If you could rebuild?

[HorrorHiro]

If some sort of civilization collapsing scenario was to happen (zombies of otherwise) what would you and whatever group of people your with try to rebuild of construct in place of the former society(s) that we knew?

[yoyoyoyo15]

I'm not sure what you are asking... Are u asking like what buildings we would repair?... I'm not sure what u mean

[HorrorHiro]

I'm not sure what you are asking... Are u asking like what buildings we would repair?... I'm not sure what u mean

Like if you had the oppurtunity to build a new civilization if you will.

[yoyoyoyo15]

Are you asking where or what type of government?

[Osiris]

This is getting needlessly complex. All right, look... I'd re-build a Taco Bell franchise and start making money which I would then use to open a chain of Taco Bells.

The weak shall inherit the earth by way of all the strong people died fighting, and they will need to eat, and it shall be tacos. So sayeth the Lord Cheesus Crust.

[Osiris]

P.S. To clarify, it would be a society based on fast food. So it would not be very far removed from America currently.

[HorrorHiro]

Are you asking where or what type of government?
Just what kind of society you would try to create for yourselves and those who come after you...if governments are involved in that for you, then sure.

[HorrorHiro]

Maybe an example would help...

I, being an Anarchist, would try (hopefully with the assistance of whatever group I would be in) to establish a commune and or a number of various united communes (and for those of you who don't know what a commune is, a commune is an intentional community of people that share things like resources, property, like-mindedness etc.) Internally it would be non-hierarchical non-authoritarian for both working and just generally living, TRUE equality.

There wouldn't be a government (because governing outside of oneself is slavery, regardless of how peaceful it is.) Everyone would put in what they get out of the commune(s) There would be TRULY democratically elected representatives that would NOT have any sort of power of anyone else within the commune(s), they would simply represent the people of the commune to whatever other groups of humans we might run into.

Capitalism would not exist within the commune(S)

Obviously there would be rules, hopefully unwritten rules. Trans-cultural rules such as NO rape NO murder and simple things of that nature. If there was to be a need for written rules, they would be suggested by one or more people within the commune, and others would choose what rules were OK and which were not.

Externally there would be defensive armed forces organized like armies (defense forces especially) usually are. There would be tacticians, strategists, battle planners and the like.

[Eviebae]

If some sort of civilization collapsing scenario was to happen (zombies of otherwise) what would you and whatever group of people your with try to rebuild of construct in place of the former society(s) that we knew?

My pie in the sky is a Meritocracy--where the best get ahead at what they're best at.

Life would be so different. For instance, WAY more houses than people and most of the ex-owners will be long gone. Lots of land. You'd have people trying to set up fiefdoms and make land grabs.

I'd lean toward socialist/capitalist--in obligations as well as benefits. Each one balances the other. I like the idea where no one starves--all get 3 meals a day--but the basic food is like human chow--to get more than that you have to earn. I mean, you could look at a public highway system or public education as being sort of socialist. Education for everyone that wants it; but, more emphasis on life skills--I mean if everyone can own a gun, everyone should know how to use and store one.

The main thing would be checking those of us with greater drives that are useful, but can be destructive if taken to the extreme. Like people who are driven to create ways to acquire wealth. It's only bad to the extent their pursuit weakens the country and government that allows them to make that money.

[Eviebae]

Maybe an example would help...

I, being an Anarchist, would try (hopefully with the assistance of whatever group I would be in) to establish a commune and or a number of various united communes (and for those of you who don't know what a commune is, a commune is an intentional community of people that share things like resources, property, like-mindedness etc.) Internally it would be non-hierarchical non-authoritarian for both working and just generally living, TRUE equality.

There wouldn't be a government (because governing outside of oneself is slavery, regardless of how peaceful it is.) Everyone would put in what they get out of the commune(s) There would be TRULY democratically elected representatives that would NOT have any sort of power of anyone else within the commune(s), they would simply represent the people of the commune to whatever other groups of humans we might run into.

Capitalism would not exist within the commune(S)

Obviously there would be rules, hopefully unwritten rules. Trans-cultural rules such as NO rape NO murder and simple things of that nature. If there was to be a need for written rules, they would be suggested by one or more people within the commune, and others would choose what rules were OK and which were not.

Externally there would be defensive armed forces organized like armies (defense forces especially) usually are. There would be tacticians, strategists, battle planners and the like.

I was in an anti-nuclear power plant movement trying to keep one out of Indiana (I swear, they look for fault lines on which to build them). They tried governing by consensus--that is everyone had to agree. The group was joined by a group that had their own political agenda and would simply shoot down anything that went against that agenda. The upshot was this little group became dictators; people became frustrated with the non-action and tended to quit. The problem with consensus is if you have any person or group of people who want their own way regardless, they tend to get it.

In your group, if someone--let's say a founding member--murdered someone else in a fit of rage or raped someone what would happen?


Okay, first, in saying who does and doesn't get to be in the commune people are governing and using laws.

[yarri]

The main thing would be checking those of us with greater drives that are useful, but can be destructive if taken to the extreme. Like people who are driven to create ways to acquire wealth. It's only bad to the extent their pursuit weakens the country and government that allows them to make that money.

For clarification do you mean checking someone as in slowing them down or stopping them or redirecting their drives to something useful for the community as a whole?

[Cabbage Patch]

Sounds like you all want to make utopian societies, of the variety I hereby dub "zombie-chow" (except for Osiris). Good luck with that!

My society is going to be highly militarized and devoted first to creating safe enclaves where humans can survive and rebuild. Then we're going to conduct a crusade to wipe out the zombies, reclaim the world, and take vengeance against whoever did this to us.

My society will look on the days per-zombie as a lost golden-age, and future generations will come to worship their ancestors and the heroes of the apocalypse. These will include Sir Michael the bold, Sir Angel the brave, Sir Burt the deadly, Lady Pegs the flighty, King Datu the resourceful, and especially Sir Vaul the binary (see Sniper Z's recent posts for explanation). But the highest praise will be reserved for the mighty KC. There is no God but God, and KC is his prophet.

[HorrorHiro]

I was in an anti-nuclear power plant movement trying to keep one out of Indiana (I swear, they look for fault lines on which to build them). They tried governing by consensus--that is everyone had to agree. The group was joined by a group that had their own political agenda and would simply shoot down anything that went against that agenda. The upshot was this little group became dictators; people became frustrated with the non-action and tended to quit. The problem with consensus is if you have any person or group of people who want their own way regardless, they tend to get it.

In your group, if someone--let's say a founding member--murdered someone else in a fit of rage or raped someone what would happen?


Okay, first, in saying who does and doesn't get to be in the commune people are governing and using laws.

Well people who would do things such as rape or murder would be...disposed of, anything from simply killing them to throwing them out into the dangerous post-apocalyptic wasteland. And in case you ask no there wouldn't be any designated executioner or anything of that nature, possibly trials (if there was a reason to believe that the accused person(s) didn't do it.)

A "founding memeber" wouldn't be any different from the newest member.

And as far as letting people into the commune(s) unless it was known that there were groups of people (or smart zombies I suppose) that would wish to infiltrate us such as the Mallers moles, there wouldn't be any restrictions to people being let in, obviously in a zombie scenario you would have to make sure that whoever wanted to get in wasn't bitten other than that the only requirement (if they plan on staying within the commune for the long run) should/would be that they realize the type of society that we have created is and will remain without any oppressive governing forces, hierarchical systems, and authoritarianism.

[HorrorHiro]

Sounds like you all want to make utopian societies, of the variety I hereby dub "zombie-chow" (except for Osiris). Good luck with that!

My society is going to be highly militarized and devoted first to creating safe enclaves where humans can survive and rebuild. Then we're going to conduct a crusade to wipe out the zombies, reclaim the world, and take vengeance against whoever did this to us.

My society will look on the days per-zombie as a lost golden-age, and future generations will come to worship their ancestors and the heroes of the apocalypse. These will include Sir Michael the bold, Sir Angel the brave, Sir Burt the deadly, Lady Pegs the flighty, King Datu the resourceful, and especially Sir Vaul the binary (see Sniper Z's recent posts for explanation). But the highest praise will be reserved for the mighty KC. There is no God but God, and KC is his prophet.

And how would this group go about relations with other groups? More specifically a group such as mine?

I haven't gone into detail about the external military aspect of it, but internally it is by no means trying to seem "utopian". True democracy, true equality, and true freedom.

[Cabbage Patch]

And how would this group go about relations with other groups? More specifically a group such as mine?

I haven't gone into detail about the external military aspect of it, but internally it is by no means trying to seem "utopian". True democracy, true equality, and true freedom.

Historically, utopian democratic experiments only work in times of peace and plenty, and then only for a time. From the original Plymouth Colony to the midwestern Farm Communes of the 19th Century they start well, but fall apart once human nature, once resource shortages were encounterd, or when there were outside threats to the community's safety. Human nature hasn't changed, and the We're Alive universe is going to be horrendously resource-constrained and fraught with external threats.

So, to answer your question, if my society was a neighbor of yours we'd be warily friendly while you last, and prepared to rescue survivors later.

[HorrorHiro]

Historically, utopian democratic experiments only work in times of peace and plenty, and then only for a time. From the original Plymouth Colony to the midwestern Farm Communes of the 19th Century they start well, but fall apart once human nature, once resource shortages were encounterd, or when there were outside threats to the community's safety. Human nature hasn't changed, and the We're Alive universe is going to be horrendously resource-constrained and fraught with external threats.

So, to answer your question, if my society was a neighbor of yours we'd be warily friendly while you last, and prepared to rescue survivors later.
I think you, like many people, are confusing human nature with (current and past) societal norms. And again you use the word "utopian", this is not a goal that Anarchists work toward.

[yarri]

Historically, utopian democratic experiments only work in times of peace and plenty, and then only for a time. From the original Plymouth Colony to the midwestern Farm Communes of the 19th Century they start well, but fall apart once human nature, once resource shortages were encounterd, or when there were outside threats to the community's safety. Human nature hasn't changed, and the We're Alive universe is going to be horrendously resource-constrained and fraught with external threats.

So, to answer your question, if my society was a neighbor of yours we'd be warily friendly while you last, and prepared to rescue survivors later.


I agree. Human nature sucks ass to be blunt. We are dirty, greedy, selfish shits. If I were to rebuild I would keep the communities very small only a few families and many of these communities spread far apart. Rules would be simple. To remain within the community and receive the benefits of the community you have to work to support the community. You steal from the community, harm a member of the community you would be cast out of the community. To return to it would bring instant death. (we put down rabid dogs mercifully why not rapists or murders cause we don't want that sort mixing in the gene pool ) We could have limited arrangements among other such communities for the exchange of goods and services and for young people to meet and join together to lessen the chance of inbreeding. (see highland clans) Once a year the smaller communities would gather together to meet and discuss issues arising or solve joint problems as trade and much needed social interaction

[HorrorHiro]

I agree. Human nature sucks ass to be blunt. We are dirty, greedy, selfish shits. If I were to rebuild I would keep the communities very small only a few families and many of these communities spread far apart. Rules would be simple. To remain within the community and receive the benefits of the community you have to work to support the community. You steal from the community, harm a member of the community you would be cast out of the community. To return to it would bring instant death. (we put down rabid dogs mercifully why not rapists or murders cause we don't want that sort mixing in the gene pool ) We could have limited arrangements among other such communities for the exchange of goods and services and for young people to meet and join together to lessen the chance of inbreeding. (see highland clans) Once a year the smaller communities would gather together to meet and discuss issues arising or solve joint problems as trade and much needed social interaction

Well that sounds rather primitivist, not to make that sound like a bad thing.

[yarri]

Well that sounds rather primitivist, not to make that sound like a bad thing.


It is.. I would enjoy a return to simpler ways. (I have an odd skill set as a nurse)

[HorrorHiro]

Freetown Christiania is an "anarchist commune" in Denmark that has been around since the 70's and is still around. There are many other examples of Anarchist communes throughout history, NONE of which fell because of "human nature" but fell because of the oppressive and repressive governing forces.

If you would like to know more about human nature in relation to Anarhcism (more specifically in Anarchist societies) I suggest clicking on the hyper link... (http://www.socialanarchism.org/mod/magazine/display/128/index.php)

[HorrorHiro]

It is.. I would enjoy a return to simpler ways. (I have an odd skill set as a nurse)

Living simpler would certainly mean living easier.

[yarri]

Living simpler would certainly mean living easier.

It wouldn't be easier in fact it would be much harder more rewarding and honest.

[HorrorHiro]

It wouldn't be easier in fact it would be much harder more rewarding and honest.

So you think a simpler living style would unify people?

[yarri]

yes and give them common goals but I would not have more then 3 maybe 4 families anymore then that and you have problems.

[HorrorHiro]

yes and give them common goals but I would not have more then 3 maybe 4 families anymore then that and you have problems.

Well what happens when the population increases?

[Osiris]

Serious answer: I would lean toward communism, without question.

[Cabbage Patch]

Serious answer: I would lean toward communism, without question.


Are we talking theoretical Communism (Marx) or actual, historic Communism (Lenin/Stalin/Mao/Castro/Kim)? The former sounds like a recipe for human extinction in the face of the zombie apocalypse, the later like a pretty good, if dismal, survival strategy.

[Osiris]

Don't hate.

P.S. not* the latter.

[HorrorHiro]

Are we talking theoretical Communism (Marx) or actual, historic Communism (Lenin/Stalin/Mao/Castro/Kim)? The former sounds like a recipe for human extinction in the face of the zombie apocalypse, the later like a pretty good, if dismal, survival strategy.

Marxism is far more than theoretical communism. And I would think that in a post-apocalyptic scenario I easily see Libertarian Communism emerging.

And why did you put Lenin in that list?

[HorrorHiro]

Don't hate.

P.S. the latter.


So you would try to be a dictator?

[Osiris]

Marxism is far more than theoretical communism. And I would think that in a post-apocalyptic scenario I easily see Libertarian Communism emerging.

And why did you put Lenin in that list?

Because he hates communists and arbitrarily lumps them all together. <333

[Osiris]

So you would try to be a dictator?

forgot the 'not'.

Post edited.

[Eviebae]

For clarification do you mean checking someone as in slowing them down or stopping them or redirecting their drives to something useful for the community as a whole?

Mostly the latter, and somewhat the former (as to what that would accomplish).

I dunno, humanity runs up against the same things again and again and science doesn't have a stellar record when it comes to benign tampering (think euthanasia, Hitler, Monsanto corn)

If you could change the human genome to make it better what would you do? Let's pretend it wouldn't result in any problems/weaknesses/disabilities. I was thinking about this yesterday and wondered if there was one thing that I could change about man, it would be to make all of us have more of a sense of common humanity. Then, I'd go for calm alertness.

[Osiris]

I would avoid genetic manipulation to 'make it better'. Nature always finds a way. Tampering is quite possibly what lead to the need to rebuild civilization in the first place.

[Eviebae]

I would avoid genetic manipulation to 'make it better'. Nature always finds a way. Tampering is quite possibly what lead to the need to rebuild civilization in the first place.


Well, we've been selectively breeding ourselves since the beginning.

[Osiris]

Well, we've been selectively breeding ourselves since the beginning.

There's 'selective' breeding and then there is genetic manipulation. They just aren't the same thing. One is choosing a mate based on genetic traits that you admire and want to see continued in the species with the hope that trait shines through in the offspring. The other removes chance from the equation. The two are mutually exclusive.

[HorrorHiro]

I'm not sure if I would if I had the option of changing human genetics for what I saw as the better. I probably would though.

[Cabbage Patch]

Marxism is far more than theoretical communism. And I would think that in a post-apocalyptic scenario I easily see Libertarian Communism emerging.

And why did you put Lenin in that list?

Lenin was no saint, and certainly not a utopian. Read his pamphlet "Left-Wing" Communism: An Infantile Disorder, which he wrote in 1920. It's the blueprint for the totalitarian Soviet state that Stalin perfected and that North Korea enjoys to this day.

[Osiris]

I'm not sure if I would if I had,I think I'm leaning towards would do it.

lolwat?

[Cabbage Patch]

If you could change the human genome to make it better what would you do? Let's pretend it wouldn't result in any problems/weaknesses/disabilities. I was thinking about this yesterday and wondered if there was one thing that I could change about man, it would be to make all of us have more of a sense of common humanity. Then, I'd go for calm alertness.

I'd vote for enhancing empathy. It's a lot harder to do things that hurt other people if you recognize their humanity and you try to understand things from their perspective. I blame lack of empathy for societal problems that range from rude behavior to murder. It's no coincidence that one of the first things you do when you train soldiers is teach them to objectify and dehumanize their enemies, in effect to stop feeling empathy for them.

[yarri]

Well what happens when the population increases?
Spread out further as there would be space again. With a lack of modern medicine the population growth would be much slower.

[HorrorHiro]

lolwat?

*Fixed

[HorrorHiro]

Lenin was no saint, and certainly not a utopian. Read his pamphlet "Left-Wing" Communism: An Infantile Disorder, which he wrote in 1920. It's the blueprint for the totalitarian Soviet state that Stalin perfected and that North Korea enjoys to this day.

Yeah, Lenin was no saint, but he shouldn't be compared to Stalin or the ruling family of North Korea. And Leninism (which is recognized as an aspect of Marxism) has helped to evolve other ideologies.

[Osiris]

Yeah, Lenin was no saint, but he shouldn't be compared to Stalin or the ruling family of North Korea. And Leninism (which is recognized as an aspect of Marxism) has helped to evolve other ideologies.

^this

[Cabbage Patch]

Yeah, Lenin was no saint, but he shouldn't be compared to Stalin or the ruling family of North Korea. And Leninism (which is recognized as an aspect of Marxism) has helped to evolve other ideologies.

Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree about Lenin.

[HorrorHiro]

Nothing wrong with disagreeing.

[reaper239]

communism, or any strong central government, is doomed to fail just like it always has. my society would be modeled after the US constitution. laws would exist for no purpose other than to protect the rights of citizens against violation by others, and work would be met with reward. and of course anyone is free to leave at anytime, but citizenship must be earned. it's hard work making a life in a hostile environment with other people, trust is a major issue, and if people have to earn the right to live in a society, they will be more inclined to defend it against all threats. if more enclaves sought to be like us then we could rally together. uless of course it was a small society (ie under say 50 people) then we would probably just live together like what hiro described. the problem is that once your society gets too large people can justify certain actions to themselves due to anonymity with their victims.

[Osiris]

I think the important thing here to remember is this: All civilizations will fall. History has proven that again and again. It's only a matter of when.

[reaper239]

historically you're absolutely right, but there has never been a nation like America before. true, nothing lasts forever, but no nation has fostered more prosperity and innovation than this one, ever.

[Osiris]

historically you're absolutely right, but there has never been a nation like America before. true, nothing lasts forever, but no nation has fostered more prosperity and innovation than this one, ever.

And they're currently crumbling. A very short lifespan when compared to other empires. I would also respectfully disagree with regard to prosperity and innovation and cite the Roman/Byzantine empire which not only were leaders in advancing every aspect of education and science (relative to their time) but stretched more than 1400 years. America will never last that long without succumbing to the pocket of another nation.

[HorrorHiro]

What Osiris said.

[reaper239]

And they're currently crumbling. A very short lifespan when compared to other empires. I would also respectfully disagree with regard to prosperity and innovation and cite the Roman/Byzantine empire which not only were leaders in advancing every aspect of education and science (relative to their time) but stretched more than 1400 years. America will never last that long without succumbing to the pocket of another nation.

we are also not an empire in the clasical sense. those empires took forever to build and just as long to fall, why? because they were primitive (relative to today). today, fortunes larger than anything the romans dreamed of are won and lost in seconds. and as far as prosperity and innovation, in our short 200 years we have gone from sailing the seas for years in wind powered boats to complaining that it takes about 18 hours to go around the world. we put a man on the moon and have come closer to understanding the true nature of the cosmos than anyone before us. i have a phone that can do more calculations, faster, than all of romes philosophers and mathmeticians. the romans starved for periods during the winters, i don't feel like cooking any of the weeks worth of food in my fridge so i go somewhere where people cook food and wait for me to pay them for their cooking skills. i can go in a matter of hours, the same distance it would take a roman days to go, even on their roads. i can be a scientist in my spare time, and i don't need to go to a college to learn everything i want to know about everything i want to know about. the knowledge of the world is at my finger tips. i am talking to you without talking to you, from an unknown location somewhere in the world, through a non-tangible medium using equipment that, without the advent of electricity, would've never come into being. i am learning about you, and i will probably never meet you. all of these innovations, and more, came from America, not rome. we have advanced more in the past 200 hundred years than in the previous 5,000 combined. and you're right, we are slowly crumbling, all thanks to socialist policies being implimented. you may think that America is not that great, but all of the modern amenities that you enjoy: electricity, light bulbs, ac, computers, internet, das auto, air planes, it all came from here, because this has been a nation that honors peoples rights to dream, and grants them the freedom to chase after those dreams.

[yarri]

What Osiris said.
What Reaper239 said......

[Eviebae]

we are also not an empire in the classical sense. those empires took forever to build and just as long to fall.

Just so you know; I think about this ALL the time. :o I know that's at least part of the appeal of zombie literature to me. So basically I could talk about it all day.

I think empires and governments fail because they can't change enough to remain viable (paradigm shift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift)). Dysfunctional patterns grow larger and larger. Established interests (not just the rich) aren't able to/don't wish to make necessary changes for various reasons and the system stops working. Empires become an old sick bison that no one knows how to treat. Then the wolves come (well, first the greedier bisons, then while they are too busy to notice--the wolves).

That's way too simplistic I know, but i'm talking about the big, low resolution picture--the one that can span the most instances. For instance, a lot of those dysfunctional patterns were very functional at one point--or at least worked on some level for a large enough number of people.

I wonder if at what point it becomes impossible to catastrophically fail--as in become an abandoned ghost town like the Mayans empire. I guess there has to be something better to leave towards or no way back.

[Osiris]

we are also not an empire in the clasical sense. those empires took forever to build and just as long to fall, why? because they were primitive (relative to today). today, fortunes larger than anything the romans dreamed of are won and lost in seconds. and as far as prosperity and innovation, in our short 200 years we have gone from sailing the seas for years in wind powered boats to complaining that it takes about 18 hours to go around the world. we put a man on the moon and have come closer to understanding the true nature of the cosmos than anyone before us. i have a phone that can do more calculations, faster, than all of romes philosophers and mathmeticians. the romans starved for periods during the winters, i don't feel like cooking any of the weeks worth of food in my fridge so i go somewhere where people cook food and wait for me to pay them for their cooking skills. i can go in a matter of hours, the same distance it would take a roman days to go, even on their roads. i can be a scientist in my spare time, and i don't need to go to a college to learn everything i want to know about everything i want to know about. the knowledge of the world is at my finger tips. i am talking to you without talking to you, from an unknown location somewhere in the world, through a non-tangible medium using equipment that, without the advent of electricity, would've never come into being. i am learning about you, and i will probably never meet you. all of these innovations, and more, came from America, not rome. we have advanced more in the past 200 hundred years than in the previous 5,000 combined. and you're right, we are slowly crumbling, all thanks to socialist policies being implimented. you may think that America is not that great, but all of the modern amenities that you enjoy: electricity, light bulbs, ac, computers, internet, das auto, air planes, it all came from here, because this has been a nation that honors peoples rights to dream, and grants them the freedom to chase after those dreams.

You have to stop thinking so linear. People of that time would have said the same shit you're saying right now. Compared in the grand scheme of time? Nothing we've built will stand as long as structures built thousands of years before you were born. If you're going to give the current world you live in credit for it's current state without acknowledging that which came before... you're missing the bigger picture. You're also under-educated if you truly believe that all of the technological marvels you are using to ratify your argument came from America... you're just being ignorant. Your ignorance of history--and the world you presently reside in--aside, your argument is intended to provoke. Allow me to answer your questions.

Cars did NOT come from America--in fact they weren't even invented on this continent.

The airplane's origins are questionable. Alberto Santos-Dumont may be an interesting to read up on.

The internet? Timothy Beners-Lee, a Brit gave us that. Not America, my friend.

Computers? Konrad Zuse, a German, gave us the first programmable one.

Air conditioning had it's humble beginnings back in merry old 17th century England.

The light bulb? Humphry Davy gave the world the first electric light in 1809 and Henricg Globel built the first light bulb in 1854. He was a watch maker in Germany. America didn't get on board until quite some time later.

As far as electricity goes... you really need to open a book and check your facts before you start making claims that history doesn't back you up on.


This has absolutely nothing to do with what you think of America. It has to do with civilization as a whole.

[reaper239]

wow, here i am being civil and you go and insult me? allow me to educate you:

the first combustion engine automobile was assembled in 1846 by george baldwin selden in America. not only that it was henry fords application of the assembly line that made mass production of cars possible.

really? we're going to debate over the fathers of fixed wing flight? now you're just being disagreeable.

the internet, or arpanet as it was then known, began by connecting UCLA, stanford research institute, UCSB, and the university of utah... in america

the computer may not have been invented in America, but without us it would not be where it is today.

refrigeration was invented by oliver evans and air conditioning would not be possible without it

the electric light bulb was invented by thomas alva edison. an American

electricity was made available to the general public thanks to General Electric, an American company

so before you start insulting people, perhaps you should check your facts. and now a move you seem so to love so much to demonstrate your ignorance:

drops the mic and walks away.
i'm done. argue all you want, you've gotten all the rise out of me you're going to get.

[Osiris]

You realize you're only trolling yourself at this point, right? I'd pick up a book and read if I were you, because these facts you are quoting are wrong. The rest of the world knows it. But don't take my word for it. Look this shit up for yourself and see. Hell, half of it you can find on wikipedia. I've provided names and references for you to check. Your refusal to admit that you're wrong is your own problem. Nobody is insulting you, but you are clearly trying to insult me. But it's ok. Live in ignorance. I just won't be there with you.

Here, educate yourself so that I don't have to.

http://www.google.com/

[HorrorHiro]

Let's not turn intelligent debating to unintelligent trolling.

Reaper, I honestly don't think Osiris was trying to insult you.

Osiris, while I agree with you vast majority of the points you made, please remember that things on the internet can (and often are) misunderstood or misinterpreted. This is something that EVERYONE should try to remember.

[Osiris]

Let's not turn intelligent debating to unintelligent trolling.

Reaper, I honestly don't think Osiris was trying to insult you.

Osiris, while I agree with you vast majority of the points you made, please remember that things on the internet can (and often are) misunderstood or misinterpreted. This is something that EVERYONE should try to remember.


Let's hug it out, brochacho. People get upset when you burst their bubble, so much so that they refuse to check facts provided.

[Osiris]

Either way, this shit has gotten off track.

I think--if I were required to entertain a second option--I would go with a nice, comfortable feudal system. Wouldn't mind having vassals. :D

[Cabbage Patch]

I think--if I were required to entertain a second option--I would go with a nice, comfortable feudal system. Wouldn't mind having vassals. :D


So something like the Colony?

[yarri]

You have to stop thinking so linear. People of that time would have said the same shit you're saying right now. Compared in the grand scheme of time? Nothing we've built will stand as long as structures built thousands of years before you were born. If you're going to give the current world you live in credit for it's current state without acknowledging that which came before... you're missing the bigger picture. You're also under-educated if you truly believe that all of the technological marvels you are using to ratify your argument came from America... you're just being ignorant. Your ignorance of history--and the world you presently reside in--aside, your argument is intended to provoke. Allow me to answer your questions.

Cars did NOT come from America--in fact they weren't even invented on this continent.

The airplane's origins are questionable. Alberto Santos-Dumont may be an interesting to read up on.

The internet? Timothy Beners-Lee, a Brit gave us that. Not America, my friend.

Computers? Konrad Zuse, a German, gave us the first programmable one.

Air conditioning had it's humble beginnings back in merry old 17th century England.

The light bulb? Humphry Davy gave the world the first electric light in 1809 and Henricg Globel built the first light bulb in 1854. He was a watch maker in Germany. America didn't get on board until quite some time later.

As far as electricity goes... you really need to open a book and check your facts before you start making claims that history doesn't back you up on.


This has absolutely nothing to do with what you think of America. It has to do with civilization as a whole.



As I'm stoned at the moment cause of my hip.. I'm going to have to do this piece by piece so bare with me....

I've checked 3 sites and the first official though poorly functional light bulb was credited to Josepth Swan..who held the first patent on it.
Edison was credited for improving upon the initial design and creating the first fully functional light bulb not Humphry Davy.

Wiki isn't a really an accredited website to draw information from.. or at least it wasn't when I was in school as anyone can edit it and their facts aren't always accurate.

[yarri]

You have to stop thinking so linear. People of that time would have said the same shit you're saying right now. Compared in the grand scheme of time? Nothing we've built will stand as long as structures built thousands of years before you were born. If you're going to give the current world you live in credit for it's current state without acknowledging that which came before... you're missing the bigger picture. You're also under-educated if you truly believe that all of the technological marvels you are using to ratify your argument came from America... you're just being ignorant. Your ignorance of history--and the world you presently reside in--aside, your argument is intended to provoke. Allow me to answer your questions.

Cars did NOT come from America--in fact they weren't even invented on this continent.

The airplane's origins are questionable. Alberto Santos-Dumont may be an interesting to read up on.

The internet? Timothy Beners-Lee, a Brit gave us that. Not America, my friend.

Computers? Konrad Zuse, a German, gave us the first programmable one.

Air conditioning had it's humble beginnings back in merry old 17th century England.

The light bulb? Humphry Davy gave the world the first electric light in 1809 and Henricg Globel built the first light bulb in 1854. He was a watch maker in Germany. America didn't get on board until quite some time later.

As far as electricity goes... you really need to open a book and check your facts before you start making claims that history doesn't back you up on.


This has absolutely nothing to do with what you think of America. It has to do with civilization as a whole.



Airplanes..... we'll try that next while I still have brain power...

the Wright brothers are credited with the first successful fixed wing heavier then air flight on dec 17 1903 they lasted 12 seconds in the air..
I cut and pasted this next bit directly from the Smithsonian web site.

"Aboard the 14-BIS he made his first unsuccessfull attempt in July, 1906. On September 7th, the 14-BIS wheels left the ground for a moment; on the 13th it could reach the height of one meter; on October 23rd, the airplane flew 50 meters. It was on November 12th, 1906 that Santos Dumont’s airplane, the 14-BIS, flew a distance of 220 meters at the height of 6 meters and at the speed of 37,358 km/h. Thanks to this flight the "Archdecon Prize" was awarded to Santos Dumont, who had thus, solved the problem of making a heavier-than-air machine take off by its own means."

November 12th 1906

The Smithsonian talks about how Dumont used the Wright brother's ideas to improve upon them and thus had his successful flight.. also the Wright brothers had requested permission to use designs from other inventors as well.

[Osiris]

As I'm stoned at the moment cause of my hip.. I'm going to have to do this piece by piece so bare with me....

I've checked 3 sites and the first official though poorly functional light bulb was credited to Josepth Swan..who held the first patent on it.
Edison was credited for improving upon the initial design and creating the first fully functional light bulb not Humphry Davy.

Wiki isn't a really an accredited website to draw information from.. or at least it wasn't when I was in school as anyone can edit it and their facts aren't always accurate.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Humphry+Davy+Henricg+Globel


I tend to avoid wikipedia for fact checking and instead will search a variety of sources. Books, professors, historians. Wiki is a last resort as far as I'm concerened. A quick check of America's own Library of Congress website backs the inventor of the car as.... BENZ! In Germany. I didn't just pull shit out of my hat. It can all be checked and verified through any number of sources.

I don't just do it to annoy. Popular misconceptions are purveyors of ignorance and should be questioned. I question things. My only point to the argument that ensued was simple:

If you're going to stand on the shoulders of giants, at least credit the giant you're standing on. If it wasn't for the civilizations of the past, the world as we know it would be a VERY different place. Some of the greatest intellects, advances in all aspects of art, science, maths, literature and infrastructure came as the result of the Roman Empire. To arbitrarily dismiss that is foolish and arrogant.

Either way, it comes down to a matter of wounded pride (not my own as I'm not American, and really Canada hasn't done much of anything except Poutine, Gretzky and some great comedians, but I embrace that.) and because of that simple fact checking is ignored.

[yarri]

https://www.google.com/search?q=Humphry+Davy+Henricg+Globel


I tend to avoid wikipedia for fact checking and instead will search a variety of sources. Books, professors, historians. Wiki is a last resort as far as I'm concerened. A quick check of America's own Library of Congress website backs the inventor of the car as.... BENZ! In Germany. I didn't just pull shit out of my hat. It can all be checked and verified through any number of sources.

I don't just do it to annoy. Popular misconceptions are purveyors of ignorance and should be questioned. I question things. My only point to the argument that ensued was simple:

If you're going to stand on the shoulders of giants, at least credit the giant you're standing on. If it wasn't for the civilizations of the past, the world as we know it would be a VERY different place. Some of the greatest intellects, advances in all aspects of art, science, maths, literature and infrastructure came as the result of the Roman Empire. To arbitrarily dismiss that is foolish and arrogant.

Either way, it comes down to a matter of wounded pride (not my own as I'm not American, and really Canada hasn't done much of anything except Poutine, Gretzky and some great comedians, but I embrace that.) and because of that simple fact checking is ignored.

My personal believe is there are no true one of a kind invention in the world. That's not how science works.. All inventors pull from multiple resources and ideas to create or improve on something else.

Wounded pride.. no not that its more like a great deal of tiredness of being the bastard unwanted offspring of the world. My countrymen are judged by the media's misrepresentation of us based on TV and our goverment not by who we are as a people I've had to correct multiple misconceptions of friends from overseas... I don't speak for Reaper but I feel that might be where he's coming from if I'm wrong he will correct me tomorrow.

[Osiris]

Airplanes..... we'll try that next while I still have brain power...

the Wright brothers are credited with the first successful fixed wing heavier then air flight on dec 17 1903 they lasted 12 seconds in the air..
I cut and pasted this next bit directly from the Smithsonian web site.

"Aboard the 14-BIS he made his first unsuccessfull attempt in July, 1906. On September 7th, the 14-BIS wheels left the ground for a moment; on the 13th it could reach the height of one meter; on October 23rd, the airplane flew 50 meters. It was on November 12th, 1906 that Santos Dumont’s airplane, the 14-BIS, flew a distance of 220 meters at the height of 6 meters and at the speed of 37,358 km/h. Thanks to this flight the "Archdecon Prize" was awarded to Santos Dumont, who had thus, solved the problem of making a heavier-than-air machine take off by its own means."

November 12th 1906

The Smithsonian talks about how Dumont used the Wright brother's ideas to improve upon them and thus had his successful flight.. also the Wright brothers had requested permission to use designs from other inventors as well.

Which is why I said 'debatable' and that Santos-Dumont is an interesting read. The fact that their 'flights' were conducted in relative secrecy leads an inability to confirm an exact, irrefutable date. I've read more than a few articles that have cited that particular point as cause for questions to be asked. You can argue that the father of the idea was Da Vinci. The whole point is to give credit where it is due.

[yarri]

Which is why I said 'debatable' and that Santos-Dumont is an interesting read. The fact that their 'flights' were conducted in relative secrecy leads an inability to confirm an exact, irrefutable date. I've read more than a few articles that have cited that particular point as cause for questions to be asked. You can argue that the father of the idea was Da Vinci. The whole point is to give credit where it is due.

:) back to my point that there are no true one of a kind ideas ever.. all of them take from others improve upon them and make them better. I read the same articles which is why I went to the Smithsonian for a stable point of reference.

I think the other issue is in America we don't speak english we speak American which as I've been told is a bastard ill begotten son of a whore language. It sounds like english but point of fact its not which is why misunderstandings happen with other english speakers.. I think you and Reaper were following similar lines of the conversation when I read both of your posts I understood what you both were saying and you both were right just saying it in different ways.

[Osiris]

My personal believe is there are no true one of a kind invention in the world. That's not how science works.. All inventors pull from multiple resources and ideas to create or improve on something else.

Wounded pride.. no not that its more like a great deal of tiredness of being the bastard unwanted offspring of the world. My countrymen are judged by the media's misrepresentation of us based on TV and our goverment not by who we are as a people I've had to correct multiple misconceptions of friends from overseas... I don't speak for Reaper but I feel that might be where he's coming from if I'm wrong he will correct me tomorrow.

Really no different than how American's judge the rest of the world. We're all guilty of it to a degree. I prefer to judge an individual by his/her actions. Reaper's actions seemed to be the direct result of me wounding his pride. There was no insult intended--and reading back over my comments, no insult given unless you consider questioning his beliefs with verifiable facts an insult. And it all went downhill from there. That said, he can either look up the facts and make the determinations for himself, or continue to trust his beliefs. Either way, it doesn't affect me at all. I'm comfortable in the knowledge I've gathered and enjoyed the reading.

Somewhat related, you should check out a BBC series called 'Connected'. It's an amazing show that shows the amazing journeys of modern conveniences from their humble beginnings sometimes centuries before. Fantastic documentary series.

[Osiris]

:) back to my point that there are no true one of a kind ideas ever.. all of them take from others improve upon them and make them better. I read the same articles which is why I went to the Smithsonian for a stable point of reference.

Well stable as stable can be given the circumstances. There are periods in time when advances came so close together by so many different inventors that it really comes down to two things:

the bias that comes from the need to be the pioneers and the question of the accuracy of records that are, very often, hundreds of years old. For the record, I am not making an accusation about the validity of the documentation of ANYTHING, I'm merely saying it is difficult to absolute certainty that 100 years ago Tom said: "blah blah blah" exactly two days and eleven hours before Phil said the same thing. So it kind of comes down to who had the better publicist. Consider that plagiarism is not simply limited to the written word.

Still, we're getting way off track here again. I'd love to continue this topic in a separate thread. But we should discontinue it here.

[yarri]

Really no different than how American's judge the rest of the world. We're all guilty of it to a degree. I prefer to judge an individual by his/her actions. Reaper's actions seemed to be the direct result of me wounding his pride. There was no insult intended--and reading back over my comments, no insult given unless you consider questioning his beliefs with verifiable facts an insult. And it all went downhill from there. That said, he can either look up the facts and make the determinations for himself, or continue to trust his beliefs. Either way, it doesn't affect me at all. I'm comfortable in the knowledge I've gathered and enjoyed the reading.

Somewhat related, you should check out a BBC series called 'Connected'. It's an amazing show that shows the amazing journeys of modern conveniences from their humble beginnings sometimes centuries before. Fantastic documentary series.


One of my points of personal moral guidance is to try and over come that "judgmental" nature that comes with being human. In doing so I hope to help others learn to do it as well. I think the world would be a better place if folks talked and asked questions face to face.

:) Osiris with respect to our new civility which I'm enjoying I will speak plainly to you. You can come off as a hard ass at times. Its who you are and its not something you should change as that would change who you are at your core and that's not acceptable as its part of your rough charm.

and I've spent the last 10 minutes trying to google that documentary and I can't find it :( shit!

[Osiris]

AW Shit sorry! it's BBC Connections! Not Connected! My bad. Percocet.

[Eviebae]

That's my policy too! I try to let people be who they are and act according to how I choose to be. It was an epiphany to realize that when you let someone dictate your responses you were essentially...

[yarri]

you hit it all.. utterly awesome post especially the baseball bat LOL

[Osiris]

I'd agree with all but the bat.

[reaper239]

wow, here i am being civil and you go and insult me? allow me to educate you:

the first combustion engine automobile was assembled in 1846 by george baldwin selden in America. not only that it was henry fords application of the assembly line that made mass production of cars possible.

really? we're going to debate over the fathers of fixed wing flight? now you're just being disagreeable.

the internet, or arpanet as it was then known, began by connecting UCLA, stanford research institute, UCSB, and the university of utah... in america

the computer may not have been invented in America, but without us it would not be where it is today.

refrigeration was invented by oliver evans and air conditioning would not be possible without it

the electric light bulb was invented by thomas alva edison. an American

electricity was made available to the general public thanks to General Electric, an American company

so before you start insulting people, perhaps you should check your facts. and now a move you seem so to love so much to demonstrate your ignorance:

drops the mic and walks away.
i'm done. argue all you want, you've gotten all the rise out of me you're going to get.

i did make one mistake, it was not GE that developed the means of making electricity available to the masses, but samuel insull's Chicago Edison Co. i wanted to fix that since i made a mistake.

[Osiris]

You made several mistakes. Perhaps you should consider quitting while you believe you are ahead.

[Adventureless_Hero]

Aaaaaaanyway,


...why rebuild? Fuck it all. We are a plague on this Earth and keep raping it for our own survival. Sure it brings up things like scientific discovery and saves lives through invention and shtuff, but what good is it to save life after life if the quality of life is being perverted? Whereas we used to have an equilibrium with the world, we now take more than our share. I often times feel like a locust or a cancer on this planet. I say why rebuild. We should prevent over population and let the natural predators and diseases of the world keep us in check.

Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to turn on all the lights at my desk (even the ones I don't need), plug in my iPod, grab another iced tea, and listen to an audio book, while partially doing my work and mostly surfing the internet. :P

[Eviebae]

Aaaaaaanyway,
...why rebuild? Fuck it all. We are a plague on this Earth and keep raping it for our own survival. :P

We're part of nature too dammit--dinosaurs were all at peace with nature and look where it got them--feathered! That's where! You one of those feather loving hippies boy?

[yarri]

i did make one mistake, it was not GE that developed the means of making electricity available to the masses, but samuel insull's Chicago Edison Co. i wanted to fix that since i made a mistake.


You made several mistakes. Perhaps you should consider quitting while you believe you are ahead.



Mommy, Daddy please stop fighting. You know I love you both and it hurts me when you fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....

[yarri]

I'd agree with all but the bat.

No, I like the bat I want to keep the bat the bat makes me happy! No one's taking my bat today!

[yarri]

We're part of nature too dammit--dinosaurs were all at peace with nature and look where it got them--feathered! That's where! You one of those feather loving hippies boy?

He might be one of those....people.. but part of me agrees with him. Let it go back to small villages let us spread out enough we don't fight for 500 years. Let the memory of the political and social crap in the world just be some story a mother tells her kids to scare them into behaving.. Let this time be the bogey man.


I'm living up to my sig line today...

[Osiris]

I would like to extend my apologies to HorrorHiro and to the rest of the board for the thread derailment and subsequent shitstorm of childish behaviour with regard to my circular argument with reaper329, and to publicly extend the same apology to reaper239 himself.

Carry on.

[reaper239]

I would like to extend my apologies to HorrorHiro and to the rest of the board for the thread derailment and subsequent shitstorm of childish behaviour with regard to my circular argument with reaper329, and to publicly extend the same apology to reaper329 himself.

Carry on.


agreed, accepted, and i wish to extend the same. my behavior was indeed unacceptable. i'll just have to be more mindful to double check the meaning of someones post before i get all bent out of shape.

[Osiris]

Hug it out. Hug it out. http://smiliesftw.com/x/e5chug.gif

[reaper239]

Hug it out. Hug it out. http://smiliesftw.com/x/e5chug.gif

:melt::omgomg::excited::yay::o

[HorrorHiro]

Peace and Love :)

[HorrorHiro]

Aaaaaaanyway,


...why rebuild? Fuck it all. We are a plague on this Earth and keep raping it for our own survival. Sure it brings up things like scientific discovery and saves lives through invention and shtuff, but what good is it to save life after life if the quality of life is being perverted? Whereas we used to have an equilibrium with the world, we now take more than our share. I often times feel like a locust or a cancer on this planet. I say why rebuild. We should prevent over population and let the natural predators and diseases of the world keep us in check.

Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to turn on all the lights at my desk (even the ones I don't need), plug in my iPod, grab another iced tea, and listen to an audio book, while partially doing my work and mostly surfing the internet. :P

This is part of the reason why I am an Anarchist, I believe we can live life without raping the world and taking more than we need from this planet that none of us deserve to claim we own.

[trubkir]

My plan would be to work my way to a pulp mill somewhere in Northern Alberta or Northern BC. Do my best to liberate the people from whatever oppression exists and then hopefully enough skilled labor exists to operate the pulp mill. Then I would inspire the people to start up said pulp mill, with all supporting industries and make toilet paper. I bet I and my loyal crew would rule the planet in a month.

[trubkir]

I would like to extend my apologies to HorrorHiro and to the rest of the board for the thread derailment and subsequent shitstorm of childish behaviour with regard to my circular argument with reaper329, and to publicly extend the same apology to reaper239 himself.

Carry on.


One of my favorite parts from Idiocracy is the discussion of using Brawndo for irrigating crops. So I was amused.

[Cabbage Patch]

My plan would be to work my way to a pulp mill somewhere in Northern Alberta or Northern BC. Do my best to liberate the people from whatever oppression exists and then hopefully enough skilled labor exists to operate the pulp mill. Then I would inspire the people to start up said pulp mill, with all supporting industries and make toilet paper. I bet I and my loyal crew would rule the planet in a month.

Wait, I may have heard this idea before. Doesn't it all depend on you wearing a postal service uniform? Are you Kevin Costner?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119925/

[trubkir]

Let us just first agree that the only movie Costner was good in was Bull Durham. Second my idea has nothing to do with mail or communication of any type. My idea is to preserve the realest and truist part of the human experience and that is to drop a deuce with dignity, class and a little bit of comfort.

[Osiris]

Wait, I may have heard this idea before. Doesn't it all depend on you wearing a postal service uniform? Are you Kevin Costner?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119925/


Swims with Wolves?

[Cabbage Patch]

Let us just first agree that the only movie Costner was good in was Bull Durham. Second my idea has nothing to do with mail or communication of any type. My idea is to preserve the realest and truist part of the human experience and that is to drop a deuce with dignity, class and a little bit of comfort.

No offense intended, I'm a big Costner fan and I actually liked...parts...of The Postman movie, the David Brin book much more, so I found the superficial resemblance enjoyable.

One question Costner wouldn't face, what do you imagine the zombie situation would be like in Northern Alberta or Northern BC? I wonder if the general isolation of the communities there wouldn't give them an advantage during the early phases of an outbreak like it did at Fort Irwin.

[trubkir]

No offense taken. I still rue the day I paid full price to see the Postman in a theater. I agree that the isolation would be an advantage. I would hope that the deep snow and below zero weather experienced there in winter and the rain induced mud in summer would slow the zombies down (if that was the devastating event) to allow for easier eradication and defense. Still the same issues with fuel, food, utilities as everywhere else though. It's a hastily conceived plan and I agree there are a number of holes but half a half-assed plan is better than no plan.

[Cabbage Patch]

No offense taken. I still rue the day I paid full price to see the Postman in a theater. I agree that the isolation would be an advantage. I would hope that the deep snow and below zero weather experienced there in winter and the rain induced mud in summer would slow the zombies down (if that was the devastating event) to allow for easier eradication and defense. Still the same issues with fuel, food, utilities as everywhere else though. It's a hastily conceived plan and I agree there are a number of holes but half a half-assed plan is better than no plan.

I seem to recall there being a large Canadian Forces Base near Edmonton where the Canadian and British military practice the same kind of large scale war games that the US forces do at Fort Irwin. Is that a potential resource, or did it close down at the end of the Cold War?

[yarri]

No offense taken. I still rue the day I paid full price to see the Postman in a theater. I agree that the isolation would be an advantage. I would hope that the deep snow and below zero weather experienced there in winter and the rain induced mud in summer would slow the zombies down (if that was the devastating event) to allow for easier eradication and defense. Still the same issues with fuel, food, utilities as everywhere else though. It's a hastily conceived plan and I agree there are a number of holes but half a half-assed plan is better than no plan.


I'll do you one better. I paid to see WaterWorld.... opening day.

[Eviebae]

No offense intended, I'm a big Costner fan and I actually liked...parts...of The Postman movie, the David Brin book much more, so I found the superficial resemblance enjoyable.


I loved the book...until the Super Friends' giant thunderstorm fight...that was silly. I never watched the movie. I saw a trailer for him in a story about the Hatfield and McCoy feud and he actually looked much improved--expressive even.

[Eviebae]

My plan would be to work my way to a pulp mill somewhere in Northern Alberta or Northern BC. Do my best to liberate the people from whatever oppression exists and then hopefully enough skilled labor exists to operate the pulp mill. Then I would inspire the people to start up said pulp mill, with all supporting industries and make toilet paper. I bet I and my loyal crew would rule the planet in a month.

and feminine products, don't forget them.

[Osiris]

I seem to recall there being a large Canadian Forces Base near Edmonton where the Canadian and British military practice the same kind of large scale war games that the US forces do at Fort Irwin. Is that a potential resource, or did it close down at the end of the Cold War?

There are a surprising number of active bases, sprinkled throughout every province, actually. Here in Vancouver and the greater Vancouver area (The Lower Mainland) we have several military installations. You wouldn't even notice the armouries if you were to walk past them on the street, if you weren't paying attention to the flags and statues. I know in Richmond (essentially a suburb of Vancouver), there is a cadet training center that is fully stocked with weapons, ammunition, and vehicles, along with food, and medical supplies. There are definitely options.

[Cabbage Patch]

There are a surprising number of active bases, sprinkled throughout every province, actually. Here in Vancouver and the greater Vancouver area (The Lower Mainland) we have several military installations. You wouldn't even notice the armouries if you were to walk past them on the street, if you weren't paying attention to the flags and statues. I know in Richmond (essentially a suburb of Vancouver), there is a cadet training center that is fully stocked with weapons, ammunition, and vehicles, along with food, and medical supplies. There are definitely options.

Interesting! I know a lot of Americans don't give the Canadian Forces proper credit because of their small size, but anyone who's ever seen them in action will know you can never count those guys out. Professional, resourceful, utterly fearless, and with a seemingly infinite capacity for putting up with BS (mostly coming from their own political leadership). Someday, when the main WA story has finished, I look forward to you, or one of the other Canadian fans writing the definitive tale of Canada in the zombie apocalypse.

[Osiris]

Interesting! I know a lot of Americans don't give the Canadian Forces proper credit because of their small size, but anyone who's ever seen them in action will know you can never count those guys out. Professional, resourceful, utterly fearless, and with a seemingly infinite capacity for putting up with BS (mostly coming from their own political leadership). Someday, when the main WA story has finished, I look forward to you, or one of the other Canadian fans writing the definitive tale of Canada in the zombie apocalypse.

There is actually a pretty good Canadian based "zombie" story kicking around already called Pontypool. Great movie, lots of fun. As well as a book entitled Pontypool Changes Everything by Tony Burgess.

[yarri]

Interesting! I know a lot of Americans don't give the Canadian Forces proper credit because of their small size, but anyone who's ever seen them in action will know you can never count those guys out. Professional, resourceful, utterly fearless, and with a seemingly infinite capacity for putting up with BS (mostly coming from their own political leadership). Someday, when the main WA story has finished, I look forward to you, or one of the other Canadian fans writing the definitive tale of Canada in the zombie apocalypse.

Ok, really ? Why comment on how Americans don't give someone or some service proper respect. Why add it ? Was there a point other then how arrogant we "Americans " are?

[HorrorHiro]

Ok, really ? Why comment on how Americans don't give someone or some service proper respect. Why add it ? Was there a point other then how arrogant we "Americans " are?

I doubt he was trying to say that "us Americans" are arrogant...but to be fair a large potion of this country's population is nothing but A-holes and D-bags, just sayin. Oh and some of those A-holes and D-bags (oh and pyschopaths, can't forget about them) end up in positions of power (political of otherwise.) But that's Capitalism for you...

[yarri]

I doubt he was trying to say that "us Americans" are arrogant...but to be fair a large potion of this country's population is nothing but A-holes and D-bags, just sayin. Oh and some of those A-holes and D-bags (oh and pyschopaths, can't forget about them) end up in positions of power (political of otherwise.) But that's Capitalism for you...

Most likely but at this particular point of the day I opt to not read minds nor am I in the mood to assume or speculate. Rather hear what he has to say.

[Cabbage Patch]

Ok, really ? Why comment on how Americans don't give someone or some service proper respect. Why add it ? Was there a point other then how arrogant we "Americans " are?

My point was to convey a compliment to the Canadian military, and came in the context of an ongoing series of comments on this thread I've been sharing with trubkir and osiris.


...at this particular point of the day I opt to not read minds nor am I in the mood to assume or speculate.

I would respectfully submit that this is exactly what you may have done, implying an insult that I never intended to convey.

[yarri]

My point was to convey a compliment to the Canadian military, and came in the context of an ongoing series of comments on this thread I've been sharing with trubkir and osiris.



I would respectfully submit that this is exactly what you may have done, implying an insult that I never intended to convey.


Then what exactly is "a lot of Americans don't give them proper credit?" suppose to mean?

[Osiris]

Proving once again, that Canada causes problems.

[yarri]

Proving once again, that Canada causes problems.

'
Hush up you.. you Canadian you.. I like you then again I like everyone and I try very hard not to judge.

[Cabbage Patch]

Then what exactly is "a lot of Americans don't give them proper credit?" suppose to mean?

You seem intent on not giving me the benefit of the doubt on this point, so you get all the gory details.

I was an officer in the US Army, and between 1987 and 1991 I was assigned to a unit near Stuttgart, in Southwestern Germany. Ours was the only US combat unit in that part of Germany, but we had two very high level US military headquarters in our area, HQ US European Command and HQ US VIIth Corps, which meant that our area was lousy with senior officers and they spent a lot of time watching us. One of the closest NATO units was the Canadian Forces stationed near Baaden Baaden, their only major deployment in Europe at the time.

During my time in Stuttgart I heard many American, German and French officers, up to the General officer level, question the value of the Canadian Land Forces Brigade. It was understrength, and it had the oldest, least modern hardware of any frontline NATO force. Even the Canadian's shared these doubts. I remember hearing a Canadian Ground Forces General refer to that unit as a "speed bump" on one occassion and as a "token" on another.

None of this was ever directed at the Canadian soliders themselves, man for man they were as good as anyone. The Canadian tank crews we worked with had old, un-modernized Leopard I tanks that were positively ancient compared to the factory-new M-1A1s my troops had, but they knew how to fight them and maintain them and I would have trusted them on my flank any time.

So, did my original statement include some implicit criticism of arrogant Americans...yes. But it was never intended as a sweeping indictment that all Americans are arrogant. It was a personal narrative of my own experiences and came from interactions with a very narrow range of individuals.

[Cabbage Patch]

There is actually a pretty good Canadian based "zombie" story kicking around already called Pontypool. Great movie, lots of fun. As well as a book entitled Pontypool Changes Everything by Tony Burgess.

Small world. On the drive home from work today I listened to the latest edition of "The Walking Dead Cast" podcast and they were doing a review of Pontypool! Sounds intriguing.

[yarri]

You seem intent on not giving me the benefit of the doubt on this point, so you get all the gory details.

I was an officer in the US Army, and between 1987 and 1991 I was assigned to a unit near Stuttgart, in Southwestern Germany. Ours was the only US combat unit in that part of Germany, but we had two very high level US military headquarters in our area, HQ US European Command and HQ US VIIth Corps, which meant that our area was lousy with senior officers and they spent a lot of time watching us. One of the closest NATO units was the Canadian Forces stationed near Baaden Baaden, their only major deployment in Europe at the time.

During my time in Stuttgart I heard many American, German and French officers, up to the General officer level, question the value of the Canadian Land Forces Brigade. It was understrength, and it had the oldest, least modern hardware of any frontline NATO force. Even the Canadian's shared these doubts. I remember hearing a Canadian Ground Forces General refer to that unit as a "speed bump" on one occassion and as a "token" on another.

None of this was ever directed at the Canadian soliders themselves, man for man they were as good as anyone. The Canadian tank crews we worked with had old, un-modernized Leopard I tanks that were positively ancient compared to the factory-new M-1A1s my troops had, but they knew how to fight them and maintain them and I would have trusted them on my flank any time.

So, did my original statement include some implicit criticism of arrogant Americans...yes. But it was never intended as a sweeping indictment that all Americans are arrogant. It was a personal narrative of my own experiences and came from interactions with a very narrow range of individuals.

Ok, we'll address the first part... its not about me giving you the benefit of the doubt. It's me asking you what you actually meant and giving you the opportunity to explain what you actually meant rather then me assuming you were being a judgmental ass and lumping in all Americans into a grossly limited group.

I was enlisted between 86 and 93 stationed in Europe for half of that and my own "delightful" experiences with the antics of military units that were not under the American command but I'll not go into that.
I notice you bring up German, and French officers that bashed the value of the Canadian military.. in this post but not the original.. its popular overseas to bash Americans.. but who am I to question that.. You are entitled to your opinion I won't try and change it. I only asked for a reason behind it.

[reaper239]

You seem intent on not giving me the benefit of the doubt on this point, so you get all the gory details.

I was an officer in the US Army, and between 1987 and 1991 I was assigned to a unit near Stuttgart, in Southwestern Germany. Ours was the only US combat unit in that part of Germany, but we had two very high level US military headquarters in our area, HQ US European Command and HQ US VIIth Corps, which meant that our area was lousy with senior officers and they spent a lot of time watching us. One of the closest NATO units was the Canadian Forces stationed near Baaden Baaden, their only major deployment in Europe at the time.

During my time in Stuttgart I heard many American, German and French officers, up to the General officer level, question the value of the Canadian Land Forces Brigade. It was understrength, and it had the oldest, least modern hardware of any frontline NATO force. Even the Canadian's shared these doubts. I remember hearing a Canadian Ground Forces General refer to that unit as a "speed bump" on one occassion and as a "token" on another.

None of this was ever directed at the Canadian soliders themselves, man for man they were as good as anyone. The Canadian tank crews we worked with had old, un-modernized Leopard I tanks that were positively ancient compared to the factory-new M-1A1s my troops had, but they knew how to fight them and maintain them and I would have trusted them on my flank any time.

So, did my original statement include some implicit criticism of arrogant Americans...yes. But it was never intended as a sweeping indictment that all Americans are arrogant. It was a personal narrative of my own experiences and came from interactions with a very narrow range of individuals.

from what you describe here, they were right. there was no real value to having the canadian forces there at that time other than to soak up bullets. at that time in history, everyone was still worried about the russians, and i have to say that a Leapord I would be easy pickings for a T-72. an understrength unit is only going to get people killed, and get in the way when the full strength units swing around to engage, so it sounds like their concern was not the value of canadian troops, but the strategic and tactical value of any unit that size with that equipment in that location. true, canadian soldiers are some tough guys, but i wouldn't have wanted to be them if the russians came to play. a side note, every tank seems inadequate next to the unbridled fury that is the Abrams. undeniably the best tank in the world, none can stand before it. mwahahahahahaha.

[yarri]

from what you describe here, they were right. there was no real value to having the canadian forces there at that time other than to soak up bullets. at that time in history, everyone was still worried about the russians, and i have to say that a Leapord I would be easy pickings for a T-72. an understrength unit is only going to get people killed, and get in the way when the full strength units swing around to engage, so it sounds like their concern was not the value of canadian troops, but the strategic and tactical value of any unit that size with that equipment in that location. true, canadian soldiers are some tough guys, but i wouldn't have wanted to be them if the russians came to play. a side note, every tank seems inadequate next to the unbridled fury that is the Abrams. undeniably the best tank in the world, none can stand before it. mwahahahahahaha.

Interesting perspective.

[Osiris]

You seem intent on not giving me the benefit of the doubt on this point, so you get all the gory details.

I was an officer in the US Army, and between 1987 and 1991 I was assigned to a unit near Stuttgart, in Southwestern Germany. Ours was the only US combat unit in that part of Germany, but we had two very high level US military headquarters in our area, HQ US European Command and HQ US VIIth Corps, which meant that our area was lousy with senior officers and they spent a lot of time watching us. One of the closest NATO units was the Canadian Forces stationed near Baaden Baaden, their only major deployment in Europe at the time.

During my time in Stuttgart I heard many American, German and French officers, up to the General officer level, question the value of the Canadian Land Forces Brigade. It was understrength, and it had the oldest, least modern hardware of any frontline NATO force. Even the Canadian's shared these doubts. I remember hearing a Canadian Ground Forces General refer to that unit as a "speed bump" on one occassion and as a "token" on another.

None of this was ever directed at the Canadian soliders themselves, man for man they were as good as anyone. The Canadian tank crews we worked with had old, un-modernized Leopard I tanks that were positively ancient compared to the factory-new M-1A1s my troops had, but they knew how to fight them and maintain them and I would have trusted them on my flank any time.

So, did my original statement include some implicit criticism of arrogant Americans...yes. But it was never intended as a sweeping indictment that all Americans are arrogant. It was a personal narrative of my own experiences and came from interactions with a very narrow range of individuals.

Word, bitch. Canada like a motherfucker. It's absolutely true about Canadian arms. They are ancient by the standards of many countries, but we don't dump a lot into the military. We do train out troops hard--I am well aware of that, having family that serve--but when you only have seven tanks, two planes and one sub... how hard can you really train?


Small world. On the drive home from work today I listened to the latest edition of "The Walking Dead Cast" podcast and they were doing a review of Pontypool! Sounds intriguing.

I really enjoyed the movie. I though that Stephen McHattie did a fantastic job as Grant Mazzy. He reminded me so much of Art Bell. If you've ever listened to Art, get a copy of Pontypool, close your eyes and just listen for a few minutes to Mr. Mazzy. It's unfuckingcanny. I loved the fact that the entire movie takes place in a radio station, but you don't even realize it.

[VEE]

If I were to rebuild it would mostly involve trying to repopulate humanity with the assistance of Riley.