thing she can find to fit, but I just felt like there was more to it. We could have some complicated love triangles (rectangle?) developing if/when Saul/Victor/CJ finally find Lizzie and Bricks.

He might be "feeling" something for her but Lizzie primary emotion is fear. I do not feel her love for Saul or his for her is so shallow it would change.

[PuddleWhite]

I dont see that there's any proof or need for the cousin to be in the here and now. Its not Durai, evidenced by the fact that Durai isn't dead. It may be Angel's father, i guess, if you fiddle with the timings enough. The point is, the cousin is dead, Angel is dead, and its all a part of the backstory, not the survival story.

[VEE]

Here's a thing. I think a lot of the 'meatless' talk etc is based on a change of listening routine. The difference between having 30 or so hours sat waiting to be listened to whenever one wants and then suddenly stopping and having to wait a week, sometimes two, for twenty more minutes’ results in the expectation of what will be in those 20 minutes being greater, we can, effectively, go 4 weeks with no action at all, which is fine, but previously that 4 weeks might have been about an hour, until we all reach the point where we are caught up. I know that, for myself, the listening experience is more disjointed and I do want to have that option to just play the next episode straight after the last one. This is impossible of course, but the feeling persists. I’m quite looking forward to starting this season again and just listening all the way through as I process things much better that way.

I do get what people are saying though, episodes taken in isolation can appear to not have much in them, and let’s not forget that not everybody dissects and analyses each episode, they just listen, and in the last episode the two key points were finding a broken phone and a pregnant woman, both things that we knew from previous episodes, and we had to wait 2 weeks for that. Now I have no criticism of this at all, and this thread is itself proof of how meaty this episode really was, but other people won’t see it that way, and I can see why. When listened to from start to finish it will be seamless and paced and timed beautifully, but the release schedule will always give a false impression of how the story is developing I think.

In short, don’t get annoyed about it I guess, there’s no point, it’s just the way things are.

[GeneTwo]

The Colony is short of water? Should have never gotten on the wrong side of Pete!

I know. Scratch should have kidnapped CJ instead of Lizzy. She probably would have go the water running and had the farm all set up. And she probably would have had it running with one Aussie slave (Futurama reference :rolleyes: ) doing all the work.

[Nate Eeez]

Here's a thing. I think a lot of the 'meatless' talk etc is based on a change of listening routine. The difference between having 30 or so hours sat waiting to be listened to whenever one wants and then suddenly stopping and having to wait a week, sometimes two, for twenty more minutes’ results in the expectation of what will be in those 20 minutes being greater, we can, effectively, go 4 weeks with no action at all, which is fine, but previously that 4 weeks might have been about an hour, until we all reach the point where we are caught up. I know that, for myself, the listening experience is more disjointed and I do want to have that option to just play the next episode straight after the last one. This is impossible of course, but the feeling persists. I’m quite looking forward to starting this season again and just listening all the way through as I process things much better that way.

I do get what people are saying though, episodes taken in isolation can appear to not have much in them, and let’s not forget that not everybody dissects and analyses each episode, they just listen, and in the last episode the two key points were finding a broken phone and a pregnant woman, both things that we knew from previous episodes, and we had to wait 2 weeks for that. Now I have no criticism of this at all, and this thread is itself proof of how meaty this episode really was, but other people won’t see it that way, and I can see why. When listened to from start to finish it will be seamless and paced and timed beautifully, but the release schedule will always give a false impression of how the story is developing I think.

In short, don’t get annoyed about it I guess, there’s no point, it’s just the way things are.

We have gotten so used to being able to watch full seasons on DVD or Netflix that we've become spoiled. We want action, knowledge and the ability to play the next episode. When we can't? Frustration! Anger! Tossing out blame! Demanding that our needs be met. Like a five year old addicted to crack. Simile.

Chill out. Relax. All in good time.

I think Lizzie should ask Scratch to be her son's protector. That'll complicate matters. I'd love to hear Scratch's reaction to that. I think she would seriously consider it. Then when Saul busts Lizzie free, we'll see Scratch get really pissed.

[yarri]

We have gotten so used to being able to watch full seasons on DVD or Netflix that we've become spoiled. We want action, knowledge and the ability to play the next episode. When we can't? Frustration! Anger! Tossing out blame! Demanding that our needs be met. Like a five year old addicted to crack. Simile.

Chill out. Relax. All in good time.

I think Lizzie should ask Scratch to be her son's protector. That'll complicate matters. I'd love to hear Scratch's reaction to that. I think she would seriously consider it. Then when Saul busts Lizzie free, we'll see Scratch get really pissed.


I wonder if Lizzie will name the baby John

[Nate Eeez]

Well, we know she won't name him Henry.

[reaper239]

Well, we know she won't name him Henry.

you never know, she had a real moment with scratch. if that keeps up, she may come down with some twist on stockholm syndrome.

[yarri]

you never know, she had a real moment with scratch. if that keeps up, she may come down with some twist on stockholm syndrome.

Do you really think a dr of psychology would succumb to Stockholm syndrome? I think Lizzie is tougher then that. I heard fear in her voice not empathy for scratch . Lizzie had proven to be a very smart , capable , bad ass on multiple occasions.

[Nate Eeez]

I think anybody can succumb to Stockholm Syndrome. You do what you have to to survive. Even someone schooled in psychology can start to identify with her captors. Besides, Lizzie never really used her training except during her internships. But trained as a therapist she can empathize with her clients. Even those who commit heinous crimes. You're trained not to judge. Can be difficult at times, but that's where the empathy comes in.

[wh33t]

I think what your refering to is epigenetics? Your DNA remains pretty much the same except for any mutations caused by incorrect replication. What changes are the genes turned on and off by external factors. How ever as far as her personality is concerned Phenotypic variables have a much larger impact than Genotypical variables. I think living in a crime family and being raped counts as a major enviromental stimulus.

Yes I have heard Gabor Mate speak of Epigenetics. I would presume the Epigenetic effects occur after birth. But while genes are getting formed and programmed in Utero the mothers Environmental stimulus is also wiring information into the fetus. So the environment plays a role as soon as there is an Environment. The mothers stress levels, sugar levels, fat levels, and all kinds of other things affect the fetus' development. It's pretty amazing how much we know about behaviour and where criminal behaviour and addiction is derived.

To bring this chat back to Scratch, it seems rather obvious that her being tough and cruel affords her respect (or maybe just fear) from those around her. Either way, it's become a mode of survival for her, which is common for criminals. There are times where I see Scratch as this incredibly beautiful expression of feminine power, it's terrifying, but somehow beautiful at the same time.

[yarri]

I think anybody can succumb to Stockholm Syndrome. You do what you have to to survive. Even someone schooled in psychology can start to identify with her captors. Besides, Lizzie never really used her training except during her internships. But trained as a therapist she can empathize with her clients. Even those who commit heinous crimes. You're trained not to judge. Can be difficult at times, but that's where the empathy comes in.
Point well made thank you :)

[Nate Eeez]

To bring this chat back to Scratch, it seems rather obvious that her being tough and cruel affords her respect (or maybe just fear) from those around her. Either way, it's become a mode of survival for her, which is common for criminals. There are times where I see Scratch as this incredibly beautiful expression of feminine power, it's terrifying, but somehow beautiful at the same time.

I think Scratch has some humanity left inside her. Perhaps, more than we want to give her credit for. A beautiful person who's had to live/grow up in a very difficult environment. Fear = respect. And her gender being a huge disadvantage against her, she's had to be twice as mean. I've always had a weak spot for the bad guys/gals showing their human side. I root for that side to win. They can still have their moments of jerkiness, but I want them to be good people in the end. Even if it kills them.

That said, I do not hold out hope that the zombies realize they shouldn't eat other people. I say shoot 'em in the head.

[wh33t]

I think Scratch has some humanity left inside her. Perhaps, more than we want to give her credit for. A beautiful person who's had to live/grow up in a very difficult environment. Fear = respect. And her gender being a huge disadvantage against her, she's had to be twice as mean. I've always had a weak spot for the bad guys/gals showing their human side. I root for that side to win. They can still have their moments of jerkiness, but I want them to be good people in the end. Even if it kills them.

That said, I do not hold out hope that the zombies realize they shouldn't eat other people. I say shoot 'em in the head.

Aye. Scratch is my favourite female villain. But I admit I can't think of too many. Can you name some?

[Nate Eeez]

Megamind! Though, not a female villain.

[Nate Eeez]

Faith from Buffy the Vampire Slayer series.

[IamPaul]

My question is, what is Durai so urgent about? I figured it was given that he is not interested in Ft. Irwin. Great episode. I was waiting for a 'Lizzy having twins' drop. I wish i would have watched Family Ties to get the hint. Did anyone figure it out? All I know of the show is, Michael J. Fox is a republican son of hippie parents.

[blue rage]

once again my procrastination has led to spoiling my come back to the forum. I was all set to document my Kelani theory but i put it off then next thing I know they are reading his Journal and telling his story. (I had everything right except I thought Hannah was his girlfriend. Every single detail was the same as KC wrote it) Then I was going to come back to the forum and declare my love for scratch and her sexy misunderstood self. But Oh no KC cuts me off again and makes scratch a little more sympathetic.

Its my own damn fault for neglecting the forum I guess..... Well no more!

[awkwardalex]

I think anybody can succumb to Stockholm Syndrome. You do what you have to to survive. Even someone schooled in psychology can start to identify with her captors. Besides, Lizzie never really used her training except during her internships. But trained as a therapist she can empathize with her clients. Even those who commit heinous crimes. You're trained not to judge. Can be difficult at times, but that's where the empathy comes in.

I agree. I have been thinking what if she is putting on a charade. But five months of being held captive would be so exhausting, just being defiant would be tiring emotionally and physically. That would have to be part of why ANYONE could have Stockholm Syndrome, it would be to exhausting, even more so when you’re in a no way out situation. I doubt Lizzy has any idea where she is or how to get back, she is pregnant and "alone". She probably doesn’t even know that this is where Michael, Pegs, and Kelly went, and they would have never made it out without Victor.

Now on the flip side the only one who could handle this would be someone with military training. Burt would have had SERE training, that's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape training.
*just to be clear, I am not in the military my knowledge goes as far as watching Homeland on ShowTime and having a third cousin whose a Military Police Investigator*
SERE has been around since the Korean War, now Burt may be a little rusty but he HAS the training.
So I think that Lizzy may have Stockholm, and who can blame her (if there was any Maller I would trust it would be Bricks). But I think Burt may have some tricks up his sleeve.

[Witch_Doctor]

Oh and am I the opnly one who believes it could have been the doctor who was shot, Scratch did say something to the woman doing Lizzy's scan about not wanting to end up like the doctor who knew how to use the machine.

KC confirmed that it was Angel who was shot and killed.

[nikvoodoo]

KC confirmed that it was Angel who was shot and killed.

Not to mention, the doctor had lines after the shot was fired.

[Witch_Doctor]

I dont see that there's any proof or need for the cousin to be in the here and now. Its not Durai, evidenced by the fact that Durai isn't dead. It may be Angel's father, i guess, if you fiddle with the timings enough. The point is, the cousin is dead, Angel is dead, and its all a part of the backstory, not the survival story.

Just to be clear, she does not say that the cousin is dead. We can assume that it is LIKELY that the cousin is dead or turned. As a work of fiction, it is noteworthy that Scratch emphasizes that she has to live with a reminder everyday. This isn't necessarily evidence to support Durai being the cousin but evidence to suggest that, by way of innuendo, this could be one of many possibilities.
Sometimes a cigar is a cigar, sometimes ce n'est pas un pipe. 2006

[7oddisdead]

To re-iterate...

For all who talk of the saving of Lizzie and...burt. Burts rescue depends on the turning and sympathy of bricks. Aside from him, none of our crew know Burt lives...so while we may speculate of lizzies Stockholm syndrome...we had better hope she's pulling a bit of reverse psychology on him...and bricks is the one with Stockholm syndrome. Otherwise a rescue may be for a party of two. Not three

[Nedjema]

I think even if Lizzy has Stockholm syndrome, the second she finds about Burt and what they've been doing to him, it won't matter anymore. Similar for the second she lays eyes on Saul.

[Zombiephyllic]

My question is, what is Durai so urgent about?

I was wondering that too. The only reason I can see they still want to find anyone form the tower is to avenge Latch by killing Pegs. And Durai seems to want dispose of Burt and move on to "more important matters". I'm curious about what they're working on. I was surprised when they launched a pretty effective offensive on the Arena, so I've got to think they're planning something else. Is it zombie related or something different?

[wh33t]

I was wondering that too. The only reason I can see they still want to find anyone form the tower is to avenge Latch by killing Pegs. And Durai seems to want dispose of Burt and move on to "more important matters". I'm curious about what they're working on. I was surprised when they launched a pretty effective offensive on the Arena, so I've got to think they're planning something else. Is it zombie related or something different?

Right! I've been so caught up with other tid bits I completely forgot Durai's haste in the process. Hrm! I say it has something to do with tracking down INK. We've heard Scratch mention in regards to the little ones (when they were actually little) that "this is just the beginning, and Durai understands that"... The prisoners know a hell of a lot more than we give them credit for me thinks.

[VEE]

I was trying to put myself in Lizzies shoes earlier, just to see how I would feel in her situation. She has been with the colony/mallers now for longer than she was at the tower hasn’t she? They have provided her everything she needs in her current condition, she even says herself that she wouldn’t want to be out there in her present state. She has a bodyguard, not only to ensure that she behaves, but it also serves to protect her form others there. She has medical care, is fed, watered and doesn’t have to struggle at all.

I’m a parent, although a dad and not a mum, and I’m sure that her number one priority is the child inside her, regardless of who the father is, and I can’t see her heading off with a rescue party. Not when it puts her and her unborn child (or possibly baby by then) in so much risk. In the early months parents tend to treat their babies as though they are made of china and the slightest little bump could shatter them, a daring escape won’t factor in at all as she would be putting her child in danger.

Now circumstances could change so that an escape is the better option, which would mean that the child would have to be in imminent danger, by which I don’t mean, say, Scratch adopting the baby as her own, as the child would not be in danger in that circumstance (and though heartbreaking, I think a parent might allow it in the short term as long as the child was safe), so the child would have to be threatened before Lizzie would strap it on her back and go running off.

These are just thoughts of course but they make some sense to me and I get a feeling that Saul might be bitterly disappointed a little way down the line.

[Cabbage Patch]

I was trying to put myself in Lizzies shoes earlier, just to see how I would feel in her situation. She has been with the colony/mallers now for longer than she was at the tower hasn’t she? They have provided her everything she needs in her current condition, she even says herself that she wouldn’t want to be out there in her present state. She has a bodyguard, not only to ensure that she behaves, but it also serves to protect her form others there. She has medical care, is fed, watered and doesn’t have to struggle at all.

...I get a feeling that Saul might be bitterly disappointed a little way down the line.

That makes perfect sense, but I think there are two factors that could change those calculations.

First, there are tantalizing hints that all is not well in the Colony. Water is rationed and there is concern about the food supply, where previously supplies of both seemed good. The treatment of the locals appears to be brutal, including killing key people like the only doctor. Lizzy cannot want her son growing up in the Family to be Scratch's protege.

Second, Saul has Dunbar Apartments to offer as a refuge (we hope), which is safe, well supplied, and only lacks the Colony's medical facilities. And, unbeknownst to everyone, is the prospect of a trip to Boulder, with hospitals staffed by doctors.

[7oddisdead]

would it be out of the realm of reason for saul to somehow incite a riot within the colony? i mean, the primary reason the colony fell to the mallers was lack of ammo correct? surely Cj is sitting on a pretty good stockpile. matching rounds to weapons from memory could be a bit tricky but what the hell.... its just that as i sit here thinking about it just now..could we feasibly see dunbar full again? and how would CJ feel about such a thing..not sure she has that many blindfolds.

jeez, think of the irony of that...a bunch of prisoners...cooling a riot. in a town/prison-like fortress. thats just too good not to happen

[yarri]

That makes perfect sense, but I think there are two factors that could change those calculations.

First, there are tantalizing hints that all is not well in the Colony. Water is rationed and there is concern about the food supply, where previously supplies of both seemed good. The treatment of the locals appears to be brutal, including killing key people like the only doctor. Lizzy cannot want her son growing up in the Family to be Scratch's protege.

Second, Saul has Dunbar Apartments to offer as a refuge (we hope), which is safe, well supplied, and only lacks the Colony's medical facilities. And, unbeknownst to everyone, is the prospect of a trip to Boulder, with hospitals staffed by doctors.
This is an awesome post if I wasn't on mobile I'd rep you. I'd like to add women have been having babies for a million years without doctors and hospitals granted not always with positive outcomes with or without medical intervention. Having babies is dangerous period no matter the situation. But were I in a situation like this I'd take my chances and leave at first opportunity.

[IamPaul]

I like the idea of Durai being the cousin. It would explain why Scratch is so rebellious (behind his back) and why he seems to be the leader. He likes power, and he seems to like to hold dominance over Scratch. It is a power thing, which is why he would have raped Scratch once, then tried again after the abortion. As to the 'eye for an eye' thing the family has, I do not know who she would be talking about getting even with when it comes to Latch. I figured Angel may have been that, but she rushed out of the Doctors office so fast. I guess it'd be Pegs. Just when you think things may clear up a bit, Kc ties another knot into the story. I love it!

[Nedjema]

Saul has medical training, right? It could happen that Lizzy leaves the colony with Saul, but goes into labor and has the baby premature at dunbar before they can get to fort Irwin, and Saul has to deliver the baby since he is the only one with any medical training. Although, I think with how far along she is right now, that's very premature. They would have to get to fort Irwin immediately, what are the chances of a baby being born that early surviving?

[yarri]

Saul has medical training, right? It could happen that Lizzy leaves the colony with Saul, but goes into labor and has the baby premature at dunbar before they can get to fort Irwin, and Saul has to deliver the baby since he is the only one with any medical training. Although, I think with how far along she is right now, that's very premature. They would have to get to fort Irwin immediately, what are the chances of a baby being born that early surviving?
Slim to none

[Cabbage Patch]

Saul has medical training, right? It could happen that Lizzy leaves the colony with Saul, but goes into labor and has the baby premature at dunbar before they can get to fort Irwin, and Saul has to deliver the baby since he is the only one with any medical training. Although, I think with how far along she is right now, that's very premature. They would have to get to fort Irwin immediately, what are the chances of a baby being born that early surviving?

The Army Combat Lifesaver program doesn't have any sort of an obstetrics component. It's all about dealing with combat related injuries.

[cupcakezombie]

I like the idea of Durai being the cousin. It would explain why Scratch is so rebellious (behind his back) and why he seems to be the leader. He likes power, and he seems to like to hold dominance over Scratch. It is a power thing, which is why he would have raped Scratch once, then tried again after the abortion. As to the 'eye for an eye' thing the family has, I do not know who she would be talking about getting even with when it comes to Latch. I figured Angel may have been that, but she rushed out of the Doctors office so fast. I guess it'd be Pegs. Just when you think things may clear up a bit, Kc ties another knot into the story. I love it!

It is Pegs that she wants for revenge. After Pegs killed Latch, Scratch saw that it was Pegs holding the gun. Scratch has also said that she still has to kill Pegs even after the return of the body.

[cupcakezombie]

Just to be clear, she does not say that the cousin is dead. We can assume that it is LIKELY that the cousin is dead or turned. As a work of fiction, it is noteworthy that Scratch emphasizes that she has to live with a reminder everyday. This isn't necessarily evidence to support Durai being the cousin but evidence to suggest that, by way of innuendo, this could be one of many possibilities.
Sometimes a cigar is a cigar, sometimes ce n'est pas un pipe. 2006

The reminder that she has to live with every day is the scar. Because she scarred her cousin, she got scarred in return.

[Miss]

with a team of doctors and nurses trained for caring for premature babiesin a non "zombie" world? depends on HOW premature the baby is, the further away from the due week the baby is it drops more and more to and below 50% after "zombies", that early Id have to agree with yarri that anything early then 7-8 month the chances are virtually zero without a doctor properly trained and equipment

[Robzombie]

The way it played out to me in the full context of the dialogue was that it seemed like she was refering to an internal emotional "scar" left by having the abortion, thats just how it sounded to me when she says something like getting cut by the other families enforcer, but she already had a scar to remind her everyday.... She seems much more impacted by the baby boy and what family means than by any actual scar.

[Condor]

would it be out of the realm of reason for saul to somehow incite a riot within the colony? i mean, the primary reason the colony fell to the mallers was lack of ammo correct? surely Cj is sitting on a pretty good stockpile. matching rounds to weapons from memory could be a bit tricky but what the hell.... its just that as i sit here thinking about it just now..could we feasibly see dunbar full again? and how would CJ feel about such a thing..not sure she has that many blindfolds.

jeez, think of the irony of that...a bunch of prisoners...cooling a riot. in a town/prison-like fortress. thats just too good not to happen
Saul could "Call in" some zombies for an attack. We haven't seen many of them lately, so it's about time for a major attack.


The Colony is short of water? Should have never gotten on the wrong side of Pete!
:) No doubt

[Solanine]

Why is this question of who the father is coming up, she wasn't raped (and even if she was she was preggers before then) and surely Todd was too long ago. Saul is the father. The evidence at the furniture is what's persuading him otherwise as it looks pretty convincing to anyone who didn't know the whole story.

[Bullethead]

Still sifting through all the pages of discussion but I have to say...

If Lizzy has some sort of relationship with bricks, I mean I'm sorry but that would have to prove that this girl has got some attachment issues. Todd dies and then shes interested in Saul after what a week? Saul is no longer accessible due to her being kidnapped in a way and now she has an interest in Bricks.

Granted when a womans pregnant I'm sure emotions are a little out of flux and its even easier to attach to someone.

[Robzombie]

This whole thing with Lizzie and Bricks is rediculous. There is no romantic relationship there what so ever. They are cordial and becoming friends since Bricks was assigned as her keeper/minder/protector. Really it's as simple as that and nothing more, please. As her protector she has entrusted him with her and her babies safety as well as simply being the person she's become most close with as he's spent the most time with her. This was obvious as she seemed taken aback and maybe a bit scared as her voice quavered when Bricks yelled at her for probably the first time about not questioneing him anymore about Scratch. As her minder he's ending up going through the pregnancy with her, that will bring people closer together, doesn't mean they are "doing it".

[Bullethead]

I can understand your frustration if you feel strongly that there is no possible way the two are romantically involved. I was the same way with everyone thinking the Colony can listen in on CJ and Saul's encrypted conversations.

However, there is a good bit of evidence to suggest that the two are more than just prisoner and watcher. They stand quickly at attention when Scratch comes in, almost as if you walk in on two teenagers making out. She's wearing Bricks' clothing and thinking nothing of it. Kind of a morning after move. She speaks to him as if they know each other.

As for her quivering when Bricks yells at her, thats how Lizzy has always been. Very headstrong and assertive but does not handle raised voices well. Michael got the same reaction when ever he yelled about something.


Maybe the two aren't "doing it", maybe they are simply going through the pregnancy together. But I am positive there is something that the two feel for each other. Perhaps Bricks is a nice enough guy not to do anything to her until the child is born. I mean at some point you have to think of who is going to raise the baby.


Also I just want to ask, was Tardust a member of the Family? I am not saying he is Scratch's assailant but she did walk in on him trying to rape Lizzy early on in the series. Someone with more a mind of stringing things together than me may want to go back and listen to the chapter where Scratch stops the rape of Lizzie and how she scolds Tardust. There may be something there.

[yarri]

I can understand your frustration if you feel strongly that there is no possible way the two are romantically involved. I was the same way with everyone thinking the Colony can listen in on CJ and Saul's encrypted conversations.

However, there is a good bit of evidence to suggest that the two are more than just prisoner and watcher. They stand quickly at attention when Scratch comes in, almost as if you walk in on two teenagers making out. She's wearing Bricks' clothing and thinking nothing of it. Kind of a morning after move. She speaks to him as if they know each other.

As for her quivering when Bricks yells at her, thats how Lizzy has always been. Very headstrong and assertive but does not handle raised voices well. Michael got the same reaction when ever he yelled about something.


Maybe the two aren't "doing it", maybe they are simply going through the pregnancy together. But I am positive there is something that the two feel for each other. Perhaps Bricks is a nice enough guy not to do anything to her until the child is born. I mean at some point you have to think of who is going to raise the baby.


Also I just want to ask, was Tardust a member of the Family? I am not saying he is Scratch's assailant but she did walk in on him trying to rape Lizzy early on in the series. Someone with more a mind of stringing things together than me may want to go back and listen to the chapter where Scratch stops the rape of Lizzie and how she scolds Tardust. There may be something there.

Or both stand out of fear of Scratch. The clothes Issues maybe are just that she's to big to be comfortable in what she had a to big shirt is better then a preggy belly and breasts hanging out. I'd call it an act of kindness of a decent man rather then a dirty minded man hoping to take advantage of a helpless frighten woman

[Bullethead]

I definitely was not implying Bricks being a Dirty man looking to score. It is possible for nice guys to get laid, even in Z-world :).

But yes for every piece of evidence to suggest one thing, the same evidence can be used to refute it. That is the beauty of KC's writing.

[Robzombie]

Exactly...I think its way more akin to a big brother relationship.

[yarri]

Exactly...I think its way more akin to a big brother relationship.

I agree

[yarri]

I definitely was not implying Bricks being a Dirty man looking to score. It is possible for nice guys to get laid, even in Z-world :).

But yes for every piece of evidence to suggest one thing, the same evidence can be used to refute it. That is the beauty of KC's writing.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Solanine]

I agree with the rest of you guys, Lizzy-Bricks is definitely platonic.

[Zombiphobe]

One thing that stands out to me is this whole eye-for-an-eye retribution requirement within the Families. Scratch scarred her cousin and was scarred in return for her actions against a member of the Families. Scratch states that had she killed her cousin, she would have also been killed. Pegs shoots Latch and so Scratch needs to kill Pegs in retaliation.

Now, Scratch retrieved Angel from the remains of the Tower and got him medical attention. Then, during her interrogation, she shoots him when he doesn't give her the information she wants.

So where is the retaliation for killing Angel, a member of the Families?

I know he got out of that lifestyle, and joined the military, but it doesn't seem like the Family is something you can simply walk away from; once you're in, you're in for life.
The doctor did say he basically died from his injuries during the tower collapse, and his body just hadn't caught up. But the shooting did not seem like a mercy kill. It seemed like an emotional response from Scratch when she did not get the information that she wanted.
Could Angel have been killed for his involvment in the attack on the tower that led to Latch getting shot? But Scratch seems to blame that on Pegs and Pegs alone.
Is it that the Mallers are so short handed that Durai cannot afford to lose his number 2? But how much of Durai's confidence in Scratch been shaken? She's insubordinate, disobeys orders, and does her own thing. Can he really trust her to be his number 2?

[nikvoodoo]

The other bullet point I'd add to yours is this: If Angel was a member of another family but Durai and Scratch are members of the same one and there are no other families around anymore....who would be there to take retribution for Angel?

[IamPaul]

Now lets get all this straight. The retribution with in family seems to be verified here. Would that count for seperate families to do to eachother? Are there offshoots of one main family? What if the family of the family within the family towards the family within the family blood or friend family family family family family family family family family family family family family family family family family. Sorry guys. my family key on my keyboard got stuck.

[Nedjema]

Also I just want to ask, was Tardust a member of the Family? I am not saying he is Scratch's assailant but she did walk in on him trying to rape Lizzy early on in the series. Someone with more a mind of stringing things together than me may want to go back and listen to the chapter where Scratch stops the rape of Lizzie and how she scolds Tardust. There may be something there.

No, he wasn't. When they went to interrogate angel, tardus didn't know about the ring or the family and was asking scratch about it.

[Kc]

The Army Combat Lifesaver program doesn't have any sort of an obstetrics component. It's all about dealing with combat related injuries.

But we can start IV's ;) That training was so much fun. Except for the bruising afterwards... ouch.

[cupcakezombie]

The way it played out to me in the full context of the dialogue was that it seemed like she was refering to an internal emotional "scar" left by having the abortion, thats just how it sounded to me when she says something like getting cut by the other families enforcer, but she already had a scar to remind her everyday.... She seems much more impacted by the baby boy and what family means than by any actual scar.

I agree too, but it sounded to me like people were getting confused about the reminder every day and thinking it was Durai because he was the one who raped her. Now I am not saying it is not him, but in the first instance, the reminder every day would be the physical and emotion scars.

[wh33t]

You guys know that Episode in season 1 where Lizzy and Michael are watching the Tivo recording? Interestingly enough when the reporter is talking about our ol'pal Ink, the news reporter can distinctly be heard saying "the family" during the fast forwarded moments. dun dun dun "The" family or the family... It would be super cool if that news cast is a gift that just keeps on giving.

So my wild conspiratorial perspective here is that Ink might be in "the family"

[Robzombie]

You guys know that Episode in season 1 where Lizzy and Michael are watching the Tivo recording? Interestingly enough when the reporter is talking about our ol'pal Ink, the news reporter can distinctly be heard saying "the family" during the fast forwarded moments. dun dun dun "The" family or the family... It would be super cool if that news cast is a gift that just keeps on giving.

So my wild conspiratorial perspective here is that Ink might be in "the family"

Oh crap...thanks a lot...its already 2 in the morning and i now have to listen to that episode for the hundredth time just for those 2 words....i wont be able to sleep if i dont...

[Robzombie]

"...the family itself was devastated...". Chapter 2, part 3 of 3 around 20:50 the broadcast starts. Yup, nice catch wh33t. I think Mr Bill Roberts, A.K.A. Ink, was an enforcer for "the family". Is he Scratches rapist (i doubt it), or possibly the one that gave her the scar...????

[wh33t]

"...the family itself was devastated...". Chapter 2, part 3 of 3 around 20:50 the broadcast starts. Yup, nice catch wh33t. I think Mr Bill Roberts, A.K.A. Ink, was an enforcer for "the family". Is he Scratches rapist (i doubt it), or possibly the one that gave her the scar...????

You think so? Awesome. Glad that someone else is understanding where I'm going with this. It's so cool re-listening to the whole thing over from the beginning every time we learn of a new major plot development.

[VEE]

It was worth listening again just to hear Riley, she must miss me.

Would the NEWS refer to them as 'The Family'? Seems a bit off to me, but news reporting is stylistically different here, so maybe.

[Bullethead]

One thing that stands out to me is this whole eye-for-an-eye retribution requirement within the Families ...
So where is the retaliation for killing Angel, a member of the Families?


My only thought is that she may have tried to cover it up as 'He didn't survive his wounds'. Tardust and Bricks are going to go along with what ever she says happened to Angel. And we know something happened to the Doctor. Perhaps the doctor was going to tell Durai about Scratch and well lets say he did not quite make it.

Thus no retaliation will be coming for the murder of a Family member because to everyone besides those 4, he died of natural causes (mostly).



Would the NEWS refer to them as 'The Family'? Seems a bit off to me, but news reporting is stylistically different here, so maybe.

I am with you in that it would seem unprofessional for the News to use the phrase 'The Family'. However if it is common knowledge, say The Family members have been in and out of high profile court hearings etc. than everyone in the area would know the name after all.

More to the point I am just left with the question WHO THE HELL IS INK!?

[Zombiphobe]

The other bullet point I'd add to yours is this: If Angel was a member of another family but Durai and Scratch are members of the same one and there are no other families around anymore....who would be there to take retribution for Angel?

This seems plausible. But it depends on how the Families are structured. It could be three families closely connected through generations of intermarriage. Or it could be three distinct families where, despite their alliance through the rings, they maintain a lot of autonomy and rivalry. In the first scenario, I would imagine any high ranking member (such as Durai) would insist upon carrying out the required rules. But if it is more like the second scenario, it would make sense that a member of the offended family would have to make the demand for such a retaliation.


My only thought is that she may have tried to cover it up as 'He didn't survive his wounds'. Tardust and Bricks are going to go along with what ever she says happened to Angel. And we know something happened to the Doctor. Perhaps the doctor was going to tell Durai about Scratch and well lets say he did not quite make it.

Wasn't Tardust still recording when Angel got shot? I'm sure Durai would want to see the footage. If the tape went missing or cut off at the end, I think it would raise a lot of suspicion. Furthermore, Scratch just offed the only doctor in a colony of hundreds of people. This is not going to sit well with Durai; he should be questioning her motives.

[Stuv]

WOW! Great episode! Been a busy week with the holiday and all and I just got a chance to listen. Forgive me if this has been brought up already I tried to read the entire thread first but I may have missed this. I feel as if this look into Scratch’s background is a red herring. I think it is even possible that she created the story of the experience for Lizzie's benefit, I think Scratch wants the baby but not for emotional reasons or because she cares. I believe she is still focused on revenge for the death of her brother. Lizzie knows nothing of the Tower collapse survivors movements and based on her conversation with Bricks and Durai Burt has been less than forthcoming (Go Burt!:yay:) She knows she could use Lizzie and the baby to draw out the Tower collapse survivors. Presuming she doesn’t know about Irwin, she would believe that the survivor are still together somewhere without any other support.

[IamPaul]

You guys know that Episode in season 1 where Lizzy and Michael are watching the Tivo recording? Interestingly enough when the reporter is talking about our ol'pal Ink, the news reporter can distinctly be heard saying "the family" during the fast forwarded moments. dun dun dun "The" family or the family... It would be super cool if that news cast is a gift that just keeps on giving.

So my wild conspiratorial perspective here is that Ink might be in "the family"


I am going to edit myself here: Holy F************************************************* ***********ck! I never once thought of that, and I just recently re listened to season 1 and 2. This can't be a coincidence. That could explain the tattoo's as well.

[Nedjema]

WOW! Great episode! Been a busy week with the holiday and all and I just got a chance to listen. Forgive me if this has been brought up already I tried to read the entire thread first but I may have missed this. I feel as if this look into Scratch’s background is a red herring. I think it is even possible that she created the story of the experience for Lizzie's benefit, I think Scratch wants the baby but not for emotional reasons or because she cares. I believe she is still focused on revenge for the death of her brother. Lizzie knows nothing of the Tower collapse survivors movements and based on her conversation with Bricks and Durai Burt has been less than forthcoming (Go Burt!:yay:) She knows she could use Lizzie and the baby to draw out the Tower collapse survivors. Presuming she doesn’t know about Irwin, she would believe that the survivor are still together somewhere without any other support.


I think everything she said about her past is true. In scratch's eyes, revealing that sort of information about herself, even of it was a lie, would make her seem weak, and scratch would NOT want to make herself seem weak in any way. Did you hear how mad she was at bricks when she thought he overheard her? I think that was real emotion.

[Eviebae]

As a point of clarification. A person's DNA/genes/genetic code is essentially fixed from conception; it is NOT an open book waiting to be formed from some environmental stimilus. What I think you are bringing up is the whole debate over Nature vs. Nurture. Are someone's actions and behaviour the result of some genetic predisposition from birth or are they a result of their upbringing and environment? Following your dog analogy, could a dog be overly agressive because they belong to a certain breed with a genetic predisposition toward agresssion or was it raised in such a way that resulted in this agressive behavior? Both factors can influence who we are and how we behave, but they are not the same thing.

While I agree that the environment that Scratch grew up in and the events in her past most definitely had a hand in the person she has become, her environment growing up did not alter her on a genetic level.

*ahem*
::stands up behind lectern::
Epigenetics research (http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2010/05/04/epigenetics-and-ptsd-nature-and-nuture-working-in-conjunction-to-give-you-flashbacks/) is showing that environment can cause change on a chromosomal level--specifically by causing the suppression or expression of certain genes. And, these genetic changes can be passed on to children.

[wh33t]

*ahem*
::stands up behind lectern::
Epigenetics research (http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2010/05/04/epigenetics-and-ptsd-nature-and-nuture-working-in-conjunction-to-give-you-flashbacks/) is showing that environment can cause change on a chromosomal level--specifically by causing the suppression or expression of certain genes. And, these genetic changes can be passed on to children.

Awesome. Thanks for chiming that in. Now we can almost be certain Scratch is a psychopath on the genetic level ;) haha.

[Zombiphobe]

The very definition of epigenics, is that the changes do not alter the DNA sequence or the genes themselves.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/epigenetic

[Eviebae]

Everyone else may wanna skip this one...unless you don't...cuz I'm going to geek the &*$# out...


The very definition of epigenics, is that the changes do not alter the DNA sequence or the genes themselves.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/epigenetic

Yes, very true. I never meant to say they do--and frankly think I didn't. I said they cause change at the LEVEL of the chromosome by changing HOW the genes are expressed. Because of evolution; DNA is sort of messy string code and part of how genes are expressed are these para-chromosomal chemicals/proteins that can turn the expression of genes (and thus the traits they express) on and off. In Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, for example, the thinking is constant stress results in changes to chromosomal expression that result in some of the long term behaviors associated (besides and beyond having a predisposition) --like hypervigilance. It's like how in a house some lights are on and some are off; but they are all there being lights and if you don't want to use a light long term you can unscrew the lightbulb.

[wh33t]

Everyone else may wanna skip this one...unless you don't...cuz I'm going to geek the &*$# out...



Yes, very true. I never meant to say they do--and frankly think I didn't. I said they cause change at the LEVEL of the chromosome by changing HOW the genes are expressed. Because of evolution; DNA is sort of messy string code and part of how genes are expressed are these para-chromosomal chemicals/proteins that can turn the expression of genes (and thus the traits they express) on and off. In Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, for example, the thinking is constant stress results in changes to chromosomal expression that result in some of the long term behaviors associated (besides and beyond having a predisposition) --like hypervigilance. It's like how in a house some lights are on and some are off; but they are all there being lights and if you don't want to use a light long term you can unscrew the lightbulb.

That's a great way to explain it!

[Cunning Plan]

good solid episode, but like previous posters Damn you for giving scratch a human side :P.
Anyway, it was a good episode and it sets everything up nicely for part two. Can't Wait!

[Witch_Doctor]

:cool:
Now lets get all this straight. ..... friend family family family family family family family family family family family family family family family family family. Sorry guys. my family key on my keyboard got stuck.

Chuckle

[GeneTwo]

good solid episode, but like previous posters Damn you for giving scratch a human side :P.
Anyway, it was a good episode and it sets everything up nicely for part two. Can't Wait!

Yea, I think I heard Osiris' Scratch-gasim clear across California.

[Zombiphobe]

Everyone else may wanna skip this one...unless you don't...cuz I'm going to geek the &*$# out...



Yes, very true. I never meant to say they do--and frankly think I didn't. I said they cause change at the LEVEL of the chromosome by changing HOW the genes are expressed. Because of evolution; DNA is sort of messy string code and part of how genes are expressed are these para-chromosomal chemicals/proteins that can turn the expression of genes (and thus the traits they express) on and off. In Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, for example, the thinking is constant stress results in changes to chromosomal expression that result in some of the long term behaviors associated (besides and beyond having a predisposition) --like hypervigilance. It's like how in a house some lights are on and some are off; but they are all there being lights and if you don't want to use a light long term you can unscrew the lightbulb.

I am glad you agree that epigenetics do not alter the DNA in response to environmental stimuli. This is the very point I've been trying to clarify. It was your previous characterization of these epigenetic effects as "genetic changes" that prompted my clarification. A genetic change would be at the LEVEL of the gene and constitute a change in the actual DNA. Epigenetics, however, work "on top of genetics", regulating how these DNA-coded regions are accessed and expressed without altering the DNA sequence or the genes themselves.

[wh33t]

I thought I had previously stated this before but I can't seem to find a post where I mention it and seeing how this information is more related to this part rather than part 2 I'll post it here. To add my to "Ink" is part of "The Family" in some form or another I want to bring everyone back to Chapter... 23 maybe? I can't remember the exact chapter but they are discussing the "little one" (that is actually still little at the time) during the Mallers convoy ambush (en route to destroy the Arena). During this scene Scratch says to Tardust (or someone else) that "thing (in reference to the Little one) is just the beginning, and Durai understands that". Could this be more subtle foreshadowing and evidence that Ink is in the family and that Durai understands a heck of a lot more about Ink then we do?

[Eviebae]

I am glad you agree that epigenetics do not alter the DNA in response to environmental stimuli. This is the very point I've been trying to clarify. It was your previous characterization of these epigenetic effects as "genetic changes" that prompted my clarification. A genetic change would be at the LEVEL of the gene and constitute a change in the actual DNA. Epigenetics, however, work "on top of genetics", regulating how these DNA-coded regions are accessed and expressed without altering the DNA sequence or the genes themselves.

First of all, since we are talking about science, we have to begin all sentences with "so". Have you noticed the diffusion of the "so" sentence on NPR? "So it turns out that..." It's shorthand for "step back plebe; I has the brains and the training."

So, my point--and what I took was wh33t's--was that environment DOES impact the expression of genes. I think we may have misunderstood each other.

Scratches actions have made sense from the beginning--in more than black and white bad guy terms. It is awesome that--the words were written in such a way and the expression/acting was such that I was able to read her character. For instance I thought I detected back in February (http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?1326-Chapter-20-Part-3-Discussion&p=9734#post9734) that although she said she didn't care if Lizzy was raped; she really did. That's excellence in action. I could listen to her change of voice and attitude toward Lizzy when she saw she was "sick" and was able to guess she'd been a Mommy (http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?3076-Scratch-is-a-Mommy&p=37035#post37035) (almost).

[GingerNacre]

Faith from Buffy the Vampire Slayer series.

Faith was misunderstood. I stand by this. She was a teenager. They are ALL VILLAINS at that age.

[GingerNacre]

Ok. So I'm just gonna say it: I don't care how much sighing, non-menacing, flash-back pensive speech Scratch gives me. I simply do not trust her. I dig her character. I like that she is written damaged and angry. But I think she is up to something. I (stating "I" as in not fact but personal opinion) think she wants the baby for herself OR she plans on using it (and Lizzie) to find out where the group is. And I soooo totally want a show down with Saul. Im not missing Pegs at all. If Scratch took her on, it would be over too fast. Give Scratch a worthy advisary in Saul (and his homey Victor by his side!). It would be good. Also, anything with Saul and Victor as the main storyline to follow is good with me! Now I need to listen to the next 2 parts of Chapter 31.

[Penguine]

Saul and Victor could do a spin off.. We're Alive: The story of Saul and Victor. LOL. Best duo in the series. Great interactions, great story telling.