Does Kalani get a pass?

[sailorangel59]

I mean, he may be a betrayer, but at least he took out Dick Van Dyke (aka Pippin). Just a thought....

[Osiris]

I will always love Kalani. I hated him at the start, but as time went on he became one of my favourite characters. His adventure with Angel solidified that for me. That motherfucker gets a pass. A superstar 'I'm a big damn hero' pass.

<3 Kalani - Forever Surfing <3

[nikvoodoo]

As much as I like Kalani as the complex character he is/was: no. He can't get a pass. He killed Pippin, he essentially lead to the deaths of Bill, Tommy, a pair of red shirts, and nearly destroyed the Tower.

You can sympathize with his plight. You can empathize with a parent wanting his child back...but you can't give him a pass.

[ComradeNarf]

In all fairness, I would've shot Pippen too. ;)

I certainly can agree that he shouldn't get a pass, but I do feel pretty bad for the him. Coming from the First Tower, he was so certain that the comparatively shoddy defense set up by Cross & Co. was destined to fall. What harm would it do to push the ball along for a quick and painless transfer of power to get Hannah back?

Poor guy. Had no idea the havoc he was about to unleash. I've still got to like him, regardless of all the havoc he caused. Though he could never make amends for his actions, I give him a lot of credit for trying.

[Osiris]

You're must be joking. He paid for his sins with his life. He died trying to save everyone he possibly could. Pippin was a dirtbag who deserved to die. As far as the superfluous characters that died in the attacks as a result of Kalani's actions, it's likely they would have died anyway. The guy was doing what was right: anything and everything he could to save his daughter. Truth be told, family over strangers ANY day of the week. I don't care how friendly they are. I would have put a bullet in any one of them if I were in his position and not lose a minute of sleep over it. Not if it meant getting my child back safe.

[yarri]

You're must be joking. He paid for his sins with his life. He died trying to save everyone he possibly could. Pippin was a dirtbag who deserved to die. As far as the superfluous characters that died in the attacks as a result of Kalani's actions, it's likely they would have died anyway. The guy was doing what was right: anything and everything he could to save his daughter. Truth be told, family over strangers ANY day of the week. I don't care how friendly they are. I would have put a bullet in any one of them if I were in his position and not lose a minute of sleep over it. Not if it meant getting my child back safe.


I have to agree with this. Utterly, agree with this. My child before a friend in any situation, anytime, anywhere, and anyplace. My flesh and blood comes first. In the end he tried to make stuff right. He died trying. It was valiant and took serious courage to stare death in the face and ram that helo into a gas tanker knowing it was going to be a terrible death.

Kalani gets a pass

[Mr. AK-47]

Kalani was at first a vilian for the tower but became their savior. He did unknowing lead to the deaths of three tower members and almost killed everyone however, without Kalani no one would have need able to fly away on the helicopter without him teaching Pegs. Kalani also bought the tower enough time for some people to escape by crashing his helicopter into the tanker sacrificing himself. Also beware Kalani was not working with Scratch or the Maulers out of personal choice but because they had his seventeen year old daughter and after the first attack on the tower stopped all communication with the Maulers thus putting the tower residence before his own daughter. In the end Kalani's self sacrifice does in deed make up for his past.

Btw Bill was kinda a dick and a security anyways.

[Luna Guardian]

I would give him a pass. To be honest, I would probably have done the same thing. When comparing the lives of people you don't know and/or even like and the most important person in your life, people get a pass for being selfish in my book. Its human nature.

I never really disliked Pippin that much before the recent episodes. He doesn't get a pass, and Kalani was a hero for shooting him (Pippin would probably have done the same to the Tower that Kalani did, so...even?)

[Osiris]

Yeah. You wouldn't want to be selfish and try and preserve the life of your child. That would just be fucking selfish.

[Ray]

As far as the superfluous characters that died in the attacks as a result of Kalani's actions, it's likely they would have died anyway. The guy was doing what was right: anything and everything he could to save his daughter.

No, they died specifically because of Kalani. HE killed every single person that has died because of the attack by the mallers. Had he not lead them there, had he not betrayed them, had he not made damn sure that they couldn't fight back they all died. Would they have died later on? Maybe. All we know is that they ARE dead because of the actions of Kalani. Yes, protect your child and all, but only a moron would think that they Mallers would hold up their end of the deal. Kalani was stupid for believing they would and because of that everything that sits now is because of him. He can never be forgiven for what he did, fighting for his daughter or not. The second they took Hanna away from him, she was as good as dead. Only an idiot (in his shoes, not anyone here) would think otherwise and his actions are the sole reason everyone that is dead or missing is gone. The only reason. Crashing the helo into the rig wasn't because of his desire to save everyone, he said that he barely tolerated everyone even after all the work they were doing to try and save as many people as they could. Kalani was looking out for himself and Hanna the whole time, no one else. Thinking he could save Hanna was complete stupidity. He saw how they treated everyone and for cripes sake they were all murders and violent criminals, how could he possibly think they would hold up their end of the deal? He saw first hand what they were capable of, Scratch was hell bent on killing every single one of the Tower residents because Pegs killed her brother in self defense. Scratch attacked innocent people and they merely defended themselves and she goes on a murderous rampage. Kalani should have known right then that Hanna was as good as dead. He was an irrational, idiotic, backstabbing moron and he deserved what he got. Good riddance to him, they were vastly better off before he showed up. Hell, they saved his life at the risk of their own at the Arena and he paid them back with betrayal. Kid or no kid, he was a dangerous idiot that got almost everyone killed while insulting them and plotting behind their backs. He justly died, but he should have suffered for it in the process.

[yarri]

No, they died specifically because of Kalani. HE killed every single person that has died because of the attack by the mallers. Had he not lead them there, had he not betrayed them, had he not made damn sure that they couldn't fight back they all died. Would they have died later on? Maybe. All we know is that they ARE dead because of the actions of Kalani. Yes, protect your child and all, but only a moron would think that they Mallers would hold up their end of the deal. Kalani was stupid for believing they would and because of that everything that sits now is because of him. He can never be forgiven for what he did, fighting for his daughter or not. The second they took Hanna away from him, she was as good as dead. Only an idiot (in his shoes, not anyone here) would think otherwise and his actions are the sole reason everyone that is dead or missing is gone. The only reason. Crashing the helo into the rig wasn't because of his desire to save everyone, he said that he barely tolerated everyone even after all the work they were doing to try and save as many people as they could. Kalani was looking out for himself and Hanna the whole time, no one else. Thinking he could save Hanna was complete stupidity. He saw how they treated everyone and for cripes sake they were all murders and violent criminals, how could he possibly think they would hold up their end of the deal? He saw first hand what they were capable of, Scratch was hell bent on killing every single one of the Tower residents because Pegs killed her brother in self defense. Scratch attacked innocent people and they merely defended themselves and she goes on a murderous rampage. Kalani should have known right then that Hanna was as good as dead. He was an irrational, idiotic, backstabbing moron and he deserved what he got. Good riddance to him, they were vastly better off before he showed up. Hell, they saved his life at the risk of their own at the Arena and he paid them back with betrayal. Kid or no kid, he was a dangerous idiot that got almost everyone killed while insulting them and plotting behind their backs. He justly died, but he should have suffered for it in the process.

So what would you do if you were in his place do? Write her off?

[Adventureless_Hero]

@ Ray
I would say it is incorrect to blame Kalani for everyone that died in Michaels tower. Perhaps Tommy, Bill, and Ryan's death can be attributed to Kalani, but not the others. When the tower came under attack for the second and final time, that was no fault of Kalani's. That was Scratch being vengeful.

I can sense your disgust with Kalani and I agree with you on some points, but I don't see it as black and white as you do.

[Osiris]

No, they died specifically because of Kalani. HE killed every single person that has died because of the attack by the mallers. Had he not lead them there, had he not betrayed them, had he not made damn sure that they couldn't fight back they all died. Would they have died later on? Maybe. All we know is that they ARE dead because of the actions of Kalani. Yes, protect your child and all, but only a moron would think that they Mallers would hold up their end of the deal. Kalani was stupid for believing they would and because of that everything that sits now is because of him. He can never be forgiven for what he did, fighting for his daughter or not. The second they took Hanna away from him, she was as good as dead. Only an idiot (in his shoes, not anyone here) would think otherwise and his actions are the sole reason everyone that is dead or missing is gone. The only reason. Crashing the helo into the rig wasn't because of his desire to save everyone, he said that he barely tolerated everyone even after all the work they were doing to try and save as many people as they could. Kalani was looking out for himself and Hanna the whole time, no one else. Thinking he could save Hanna was complete stupidity. He saw how they treated everyone and for cripes sake they were all murders and violent criminals, how could he possibly think they would hold up their end of the deal? He saw first hand what they were capable of, Scratch was hell bent on killing every single one of the Tower residents because Pegs killed her brother in self defense. Scratch attacked innocent people and they merely defended themselves and she goes on a murderous rampage. Kalani should have known right then that Hanna was as good as dead. He was an irrational, idiotic, backstabbing moron and he deserved what he got. Good riddance to him, they were vastly better off before he showed up. Hell, they saved his life at the risk of their own at the Arena and he paid them back with betrayal. Kid or no kid, he was a dangerous idiot that got almost everyone killed while insulting them and plotting behind their backs. He justly died, but he should have suffered for it in the process.

That wasn't judgmental at all. As far your staunch advocacy for the tower being better off without him, well to be honest you're completely wrong. Without Kalani they never would have had the ability to fly. Without the ability to fly there would be no escape. War was coming to the Tower regardless of Kalani's actions. The Mallers would have found them eventually and likely the loss of life would be far greater had Kalani not taught someone to fly the other helicopter.

You can claim that Pegs acted out of self-defence, killing Latch, but that's exactly what Kalani was doing. Acting to defend his daughter with the hope of seeing her again. Whether or not you believe he was stupid is moot. I say the same for Pegs, Michael, Saul, Angel, Burt... ANYONE who made a rash decision that resulted in the odds being further stacked against the Tower. Everyone knows the moment that bad blood developed between The Tower and The Mallers. The moment when Burt popped off a shot at a mirror in an attempt to piss higher on the tree than Scratch. Nobody likes a show-off. Talk about a lack of rational thought, foresight and judgment.

Kalani may have deceived the people in the Tower, but in all honesty he had no stake in that world. He was doing what he had to do--through coercion--in order to at least try and ensure the safety of his child. Saying he was stupid for even trying shows that you a) have no children of your own and if you do would trip them to escape from anything wanting to eat you and b) zero sense of loyalty to your own family.

Kalani gave the Tower a means of escaping the danger the Mallers presented and went further by dying to give them a chance. Say what you want, but if he was truly a piece of shit he would have taken off the moment everyone else was out of the bird. That's a fact. He wouldn't have sat on top of the tower waiting to cart all their asses to safety, leaving his daughter behind in the process.

[Osiris]

Lest we forget how many times Lizzy put the tower in extreme peril or got someone killed.... P---

[zombeh-kitteh]

I'm agreeing with Osiris and yarri on this one...

While Tommy, Bill, and Ryan's deaths are Kalani's fault, he was only trying to save his daughter, and he probably didn't think that the War would even occur.

Kalani was probably hoping that because everyone would be drunk as sh*t or asleep, that the takeover would be relatively quiet and the new regime set up by the time morning came...but that's not what happened.

As for killing Pippin, he obviously did it because he didn't want any more people to be hurt, that and Pippin was an a$$hole. (I seriously laughed aloud when Kalani mutters "F*ck you wanker." I want to hear him say that right before he shoots him...that would be hilarious).

I believe he more than made up for it by training Pegs to fly, ensuring that they would have an alternate means of escape...oh, and sacrificing himself so that the few who did escape could.

I wasn't crazy about Kalani's character until these later chapters, but my mind has been changed since, albeit everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Some are going to see him as a hero, others will see him as a murderer. The same could be said about Scratch, when it comes down to it (not that I think she's a hero...btw).

I think overall, the good Kalani did outweighs the evil he caused.

[mem]

Kalani was bad. He was bad because they had his daughter. Any parent would do the same to protect their baby. This doesnt justify his actions as right. It justifies him as being a loving father who was trying to protect his child. His death justified him somewhat but he still did bad things. He knew and thus chose the path to make himself useful to the people he had betrayed. He was still a bad guy. If i was put in that situation I'd off as many people as I had to to keep my child alive. Any parent worth using our air would. That doesnt make one a saint. They still have to live with their actions. Kalani's death was how he atoned for his transgressions.

[Osiris]

This thread should have had a poll.

[mem]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2417/2532895476_80a8d65413.jpg

[shiroidenkou1994]

Kalani betrayed the Tower. For that, I will never give him a pass. Hannah's fate was sealed the moment the Mallers took her away. That is no excuse. And even if it was, the better thing to do would've been to tell the Tower (or the first group) about what was going on, and prepare them to fight back. Instead, he took the chickenshit way out and people got killed.

As for being the saviour of the Tower, I suppose that's true. If Kalani had never come along, and IF the Mallers didn't kill them all (that's a really big if.), then they would have lasted maybe a year, maybe two. They would have petered out , losing one here, one there to the zombies or diseases or in minor skirmishes with the Mallers. The apartment building was never a viable long-term solution. Plus, he taught Pegs to fly and (presumably) gave his life in defense of the Tower. That's a good thing, so he gets a big 'thumbs up' for that.

Still, it's like if an emergency surgeon who had saved hundreds of lives suddenly murdered someone. Would you give the surgeon a pass for the murder? I wouldn't.

He did good things, and he did bad things. They don't cancel out, they're just separate things entirely. That's my take on this whole Kalani thing.

[Osiris]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2417/2532895476_80a8d65413.jpg

:D

[Osiris]

Kalani betrayed the Tower. For that, I will never give him a pass. Hannah's fate was sealed the moment the Mallers took her away. That is no excuse. And even if it was, the better thing to do would've been to tell the Tower (or the first group) about what was going on, and prepare them to fight back. Instead, he took the chickenshit way out and people got killed.

As for being the saviour of the Tower, I suppose that's true. If Kalani had never come along, and IF the Mallers didn't kill them all (that's a really big if.), then they would have lasted maybe a year, maybe two. They would have petered out , losing one here, one there to the zombies or diseases or in minor skirmishes with the Mallers. The apartment building was never a viable long-term solution. Plus, he taught Pegs to fly and (presumably) gave his life in defense of the Tower. That's a good thing, so he gets a big 'thumbs up' for that.

Still, it's like if an emergency surgeon who had saved hundreds of lives suddenly murdered someone. Would you give the surgeon a pass for the murder? I wouldn't.

He did good things, and he did bad things. They don't cancel out, they're just separate things entirely. That's my take on this whole Kalani thing.

I'll grant that while we--as outsiders looking in--may have known that Hannah was going to end up taking a dirt nap, it wouldn't have been possible for Kalani to ascertain that he had lost her for good. Even if the thought had crossed his mind, the thought of getting her back trumps all else. I think it's necessary to take knowledge through stunted omniscience out of the equation and look at it from a far more limited perspective: Dad's. If you do that, it's impossible to think you could simply write her off as dead and not bother following the kidnapper's demands to get her back.

Also, the only person that Kalani technically murdered was Pippin, the guy there to flip the tables on Kalani, sell him out and take over the mission. The rest is collateral damage. That said, I flip your last statement. Would you give a pass to someone who murdered one piece of shit and saved hundreds of lives afterwards?

[yarri]

Kalani betrayed the Tower. For that, I will never give him a pass. Hannah's fate was sealed the moment the Mallers took her away. That is no excuse. And even if it was, the better thing to do would've been to tell the Tower (or the first group) about what was going on, and prepare them to fight back. Instead, he took the chickenshit way out and people got killed.
.


I'll ask you.. What was Kalani suppose to do ? Write off his daughter when he left her behind in the hands of the Mallers?

[shiroidenkou1994]

I'll ask you.. What was Kalani suppose to do ? Write off his daughter when he left her behind in the hands of the Mallers?
In answer to your question, I refer you to my original post: "the better thing to do would've been to tell the Tower (or the first group) about what was going on, and prepare them to fight back." He could have set up the Mallers for an ambush, made them think everyone would be unprepared, and given 'em hell when they arrived. If he wanted Hannah back, that would have been a smarter, more ethical way to achieve that goal.

[Ray]

Would you give a pass to someone who murdered one piece of shit and saved hundreds of lives afterwards?

Mutually exclusive. Kalani didn't save a hundred lives after he killed Pippin. Everyone that was in the Tower and is dead now, he and Bill are 100% responsible for. The ENTIRE situation as it stands goes all the way back to Kalani betraying everyone in the Tower. Saul and Victor wouldn't be seperated, Angel and Burt wouldn't have fallen off the tower via the rope, and Fort Irwin would be an upcoming trip rather than a possible final destination for everyone on the helo with Pegs. Everything is Kalanis fault, his daughter was dead the second they took her away from him. I understand his desire to get his daughter back, the fact remains that it never would have happened. He betrayed and killed everyone in the Tower because of his extremely foolish and misplaced hope they would uphold their end of the deal. They were a bunch of murderers, thieves, and backstabbers. Only a fool would believe them.

It's amazing how many people say they'd do anything to keep their child alive. This has no relation to Kalani's situation. Anyone with any sense can see that the second that the Mallers took her away, she was already dead. He had absolutely ZERO chance of saving her life, she was as good as dead. That's the simple fact of life in the We're Alive universe. No matter who he betrayed, who he killed, or what he did she was already dead.

[Ray]

Double post.

[Osiris]

Mutually exclusive. Kalani didn't save a hundred lives after he killed Pippin. Everyone that was in the Tower and is dead now, he and Bill are 100% responsible for. The ENTIRE situation as it stands goes all the way back to Kalani betraying everyone in the Tower. Saul and Victor wouldn't be seperated, Angel and Burt wouldn't have fallen off the tower via the rope, and Fort Irwin would be an upcoming trip rather than a possible final destination for everyone on the helo with Pegs. Everything is Kalanis fault, his daughter was dead the second they took her away from him. I understand his desire to get his daughter back, the fact remains that it never would have happened. He betrayed and killed everyone in the Tower because of his extremely foolish and misplaced hope they would uphold their end of the deal. They were a bunch of murderers, thieves, and backstabbers. Only a fool would believe them.

It's amazing how many people say they'd do anything to keep their child alive. This has no relation to Kalani's situation. Anyone with any sense can see that the second that the Mallers took her away, she was already dead. He had absolutely ZERO chance of saving her life, she was as good as dead. That's the simple fact of life in the We're Alive universe. No matter who he betrayed, who he killed, or what he did she was already dead.

You're completely wrong to say the two concepts are mutually exclusive. Redemption is redemption. Again--and this is important so please pay attention--the only reason you believe that anyone with any sense could see that Hannah was dead the moment she was taken (which has not been confirmed, so you could be very wrong) is because you are privy to knowledge that Kalani was not. If you fail to recognize that your arguments will be based on nothing more than your personal feelings toward the characters and not at all based on divorced, logical examination of the facts in the manner that they are being presented--not to us--to the characters within the confines of the singular perspective of each character in the moment. Simply saying that it is true does not make it so.

[yarri]

Mutually exclusive. Kalani didn't save a hundred lives after he killed Pippin. Everyone that was in the Tower and is dead now, he and Bill are 100% responsible for. The ENTIRE situation as it stands goes all the way back to Kalani betraying everyone in the Tower. Saul and Victor wouldn't be seperated, Angel and Burt wouldn't have fallen off the tower via the rope, and Fort Irwin would be an upcoming trip rather than a possible final destination for everyone on the helo with Pegs. Everything is Kalanis fault, his daughter was dead the second they took her away from him. I understand his desire to get his daughter back, the fact remains that it never would have happened. He betrayed and killed everyone in the Tower because of his extremely foolish and misplaced hope they would uphold their end of the deal. They were a bunch of murderers, thieves, and backstabbers. Only a fool would believe them.

It's amazing how many people say they'd do anything to keep their child alive. This has no relation to Kalani's situation. Anyone with any sense can see that the second that the Mallers took her away, she was already dead. He had absolutely ZERO chance of saving her life, she was as good as dead. That's the simple fact of life in the We're Alive universe. No matter who he betrayed, who he killed, or what he did she was already dead.

Change the word fool to father.. Only a father would believe them. Can you sit there and tell us that if she were your flesh and blood you would have walked away from her? Cause you knew she was in the hands of thieves and murders? She wasn't worth your time to do anything you could to save her?


You're completely wrong to say the two concepts are mutually exclusive. Redemption is redemption. Again--and this is important so please pay attention--the only reason you believe that anyone with any sense could see that Hannah was dead the moment she was taken (which has not been confirmed, so you could be very wrong) is because you are privy to knowledge that Kalani was not. If you fail to recognize that your arguments will be based on nothing more than your personal feelings toward the characters and not at all based on divorced, logical examination of the facts in the manner that they are being presented--not to us--to the characters within the confines of the singular perspective of each character in the moment. Simply saying that it is true does not make it so.


Osiris is 100% right in this situation.

[Ray]

You're completely wrong to say the two concepts are mutually exclusive. Redemption is redemption. Again--and this is important so please pay attention--the only reason you believe that anyone with any sense could see that Hannah was dead the moment she was taken (which has not been confirmed, so you could be very wrong) is because you are privy to knowledge that Kalani was not. If you fail to recognize that your arguments will be based on nothing more than your personal feelings toward the characters and not at all based on divorced, logical examination of the facts in the manner that they are being presented--not to us--to the characters within the confines of the singular perspective of each character in the moment. Simply saying that it is true does not make it so.

Could you please use a legible color for your drivel? It's extremely hard to read what you write. "Divorced, logical examination of the facts" are exactly what I'm going off of. The Mallers (before he knew that's what the other group referred to them as) basically kidnapped him, his daughter and Pippin. They wouldn't release him or his daughter unless he spied on the Tower inhabitants. It's that simple. Anyone with any sense would know that getting roped in with the group that were the Mallers was a losing battle. They kidnapped/kept his daughter against both of their wishes and in exchange for his daughters safety they wanted him to basically infiltrate and effectively destroy the group at the tower with CJ. They told him to go gather information, and when they got overrun they pretty much left him to die. "Better start runnin'" is what Scratch told him. To them, he wasn't worth the trouble of saving since their building was effectively ruined and everyone was at the very high possibility of being killed by the zombies and the guy with the tats. He pleaded with them to tell him how his daughter was when he contacted them from the second Tower. No answer. Yes, the concepts are mutually exclusive. He at no time was looking out for anyone but himself, and foolishly, his daughter. Nothing up to that point gave him any logical indication that his work would result in the release of his daughter, they had already left him to die at the first tower he was in. They used the possibility of getting his daughter back to further manipulate him and the Mallers never told her of her condition or location. Do I believe she was dead before that girl got shot at the golf course? No. I believe that was her at the golf course. What I meant was that she was effectively dead as soon as they were separated. He already knew they were seriously dangerous people as soon as they got back to their strip mall. He had already seen how they treated other people. Only an idiot would think they were any different and that they would uphold their end of the deal. As revealed in his journal they continued to keep him in the dark about his daughter. She was effectively dead by then, not literally. The Mallers gave him ZERO indication that she was alive and that she would be released, and even sent Pippin in to check on him and the situation at the Tower. That's why he murdered Pippin to cover his tracks.

They have nothing to lose by keeping or not keeping her around, Kalani had everything to lose by not doing what they said. Without any evidence she was safe, without any logical reason to believe she would be, he insulted, betrayed and undermined their efforts to escape the wrath of the Mallers and caused the deaths and destruction of the Tower. The Mallers simply attacked them because Pegs shot Latch in self defense. He enabled and encouraged their deaths. It's as simple as that. Those are the facts. I'm tired of your "superior" act and condescending tone. NOTHING the Mallers did gave any indication that they would uphold their end of the deal and they didn't. Anyone that has any sense knows that, in that situation or not. I knew the second it was revealed in his journal that they kept her in exchange for his spying, she was as good as dead. Only a hopeful fool would have believed otherwise. As someone else said, he would have had a better and more reasonable chance had he teamed up with the Tower residents and gone after them to try and save her. He said as much when he talked about getting the helos up and running, he wanted to try and use them to possibly save her. Too little, too late. The Tower residents were willing to attack the Mallers to get back Lizzy, maybe they would have for his daughter as well. Kill two birds with one stone. I know that's nothing more than supposition, but they had demonstrated that they were willing to attack them to get someone back. Kalani is responsible for every death in the Tower since he got there, his own journal tells the story of his betrayal. Those are the facts, not my wishful thinking or my opinion of the man as the character Kalani. Trying to protect his kid was completely stupid and irrational. They were never going to let her go and anyone with any sense knows that. Whether you choose to accept reality or dismiss it like he did doesn't matter, she was never going to make it out of their control alive, especially while he's off running around doing their dirty work and had no way to confirm that she was still alive.

Yes, that question you posed versus what this situation is are mutually exclusive. Kalani didn't kill one dirtbag and then save hundreds. He killed about 25 people to save someone that was effectively dead given who she was captured by and he died in the process without getting anything set right. Your hypothetical situation and this one are absolutely opposite one another. Kalani wasn't in it to save hundreds, he was in it to save one in a situation where she was never going to be saved. If I were him, I'd have recruited everyone I know to go after them and kill as many as possible trying to save her. No one in the Tower was standing in his way and had he tried, they most likely would have stood with him. Instead he chose to betray them and got what he deserved. He cannot be forgiven for doing something so evil. He only stopped the tanker in the end out of guilt, not because he cared for anyone in the Tower. He knew his efforts were for nothing and had no reason to live. Hell, Angel saved his life at least twice and he still talked bad about him.

[Ray]

Change the word fool to father.. Only a father would believe them. Can you sit there and tell us that if she were your flesh and blood you would have walked away from her? Cause you knew she was in the hands of thieves and murders? She wasn't worth your time to do anything you could to save her?

Emotional outbursts will get you nowhere in this with me, "think of the children" is the battle cry of the ignorant and emotionally unstable. I've NEVER said I would leave her to die (you and others have put these words in my mouth, please kindly stop that), I said that Kalani should have known that she was effectively dead as soon as he agreed to spy for them. They never let him talk to her, they never confirmed she was okay, and they were a group of ruthless murderers. What I would have done is gotten the Tower residents to help me attack and kill the Mallers and attempt to get her back. Via a trap, an ambush, whatever. But stupidly running around stabbing people in the back and pleading like a child over the radio got him what? Nothing. His daughter is dead, he is dead and so are the vast majority of the Tower residents. Had he at least tried to get her back, especially since he knew the Tower guys had grenades, claymores, a .50 cal machine gun, and trained Army infantry in his group, they would have had a very good chance of taking them over. Sitting around crying about it and wishing evil people would do the right thing is as stupid as it is deadly. I don't fault him for wanting to get his kid back, I fault him for stupidly going about it the way he did, not realizing the facts about his situation and doing effectively exactly the wrong things to get her back. He did nothing to get her back. Literally. He played along with the game a vicious group of murderers wanted him to and he got what was always coming to him.



Osiris is 100% right in this situation.

No he is not. Everything I've argued with was what the situation was as Kalani saw it. He was with a group of criminals. They were murderers, they kidnapped his daughter and never let him talk to her or confirm that she was even alive the entire time he was off running around. They left him to die at least once. The people that saved him at the risk of their own lives, he viciously and without remorse betrayed and insulted them multiple times. He commented on how they didn't have their shit together like the last place he had been. (The same place that was attacked by Ink and everyone save four were killed. At the Tower? One. Less fortified, less security in place and they came out smelling like a rose.) Asshole. There is no other word for him. Despite them saving his life, he had nothing but bad things to say about them, which he wrote down and made sure they knew about. He KNEW he was wrong, he KNEW he had done the wrong things, he made damn sure they couldn't defend themselves from the same people threatening to kill his daughter and tried to repent for them in the end by revealing what he'd done. He had seen what the Mallers were capable of from the very second he met them. He knew damn well these people were psychotic and dangerous. He did literally nothing to save his daughter other than believe the people that kidnapped her, murdered other people and left him to die at least once were going to uphold their promise. Only an idiot would believe that was even remotely sane and he got a lot of people killed because of it. Father or no father, daughter or no daughter he was a moron and got what was coming to him. It's a shame that he got a lot of good people killed along the way. Desire to save your children isn't an excuse to commit evil and hateful acts, especially when the situation is already fucked up from the start. There was absolutely no way the Mallers were ever going to keep her safe, if he didn't realize that then he's an idiot and so would anyone else be with that mentality (in the We're Alive universe, not here. I realize emotions make people do crazy things but it's no excuse in this case). I respect him for wanting his daughter safe, but the way he went about it doesn't relieve him of his sins. He can never be forgiven for what he did and neither should anyone else that did what he did.

[yarri]

Emotional outbursts will get you nowhere in this with me. I've NEVER said I would leave her to die, I said that Kalani should have known that she was effectively dead as soon as he agreed to spy for them. They never let him talk to her, they never confirmed she was okay, and they were a group of ruthless murderers. What I would have done is gotten the Tower residents to help me attack and kill the Mallers and attempt to get her back. Via a trap, an ambush, whatever. But stupidly running around stabbing people in the back and pleading like a child over the radio got him what? Nothing. His daughter is dead, he is dead and so are the vast majority of the Tower residents. Had he at least tried to get her back, especially since he knew the Tower guys had grenades, claymores, a .50 cal machine gun, and trained Army infantry in his group, they would have had a very good chance of taking them over. Sitting around crying about it and wishing evil people would do the right thing is as stupid as it is deadly. I don't fault him for wanting to get his kid back, I fault him for stupidly going about it the way he did, not realizing the facts about his situation and doing effectively exactly the wrong things to get her back. He did nothing to get her back. Literally. He played along with the game a vicious group of murderers wanted him to and he got what was always coming to him.

Don't read emotion into textual posts. I asked you this question before apparently you missed it. In this situation Kalani didn't know these "tower" folks. Didn't know what they were able to do, or would do for someone like him. They were ill organized stealing from each other and lying to each other. To his eyes they were ineffective and doomed to failure and where did he know they had claymores, grenades and a .50 cal machine gun? Was that before or after the attack on the tower? Michael, Saul and Angel (three "trained" military infantry vs oh what 100 armed murders and thieves.. Now doesn't that sound like a sound and rational battle plan. 3 vs 100 I would say that would be a tad over whelming odds I think they call that in Vegas a suckers bet)

Kalani wasn't a super hero. He was a fat old Hawaiian guy that wanted nothing more then to have the one person he loved his daughter safe. You're assuming he had some prior knowledge or ability to reason out that his daughter was dead. He acted as a human being would.. flawed and with emotion. Like any other parent would faced with this situation.

[sailorangel59]

Wow, I didn't realize a snide remark about killing off an annoying character could lead to such long discussion. I'm just impressed.

[yarri]

Wow, I didn't realize a snide remark about killing off an annoying character could lead to such long discussion. I'm just impressed.


:D its a good thread!

[Ray]

That wasn't judgmental at all. As far your staunch advocacy for the tower being better off without him, well to be honest you're completely wrong. Without Kalani they never would have had the ability to fly.

I'm wrong? I seem to remember that Kalani kept Bill stealing all the ammo a secret, went along with the party idea, started the whole fight by following Scratch's orders to shoot at the ground thereby having the events start that lead to all the water in the tower being used to extinguish the fire that almost engulfed the whole tower. Yes, he did give them the ability to fly, but he also made it necessary for them to need that ability. How you can't connect the facts with the beginning of his appearance with what the end results are is frankly amazing. Could it have played out differently without Kalani there? Could they have needed to leave the tower in search of supplies later on? Of course. It is known fact that the situation with having to fly somewhere to get supplies that they needed was all because of his betrayal. It's literally spelled out in the plot up to this point. They needed water because he directly caused them to not be able to defend themselves from the Maller attack. How can you not see this? Are you choosing to ignore it? Are you trying to be philosophical about Kalani? The situation may have played out differently, yes. That is true. The way it is now goes straight back to Kalani's actions. All of it. They were weakened severely from the attack that Kalani orchestrated behind the scenes and it was necessary for them to fly out. Even as he was teaching Pegs to fly, he was still plotting against and insulting the Tower residents. Having a sudden change of heart right at the end doesn't relieve him of the fact that his actions lead to the deaths of everyone in the Tower and it's complete destruction. Would you forgive this man if he had killed the majority of the people you had known? Would you forgive him for destroying the one safe place you had literally bled to make? I couldn't, because everything I had would stand a very good chance of being just fine if he had never come around.

[yarri]

I'm wrong? I seem to remember that Kalani kept Bill stealing all the ammo a secret, went along with the party idea, started the whole fight by following Scratch's orders to shoot at the ground thereby having the events start that lead to all the water in the tower being used to extinguish the fire that almost engulfed the whole tower. Yes, he did give them the ability to fly, but he also made it necessary for them to need that ability. How you can't connect the facts with the beginning of his appearance with what the end results are is frankly amazing. Could it have played out differently without Kalani there? Could they have needed to leave the tower in search of supplies later on? Of course. It is known fact that the situation with having to fly somewhere to get supplies that they needed was all because of his betrayal. It's literally spelled out in the plot up to this point. They needed water because he directly caused them to not be able to defend themselves from the Maller attack. How can you not see this? Are you choosing to ignore it? Are you trying to be philosophical about Kalani? The situation may have played out differently, yes. That is true. The way it is now goes straight back to Kalani's actions. All of it. They were weakened severely from the attack that Kalani orchestrated behind the scenes and it was necessary for them to fly out. Even as he was teaching Pegs to fly, he was still plotting against and insulting the Tower residents. Having a sudden change of heart right at the end doesn't relieve him of the fact that his actions lead to the deaths of everyone in the Tower and it's complete destruction. Would you forgive this man if he had killed the majority of the people you had known? Would you forgive him for destroying the one safe place you had literally bled to make? I couldn't, because everything I had would stand a very good chance of being just fine if he had never come around.

Knowing Bill took the ammo does not equal knowing the contents of the armory.The tower was going to fall that was the 2nd attack they had had.. They had crap for defenses they were living on borrowed time.

[Ray]

Don't read emotion into textual posts. I asked you this question before apparently you missed it. In this situation Kalani didn't know these "tower" folks. Didn't know what they were able to do, or would do for someone like him. They were ill organized stealing from each other and lying to each other. To his eyes they were ineffective and doomed to failure and where did he know they had claymores, grenades and a .50 cal machine gun? Was that before or after the attack on the tower? Michael, Saul and Angel (three "trained" military infantry vs oh what 100 armed murders and thieves.. Now doesn't that sound like a sound and rational battle plan. 3 vs 100 I would say that would be a tad over whelming odds I think they call that in Vegas a suckers bet)

Kalani wasn't a super hero. He was a fat old Hawaiian guy that wanted nothing more then to have the one person he loved his daughter safe. You're assuming he had some prior knowledge or ability to reason out that his daughter was dead. He acted as a human being would.. flawed and with emotion. Like any other parent would faced with this situation.

You asked me twice, and then inserted words into my mouth the second time. He saw them as disorganized and ineffective at first, when they proved their effectiveness later, he still plotted against them. He never once said anything about being grateful they didn't leave his fat ass to die at the arena, and even after Angel saved his life everyone "became somewhat tolerable" according to him. Save his life, he doesn't like the way you conduct operations even while on his own stupid plan and they're barely tolerable to him? Worthless. Completely worthless.

I would take two of my Marines against untrained prisoners any day of the week. The Tower guys were better armed and better trained. Sheer numbers are one way to assure you never succeed. Hell, they only succeeded attacking them the first time because of Kalani making sure they had no ammo. The Mallers had nothing more than pistols and ladders when they attacked so they were no better armed than the Tower guys anyway. I'll forgive you for thinking that 3 vs 100 is a stupid plan, you've obviously never been exposed to the military or military tactics. Even 3 Army infantry would be a match directing 25 other people, and don't forget that they had given proper training to alot of the other people in the Tower as well.

No Kalani wasn't a super hero. I'm not assuming anything about him being able to reason that his daughter was dead, I'm saying that he was a complete moron for even trying to work with the Mallers in their agreement to keep his daughter alive. He was as dangerous as he was stupid. It's a shame he got so many other people killed on his foolish quest to get his daughter back by doing exactly the wrong things. He acted as a stupid human would, not everyone would choose such an idiotic way to save someone. You're assuming that any other parent would betray everyone around them to save murderous criminals from saving your kid when you have superior firepower, superior mobility, super training and loyal people to your cause. He had everything at his disposal to make an attack with an extremely high chance of success and instead trusted murderers to not kill his daughter. They gave him at least 10 reasons and demonstrations of their apathy towards even his safety to show that they would honor the deal. Like I said, had he not been a moron he would have known that murderers don't typically uphold their word and he had literally 30 people that could have helped with a very very good chance of getting her back. Instead he chose the path that got himself, his daughter, and many others killed.

You've said friends after family and you'd do anything or kill anyone to keep your kid safe right? Family above all else? Did it ever occur to you that those around you just might be willing to help you get them back? Did it ever occur to you that one against many (as you pointed out above) can and usually is a foolish endeavor? I figured that most people were smart enough to realize that you've got more guns, better people, better training and more mobility is better than trying to negotiate with a murderer. Instead of being all emotional and heroic, maybe he should have asked for help and so should you or anyone else that thinks his actions were the right ones or justified.

[Ray]

Knowing Bill took the ammo does not equal knowing the contents of the armory.The tower was going to fall that was the 2nd attack they had had.. They had crap for defenses they were living on borrowed time.

What difference does it make what ammo he knows he has taken away from them when he knows he has it all? He even confirms it multiple times (to Scratch over the radio while on duty) and tells them what weapons that they do have ammo for, although no a lot thanks to him. That's a completely moot point. The crap defenses was specifically because of what Kalani and Bill had done to the tower residents the first time the Mallers attacked. They expended ammo they shouldn't have needed to, had they not been betrayed by Bill and Kalani, and lost their entire water supply to extinguishing the fire. They had to stretch themselves really thin to make up for all those wasted supplies and ammo from the first fight. Everything in your comment can be logically traced back to what Kalani did. Do you understand the meaning of cause and effect?

Can no one in this thread see past the end of their nose? The whole point of any story is to set up events and then continue to story based on what's happened and continues to happen! All present events can be traced all the way back, factually and logically, to when Kalani showed up. His journal spells out everything he did for FSM sake. It's right there in the story!

[yarri]

You asked me twice, and then inserted words into my mouth the second time. He saw them as disorganized and ineffective at first, when they proved their effectiveness later, he still plotted against them. He never once said anything about being grateful they didn't leave his fat ass to die at the arena, and even after Angel saved his life everyone "became somewhat tolerable" according to him. Save his life, he doesn't like the way you conduct operations even while on his own stupid plan and they're barely tolerable to him? Worthless. Completely worthless.
.


I would take two of my Marines against untrained prisoners any day of the week. The Tower guys were better armed and better trained. Sheer numbers are one way to assure you never succeed. Hell, they only succeeded attacking them the first time because of Kalani making sure they had no ammo. The Mallers had nothing more than pistols and ladders when they attacked so they were no better armed than the Tower guys anyway. I'll forgive you for thinking that 3 vs 100 is a stupid plan, you've obviously never been exposed to the military or military tactics. Even 3 Army infantry would be a match directing 25 other people, and don't forget that they had given proper training to alot of the other people in the Tower as well.
It wasn't Kalani insuring they had no ammo that was Bill. murderers to not kill his daughter. They gave him at least 10 reasons and demonstrations of their apathy towards even his safety to show that they would honor the deal. Like I said, had he not been a moron he would have known that murderers don't typically uphold their word and he had literally 30 people that could have helped with a very very good chance of getting her back. Instead he chose the path that got himself, his daughter, and many others killed.

You've said friends after family and you'd do anything or kill anyone to keep your kid safe right? Family above all else? Did it ever occur to you that those around you just might be willing to help you get them back? Did it ever occur to you that one against many (as you pointed out above) can and usually is a foolish endeavor? I figured that most people were smart enough to realize that you've got more guns, better people, better training and more mobility is better than trying to negotiate with a murderer. Instead of being all emotional and heroic, maybe he should have asked for help and so should you or anyone else that thinks his actions were the right ones or justified.[/QUOTE]

1. I never inserted words in your mouth
2. I'm military so your forgiveness isn't required.
3. 100 to 3 odds is still a suckers bet no matter how well you are armed unless your Batman. :D Are you Batman? The majority of that tower were direct-able but poorly trained.
I'll answer the rest of this in the am I have to go to work Have a good night

4. To assume that the convicts of Eastern Bay were "untrained" is pure arrogance.
Eastern bay prison houses hardened criminals not white collar guys that cheated on their taxes to quote Burt (lady and the tink part 2 about the 3:02mark) I'm confident that the convicts at Eastern Bay know how to use a gun, wield a knife and practice the fine art of beating someone to death with any random object that comes to hand.

5. My MOS I was Logistics I've ordered, inventoried and maintained everything from ammo to F18 wings and everything in between. The fact that the armory wasn't checked on a daily basis and every bullet eye balled to see if the shine was still glowing bright smacks of a serious break in the chain of command. The fact that guys like you had bullets to fire in what ever military engagement you were in was because of folks like me doing my job. Someone in that tower wasn't doing their job. It would have taken time to move an armory of that size by one person. That means whom ever was maintaining that Armory aka BURT and who ever was on watch aka EVERYONE else fell asleep at the wheel.

(:D now that last part could be termed an emotional outburst.. maybe. nah.. not really. I'm tired I get a little freaky when I'm this tired )

[Osiris]

You lose all credibility right then and there. Congrats, you've joined the ranks of amateur trolls. <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Were that true, you would be acknowledging the simple fact that you are seeing a...

[Osiris]

Wow, I didn't realize a snide remark about killing off an annoying character could lead to such long discussion. I'm just impressed.

The fans have passion.

[Osiris]

I'm wrong? I seem to remember that Kalani kept Bill stealing all the ammo a secret, went along with the party idea, started the whole fight by following Scratch's orders to shoot at the ground thereby having the events start that lead to all the water in the tower being used to extinguish the fire that almost engulfed the whole tower. Yes, he did give them the ability to fly, but he also made it necessary for them to need that ability. How you can't connect the facts with the beginning of his appearance with what the end results are is frankly amazing. Could it have played out differently without Kalani there? Could they have needed to leave the tower in search of supplies later on? Of course. It is known fact that the situation with having to fly somewhere to get supplies that they needed was all because of his betrayal. It's literally spelled out in the plot up to this point. They needed water because he directly caused them to not be able to defend themselves from the Maller attack. How can you not see this? Are you choosing to ignore it? Are you trying to be philosophical about Kalani? The situation may have played out differently, yes. That is true. The way it is now goes straight back to Kalani's actions. All of it. They were weakened severely from the attack that Kalani orchestrated behind the scenes and it was necessary for them to fly out. Even as he was teaching Pegs to fly, he was still plotting against and insulting the Tower residents. Having a sudden change of heart right at the end doesn't relieve him of the fact that his actions lead to the deaths of everyone in the Tower and it's complete destruction. Would you forgive this man if he had killed the majority of the people you had known? Would you forgive him for destroying the one safe place you had literally bled to make? I couldn't, because everything I had would stand a very good chance of being just fine if he had never come around.

I love this guy. It's like he's known the entire plot of the story since the first episode. Obvious troll is obvious. Still entertaining.

[Eviebae]

What does "give him a pass" mean? Forgive him? Like him? Understand him? Think he was correct?

[shiroidenkou1994]

You've made this comparison of your own volition. My response poses a diametrically opposed viewpoint and suddenly the two are mutually exclusive? Your lack of ability to argue a point is beyond amazing. I've explained the this adequately, considering your 'argument' is based entirely on one point: omniscience. It is, therefore invalid.

*Drops the mic. Walks away*


Bullshit. Ray didn't make the comparison. I did, and if you'll notice, we are not the same person. Yes, I agree that Ray's argumentative abilities are lacking, and he seems to be using 'mutually exclusive' in the wrong way. It's not that the ideas are mutually exclusive, they're just not the same. *He's arguing badly, but alas, he isn't me. I'm glad you dropped the mic and walked away, if that's the level of attention you're willing to pay to this argument. If you don't care, go home.

Now that we've gotten that clarification out of the way, on to my main point:


I'll grant that while we--as outsiders looking in--may have known that Hannah was going to end up taking a dirt nap, it wouldn't have been possible for Kalani to ascertain that he had lost her for good. *Even if the thought had crossed his mind, the thought of getting her back trumps all else. *I think it's necessary to take knowledge through stunted omniscience out of the equation and look at it from a far more limited perspective: Dad's. *If you do that, it's impossible to think you could simply write her off as dead and not bother following the kidnapper's demands to get her back. *

Also, the only person that Kalani technically murdered was Pippin, the guy there to flip the tables on Kalani, sell him out and take over the mission. *The rest is collateral damage. *That said, I flip your last statement. *Would you give a pass to someone who murdered one piece of shit and saved hundreds of lives afterwards?*


I disagree. If Kalani wanted his daughter back, even if he was inexcusably stupid, and he thought she was still alive, he should have seen that setting up the Mallers was his best bet, and it would've been a great option if he had the chance with the first group.

Kalani killed the others just as much as someone who hires an assassin killed the target of the assassination. He didn't pull the trigger, but he intentionally got them killed.*

For your reversal of my hypothetical scenario, no. I don't give that person a pass. Murder (except with extremely rare extenuating circumstances) is a really shitty thing to do. Ethically, the life-saving is wholly unrelated to the murder. They are separate and don't cancel out, just as a matter particle and an antimatter particle (or a million antimatter particles, for that matter) don't annihilate each other when they are separated by any distance. When they collide, though, it's a different story. If, for example, you kill someone to save your own life, the matter and antimatter (unethical and ethical) collide and annihilate, leaving you with a 'pass.' Unless, of course, there's another way that would be readily visible and feasible. Like if somebody was trying to kill you and you incapacitated them in some way, but then you beat them to death, that's not a 'pass.' If there was another way and it's infeasible that you'd see it, though, it's potentially a 'pass.'

Even if Kalani was an irredeemable idiot, he should've seen another, better way. So no, it's not a 'pass.'

[yarri]

Bullshit. Ray didn't make the comparison. I did, and if you'll notice, we are not the same person. Yes, I agree that Ray's argumentative abilities are lacking, and he seems to be using 'mutually exclusive' in the wrong way. It's not that the ideas are mutually exclusive, they're just not the same. *He's arguing badly, but alas, he isn't me. I'm glad you dropped the mic and walked away, if that's the level of attention you're willing to pay to this argument. If you don't care, go home.

Now that we've gotten that clarification out of the way, on to my main point:



I disagree. If Kalani wanted his daughter back, even if he was inexcusably stupid, and he thought she was still alive, he should have seen that setting up the Mallers was his best bet, and it would've been a great option if he had the chance with the first group.

Kalani killed the others just as much as someone who hires an assassin killed the target of the assassination. He didn't pull the trigger, but he intentionally got them killed.*

For your reversal of my hypothetical scenario, no. I don't give that person a pass. Murder (except with extremely rare extenuating circumstances) is a really shitty thing to do. Ethically, the life-saving is wholly unrelated to the murder. They are separate and don't cancel out, just as a matter particle and an antimatter particle (or a million antimatter particles, for that matter) don't annihilate each other when they are separated by any distance. When they collide, though, it's a different story. If, for example, you kill someone to save your own life, the matter and antimatter (unethical and ethical) collide and annihilate, leaving you with a 'pass.' Unless, of course, there's another way that would be readily visible and feasible. Like if somebody was trying to kill you and you incapacitated them in some way, but then you beat them to death, that's not a 'pass.' If there was another way and it's infeasible that you'd see it, though, it's potentially a 'pass.'

Even if Kalani was an irredeemable idiot, he should've seen another, better way. So no, it's not a 'pass.'



Set up the folks that have a gun pointed at the head of his daughter. In the hopes that three trained solders (I should rate it 2.5 as Angel had no logged combat time) and a handful of untrained civilians can go and rescue her in one piece against a much larger group of better trained (and if you assume the maulers weren't trained in the use of how to shoot a gun, use a knife or bludgeon someone to death I will politely and respectfully request you remember that Eastern Bay was the prison for the worst offenders of the worst. Not your tax avoiding white collar criminal types but the sort of convicts that make anyone that they get a hold of pray for death.

I'm tired. I'll be back later

[yarri]

What does "give him a pass" mean? Forgive him? Like him? Understand him? Think he was correct?

I took it as believe he was redeemed for his sins..

[jayhel]

I don't think Kalani was in a position to trust anyone period. He had no obligation to people he just met over that of his daughter so I don't think he's a bad guy for manipulating those he encountered for her sake. Even if he knew the Mallers were ex-convicts and probably going to murder Hannah any way, in that position all he could do was hope that they wouldn't murder her by doing what he was asked. Maybe he thought he could do his task SO well that he would be rewarded with her life. I think it's clear once he started to see the true nature of the Mallers, he realized the gravity of his actions and sacrificed himself to rectify those deeds.

I'm not saying it isn't controversial, but he gets a pass from me.

[Osiris]

What does "give him a pass" mean? Forgive him? Like him? Understand him? Think he was correct?

I think it's kind of like... has he redeemed himself through his final actions--you know, helping Pegs learn to fly, giving the Tower a way out, and finally, taking one for the team. I could be way off on that, but that's what I read into the question. Maybe it's about a hall pass. Or a lift pass.

[awkwardalex]

Personally, i do NOT think he gets a pass because when h called the mallers to the tower he did not even ask if hannah was alive, or for proof. Yes scratch could have not given proof to him but he could have tried then i would have forgiven him.

[Osiris]

Personally, i do NOT think he gets a pass because when h called the mallers to the tower he did not even ask if hannah was alive, or for proof. Yes scratch could have not given proof to him but he could have tried then i would have forgiven him.

That does seem like a strange oversight. I'm not sure we'll ever know the reason behind that, unless of course, Kc decides to give us the skinny on it...

*crosses fingers*

[reaper239]

Personally, i do NOT think he gets a pass because when h called the mallers to the tower he did not even ask if hannah was alive, or for proof. Yes scratch could have not given proof to him but he could have tried then i would have forgiven him.

wait, which tower? if it was his first then he was a little panicked, but had no real reason to doubt that she was still alive atm. if THE tower he did ask at the end of the transmission

[mem]

Kilani

1. he made others dead as sh*t
2. he's dead as sh*t (or so i think)
3. the end

trying to determine the relative humidity of the tower or what curtains were in bill's apartment (or other random hey let's make sure all the i's are dotted adn t's are castrated stuff) is just stuff

4. i dont really care either way but i just wanted to post in the midst of all this arguing and stuff. i'll go back to finger painting now. thanks

[yarri]

Kilani

1. he made others dead as sh*t
2. he's dead as sh*t (or so i think)
3. the end

trying to determine the relative humidity of the tower or what curtains were in bill's apartment (or other random hey let's make sure all the i's are dotted adn t's are castrated stuff) is just stuff

4. i dont really care either way but i just wanted to post in the midst of all this arguing and stuff. i'll go back to finger painting now. thanks

I <3 you mem. Your words always brighten my day. :)

[Osiris]

Kilani

1. he made others dead as sh*t
2. he's dead as sh*t (or so i think)
3. the end

trying to determine the relative humidity of the tower or what curtains were in bill's apartment (or other random hey let's make sure all the i's are dotted adn t's are castrated stuff) is just stuff

4. i dont really care either way but i just wanted to post in the midst of all this arguing and stuff. i'll go back to finger painting now. thanks

Did Bill's apartment have humid curtains?

[sailorangel59]

Did Bill's apartment have humid curtains?

Yeah, right next to the Pressure Wash Sofa, and the singing Bass fish on the wall.

[Osiris]

Yeah, right next to the Pressure Wash Sofa, and the singing Bass fish on the wall.

#ShitIDidNotKnow

[mem]

i picture the curtains in bills apartment having corn on them like marge simpsons

http://www.giddygirlie.com/curtains.jpg

[JambaJuicer111]

unlike most people, i always liked kalani, but i still wouldnt give him a pass, i mean, yes i understand hed do anything to get hannah back, but dude... he could have talked to michael about it, knowing michael, hed definately at least give it more than a little thought hed probably even plan a rescue for lizzy and hannah. i dont think lizzy is pregnant, i think they have hannah still. like Kc said "...there is such a thing as hair dye."

[yarri]

unlike most people, i always liked kalani, but i still wouldnt give him a pass, i mean, yes i understand hed do anything to get hannah back, but dude... he could have talked to michael about it, knowing michael, hed definately at least give it more than a little thought hed probably even plan a rescue for lizzy and hannah. i dont think lizzy is pregnant, i think they have hannah still. like Kc said "...there is such a thing as hair dye."

I will point out that Kalani didn't really know Michael and the tower folks. They also didn't give a good show of themselves at first (lying, cheating, stealing poor command etc etc you know the drill) and by the time they did it was to late.

[Osiris]

I remember when this thread turned.

[trubkir]

No, they died specifically because of Kalani. HE killed every single person that has died because of the attack by the mallers. Had he not lead them there, had he not betrayed them, had he not made damn sure that they couldn't fight back they all died. Would they have died later on? Maybe. All we know is that they ARE dead because of the actions of Kalani. Yes, protect your child and all, but only a moron would think that they Mallers would hold up their end of the deal. Kalani was stupid for believing they would and because of that everything that sits now is because of him. He can never be forgiven for what he did, fighting for his daughter or not. The second they took Hanna away from him, she was as good as dead. Only an idiot (in his shoes, not anyone here) would think otherwise and his actions are the sole reason everyone that is dead or missing is gone. The only reason. Crashing the helo into the rig wasn't because of his desire to save everyone, he said that he barely tolerated everyone even after all the work they were doing to try and save as many people as they could. Kalani was looking out for himself and Hanna the whole time, no one else. Thinking he could save Hanna was complete stupidity. He saw how they treated everyone and for cripes sake they were all murders and violent criminals, how could he possibly think they would hold up their end of the deal? He saw first hand what they were capable of, Scratch was hell bent on killing every single one of the Tower residents because Pegs killed her brother in self defense. Scratch attacked innocent people and they merely defended themselves and she goes on a murderous rampage. Kalani should have known right then that Hanna was as good as dead. He was an irrational, idiotic, backstabbing moron and he deserved what he got. Good riddance to him, they were vastly better off before he showed up. Hell, they saved his life at the risk of their own at the Arena and he paid them back with betrayal. Kid or no kid, he was a dangerous idiot that got almost everyone killed while insulting them and plotting behind their backs. He justly died, but he should have suffered for it in the process.

I couldn't agree with you more. The time to save your child is when the threat arises. In the car was his best chance. If you are being abducted in a crisis how can you make an assumption that going with the abductors is the best course of action?

[yarri]

I couldn't agree with you more. The time to save your child is when the threat arises. In the car was his best chance. If you are being abducted in a crisis how can you make an assumption that going with the abductors is the best course of action?


so you write the child off... "sorry honey but daddy missed his chance. I hope you die fast?"

[Osiris]

Get abducted and let me know how you deal with the situation. Totally unarmed and completely unprepared to handle the situation. :hsugh:

[trubkir]

Get abducted and let me know how you deal with the situation. Totally unarmed and completely unprepared to handle the situation. :hsugh:

That isn't the argument. As I understand this thread we are discussing whether Kalani gets a pass. I say no because he did nothing at the point of attack and he fully realized the gravity of the situation he had got into as evidenced by his "Awww shit". He did nothing then but sit back and let the situation get worse. If "he would do anything for his Hannah" then why did he do nothing. He is a coward and I disliked his fat, whiny, self important ass right from the time he attempted suicide in the arena.

[7oddisdead]

Hmm...so crashing a plane in a city that is not your own..running for your life from a horde of undead that you see eat the people you were just flying with hop a fence even though you are not in any physical shape to do so and luckily meet a car and take that to what you see as your advantage. Then the people in the car draw down on you...and you sit there and take it..

Nothing about that reads as cowardly to me....way i see I...im in a car..and for the moment..im safe

[Osiris]

That isn't the argument. As I understand this thread we are discussing whether Kalani gets a pass. I say no because he did nothing at the point of attack and he fully realized the gravity of the situation he had got into as evidenced by his "Awww shit". He did nothing then but sit back and let the situation get worse. If "he would do anything for his Hannah" then why did he do nothing. He is a coward and I disliked his fat, whiny, self important ass right from the time he attempted suicide in the arena.

Because you're new here, I'm going to extend the courtesy of not arguing this point with you as I have with anyone else willing to step into the ring. There is a lengthy thread around somewhere that covers 99% of what you could think of as far as arguments for and against. :) Welcome to the boards and enjoy your stay! :)


Hmm...so crashing a plane in a city that is not your own..running for your life from a horde of undead that you see eat the people you were just flying with hop a fence even though you are not in any physical shape to do so and luckily meet a car and take that to what you see as your advantage. Then the people in the car draw down on you...and you sit there and take it..

Nothing about that reads as cowardly to me....way i see I...im in a car..and for the moment..im safe

^^this.










































































































SEE!? I was totally civil there!!!!

[trubkir]

As Crash Davis says in Bull Durham "The moment is over meat". As soon as he sees that the weapon is out and that the weapon is a threat it is time for action. I don't care if Kalani is fat. I don't care if Kalani has no training. I don't care if Kalani is tired, unarmed and in a foreign environment. He is in a situation that calls for action. Instead he sits on his expansive behind, lets Scratch take him to the mall where he has absolutely no chance. Kalani then writes "I would do anything for my child." This is the contradiction I take umbrage with. If he would do anything then fight when you have the chance even if the odds are slim. I think that this lack of action shows up as guilt later as he calls Micheal, Saul and Angel "macho" and flattens the tire on the hummer on the way out the gate during the food run to the base. I digress. Later in the story line he is in the arena, and let me reiterate "I would do anything for my child", so he promptly tries to kill himself to alleviate the pain he feels for what is happening to Hannah. The worst kind of cowardice. He is still conscious enough to hear Datu's arrival and communicate with him but magically can't stay awake help dig through the wall. In my opinion he plays dead and sacrifices Samantha then again has the magical ability to wake up just in time to be rescued. Simply stated he has done nothing to earn the pass from me

[trubkir]

I can agree to disagree

[trubkir]

New to posting I guess. Started listening during Season 1 when the podcast was at Chapter 5 part 2 of 3

[7oddisdead]

And as Kenny Rogers said

Ya gotta know when to hold em..know when to fold em..know when to walk away...etc. Given the situation in the car..i would think of the risks involved with what if I got shot...what would happen to her then?

Surprisingly...he does not get a pass from me either..love the guy..but some things can't be forgiven.

[yarri]

And as Kenny Rogers said

Ya gotta know when to hold em..know when to fold em..know when to walk away...etc. Given the situation in the car..i would think of the risks involved with what if I got shot...what would happen to her then?

Surprisingly...he does not get a pass from me either..love the guy..but some things can't be forgiven.
We can Agree to disagree but kalani is human he's not a solder or superman he did what he knew how to do.

[trubkir]

And as Kenny Rogers said

Ya gotta know when to hold em..know when to fold em..know when to walk away...etc. Given the situation in the car..i would think of the risks involved with what if I got shot...what would happen to her then?

Surprisingly...he does not get a pass from me either..love the guy..but some things can't be forgiven.

This is my main sticking point. If he would do anything why didn't he take the risk?

[yarri]

This is my main sticking point. If he would do anything why didn't he take the risk?

Cause an unarmed untrained man vs a gun is a fool Kalani was not a fool.

[7oddisdead]

Cause an unarmed untrained man vs a gun is a fool Kalani was not a fool.

exactly

But all this is a moot point...its just opinions..we all have opinions they are bound to be different..if not this forum would be pretty damn boring

[yarri]

exactly

But all this is a moot point...its just opinions..we all have opinions they are bound to be different..if not this forum would be pretty damn boring

Thank you for the voice of reason lol

[Osiris]

New to posting I guess. Started listening during Season 1 when the podcast was at Chapter 5 part 2 of 3

:) Don't worry about it man. You'll get used to me.

[yarri]

:) Don't worry about it man. You'll get used to me.

I did !

[mem]

Get abducted and let me know how you deal with the situation. Totally unarmed and completely unprepared to handle the situation. :hsugh:

Abductions are cool btw. Living in the south and at one time a trailer park. It happened all the time. Hell it was more fun talking about the abduction than all the damn tornadoes that hit the trailer park. It was more fun than getting laid at the family reunion i tell ya ! *tunes banjo*

[VEE]

He killed Pippin, and we should all be ever grateful for that.

[mem]

He killed Pippin, and we should all be ever grateful for that.

now you got me liking him more than I did :yay:

[Osiris]

Abductions are cool btw. Living in the south and at one time a trailer park. It happened all the time. Hell it was more fun talking about the abduction than all the damn tornadoes that hit the trailer park. It was more fun than getting laid at the family reunion i tell ya ! *tunes banjo*

http://smiliesftw.com/x/inoutroflpuke.gif

[Nate Eeez]

The world is ending. The rules have changed. But there is always hope. Just as we all hope (maybe all of us) who listen to this story that our favorite characters will make it out alive. Any parent holds out hope that their child who has been abducted is still alive and not buried in a shallow grave in some pedophile's backyard. As a father, who is also untrained about what to do when held and forced to do something at gun point, I understand Kalani's motives and would have done the same with that hope (however delusional) that I would get to see my child again.
If giving him a pass means forgiving him, then I give him a pass.

[reaper239]

The world is ending. The rules have changed. But there is always hope. Just as we all hope (maybe all of us) who listen to this story that our favorite characters will make it out alive. Any parent holds out hope that their child who has been abducted is still alive and not buried in a shallow grave in some pedophile's backyard. As a father, who is also untrained about what to do when held and forced to do something at gun point, I understand Kalani's motives and would have done the same with that hope (however delusional) that I would get to see my child again.
If giving him a pass means forgiving him, then I give him a pass.

that's a good point, as a father you want to protect your children, so with this situation in mind (which happens even outside of the zombie apocalypse on the southern US border as one example) will anyone go out and seek some kind of training on how to defend themselves and their families, whether with firearms, a knife, or even knowing how to disarm an enemy? it's an interesting thing to think about: criminals don't care about laws, and they are every where, so the question now is that with this brought to the forefront, will anyone do something about their relative unpreparedness? i know i will certainly be taking some self defense classes and firearm training and the like to ensure that i am prepared to defend myself and my loved ones should the need arise.

[Osiris]

The world is ending. The rules have changed. But there is always hope. Just as we all hope (maybe all of us) who listen to this story that our favorite characters will make it out alive. Any parent holds out hope that their child who has been abducted is still alive and not buried in a shallow grave in some pedophile's backyard. As a father, who is also untrained about what to do when held and forced to do something at gun point, I understand Kalani's motives and would have done the same with that hope (however delusional) that I would get to see my child again.
If giving him a pass means forgiving him, then I give him a pass.


This is truth.

[Osiris]

that's a good point, as a father you want to protect your children, so with this situation in mind (which happens even outside of the zombie apocalypse on the southern US border as one example) will anyone go out and seek some kind of training on how to defend themselves and their families, whether with firearms, a knife, or even knowing how to disarm an enemy? it's an interesting thing to think about: criminals don't care about laws, and they are every where, so the question now is that with this brought to the forefront, will anyone do something about their relative unpreparedness? i know i will certainly be taking some self defense classes and firearm training and the like to ensure that i am prepared to defend myself and my loved ones should the need arise.

Ever shot at someone? Or been shot at yourself? Training is one thing. Reality can be quite another.

[yarri]

Ever shot at someone? Or been shot at yourself? Training is one thing. Reality can be quite another.

But with training it reduces the chance of freezing in an armed conflict and or shooting your own foot off. I'd rather take the chance then watch my family members assaulted in a home invasion.. which unfortunately happens way to much in this country. (4 doors from my father's place in Portland an older couple were beaten half to death by an armed group of thugs that robbed them)

[Osiris]

But with training it reduces the chance of freezing in an armed conflict and or shooting your own foot off. I'd rather take the chance then watch my family members assaulted in a home invasion.. which unfortunately happens way to much in this country. (4 doors from my father's place in Portland an older couple were beaten half to death by an armed group of thugs that robbed them)

Yeah, that sort of thing is common where I live as well. I've been shot at. I've had my house shot at. I've been in a variety of armed conflicts with individuals and I've watched people (with training) curl into the fetal position and cry for their mothers. Stress affects EVERYONE differently, and just because you may have training with a weapon doesn't mean you're going to react to the stress any different. I've also seen people who are untrained handle themselves as if they had done 9 tours in a jungle somewhere in Vietnam. All training means is that you are familiar with the equipment you are using and have a relative calmness when you are faced with situations like 'shit, it's jammed' or 'I need to reload'. The only thing that will prepare you for having a gun shoved in your face is having a gun shoved in your face by someone who wants to use it on you. For the record, yes I have had a gun shoved in my face by someone I was certain intended to use it. One of the scariest moments of my life.

[yarri]

Yeah, that sort of thing is common where I live as well. I've been shot at. I've had my house shot at. I've been in a variety of armed conflicts with individuals and I've watched people (with training) curl into the fetal position and cry for their mothers. Stress affects EVERYONE differently, and just because you may have training with a weapon doesn't mean you're going to react to the stress any different. I've also seen people who are untrained handle themselves as if they had done 9 tours in a jungle somewhere in Vietnam. All training means is that you are familiar with the equipment you are using and have a relative calmness when you are faced with situations like 'shit, it's jammed' or 'I need to reload'. The only thing that will prepare you for having a gun shoved in your face is having a gun shoved in your face by someone who wants to use it on you. For the record, yes I have had a gun shoved in my face by someone I was certain intended to use it. One of the scariest moments of my life.

I thought Canada was safer then the U.S. HOLY shit!

[yarri]

Yeah, that sort of thing is common where I live as well. I've been shot at. I've had my house shot at. I've been in a variety of armed conflicts with individuals and I've watched people (with training) curl into the fetal position and cry for their mothers. Stress affects EVERYONE differently, and just because you may have training with a weapon doesn't mean you're going to react to the stress any different. I've also seen people who are untrained handle themselves as if they had done 9 tours in a jungle somewhere in Vietnam. All training means is that you are familiar with the equipment you are using and have a relative calmness when you are faced with situations like 'shit, it's jammed' or 'I need to reload'. The only thing that will prepare you for having a gun shoved in your face is having a gun shoved in your face by someone who wants to use it on you. For the record, yes I have had a gun shoved in my face by someone I was certain intended to use it. One of the scariest moments of my life.

I thought Canada was safer then the U.S. HOLY shit!

[Nate Eeez]

Yeah, it's more about experience than training. Grow up in a rough neighborhood or family, you develop skills to survive in that environment. You develop relationships. Your family. Friends you consider family. Bonds through similar struggles. It can be about "ownership". What's mine, you can't have and I'll do whatever I have to to keep it safe and keep it mine. You take it from me I'll do whatever I have to do to get it back. That's a basic instinct for survival. Some people have a stronger instinct than others.

[Osiris]

Yeah, it's more about experience than training. Grow up in a rough neighborhood or family, you develop skills to survive in that environment. You develop relationships. Your family. Friends you consider family. Bonds through similar struggles. It can be about "ownership". What's mine, you can't have and I'll do whatever I have to to keep it safe and keep it mine. You take it from me I'll do whatever I have to do to get it back. That's a basic instinct for survival. Some people have a stronger instinct than others.

holla

[trubkir]

Your arguments still haven't changed my stance on not giving Kalani a pass. I understand and accept the parental aspect of your arguments and I will accept them up to a point. What would your stance be, for the tower people, if Kalani had been outed as the rat and they forced him out or shot him on the spot? I also have another question. If Kalani is touted as being a good father and doing anything for his daughter is Samantha a scum because she bailed on Hope? I have to admit I am slanted because Kalani rubbed me the wrong way right from his introduction.

[trubkir]

I thought Canada was safer then the U.S. HOLY shit!

The safety thing is probably about the same. I think Canada just has a better advertising agency :)

[Osiris]

Your arguments still haven't changed my stance on not giving Kalani a pass. I understand and accept the parental aspect of your arguments and I will accept them up to a point. What would your stance be, for the tower people, if Kalani had been outed as the rat and they forced him out or shot him on the spot? I also have another question. If Kalani is touted as being a good father and doing anything for his daughter is Samantha a scum because she bailed on Hope? I have to admit I am slanted because Kalani rubbed me the wrong way right from his introduction.

Personally, I am not trying to sway your stance on whether or not Kalani gets a pass. Too each his own. Nobody could ever sway my feelings about Scratch, no matter how hard they try--and believe me, I've read some serious novel length posts that have tried. Kudos for sticking to your guns. If the residents of the Tower had outed Kalani and either expelled or executed him--providing we had learned the entirety of the story from Kalani's perspective--I would see them no different as I would see the Mallers. It happens that I see both groups as being analogous. The biggest difference between each is that we're witnessing one side of a tale. Others may argue, as they have in the past, that the two groups are entirely different, but the reality of the situation is that both groups are fighting for survival and strength.

As for [Samantha a scum because she bailed on Hope], I'm afraid you'll have to provide a time code to explain that one to me. I'm medicated and have no recollection of this.

This really does become a game of what ifs very quickly.

[Osiris]

The safety thing is probably about the same. I think Canada just has a better advertising agency :)

Our publicists are the best in the world.

[reaper239]

Yeah, that sort of thing is common where I live as well. I've been shot at. I've had my house shot at. I've been in a variety of armed conflicts with individuals and I've watched people (with training) curl into the fetal position and cry for their mothers. Stress affects EVERYONE differently, and just because you may have training with a weapon doesn't mean you're going to react to the stress any different. I've also seen people who are untrained handle themselves as if they had done 9 tours in a jungle somewhere in Vietnam. All training means is that you are familiar with the equipment you are using and have a relative calmness when you are faced with situations like 'shit, it's jammed' or 'I need to reload'. The only thing that will prepare you for having a gun shoved in your face is having a gun shoved in your face by someone who wants to use it on you. For the record, yes I have had a gun shoved in my face by someone I was certain intended to use it. One of the scariest moments of my life.

those are excellent points, but at the same time what yarri said is also true, training increases your chances of surviving a situation like that. read "On Killing" by ret lt col dave grossman (i know i keep coming back to that but it really is the end all be all on the subject) in WWII only between 15 and 25 percent of US soldiers would pull the trigger on another human being. that number has risen steadily until now over 90% will fire with lethal accuracy. the difference is the training, now US soldiers are trained and drilled not to think about it but to automatically do it, before thought can enter their minds. they're trained to the point that finding that target and pulling the trigger is a reflex, all without actually experiencing combat first. while an average civilian cannot spend several months in intensive training like new soldiers, we can spend time training and honing our skills to the point that we have much better odds of surviving a potentially lethal encounter.

[Nate Eeez]

Your arguments still haven't changed my stance on not giving Kalani a pass. I understand and accept the parental aspect of your arguments and I will accept them up to a point. What would your stance be, for the tower people, if Kalani had been outed as the rat and they forced him out or shot him on the spot? I also have another question. If Kalani is touted as being a good father and doing anything for his daughter is Samantha a scum because she bailed on Hope? I have to admit I am slanted because Kalani rubbed me the wrong way right from his introduction.

I'm also not trying to sway anyone's opinion or stance. I just gave the reasoning behind mine. Samantha regretted and felt badly about not going back for Hope. She was scared. She was not scum. We never know what we'll do in a given situation until it happens.

I don't think the Tower crew would have executed Kalani. Some of them may have wanted to, but over all, I think they are better morally than the Mallers.

[IrishZombieKiller]

Kalani is a parent. In his stead if it was me, I would sacrifice the world to save my daughter / children as well. That is what parents do.

I have 7 kids, 6 boys and 1 daughter.

[ClearSights]

Kalani is a parent. In his stead if it was me, I would sacrifice the world to save my daughter / children as well. That is what parents do.

I have 7 kids, 6 boys and 1 daughter.

Totally agree, He had no idea at first who the group was, it just happened that they became close. His first and only purpose was his daughter so you can't blame him for that

[Osiris]

Kalani is a parent. In his stead if it was me, I would sacrifice the world to save my daughter / children as well. That is what parents do.

I have 7 kids, 6 boys and 1 daughter.


Burn it to the ground. My only regret would be not being able to burn it a second time.

[IrishZombieKiller]

I think it is easier for parents or those who have had to raise siblings who understand that there are no borders you will not cross and nothing you will not do.

[yarri]

I think it is easier for parents or those who have had to raise siblings who understand that there are no borders you will not cross and nothing you will not do.

My feelings exactly...

[Osiris]

ATTN: yarri


Your sig is broken.


Sincerely,
Management

[yarri]

ATTN: yarri


Your sig is broken.


Sincerely,
Management


Dear Management,

Thank you!

Love and shit,
Yarri

[trubkir]

So my list of questions to get in my tower goes something like this.

1. Are you a parent?
2. If answer is yes and there is no offspring in sight. Take .22pistol and pop,pop,pop. 3 in the head you know they're dead.

It's justifiable because that person would sell out the tower.

[Osiris]

So my list of questions to get in my tower goes something like this.

1. Are you a parent?
2. If answer is yes and there is no offspring in sight. Take .22pistol and pop,pop,pop. 3 in the head you know they're dead.

It's justifiable because that person would sell out the tower.

That's.... I just can't get behind that. :hsugh:

[IrishZombieKiller]

LOL, parents are funny creatures are we not!

[yarri]

LOL, parents are funny creatures are we not!

Yes we are, we tend to get down right militant over our offspring. I know the only time I've ever come to violence was over one of my children.

[VEE]

So my list of questions to get in my tower goes something like this.

1. Are you a parent?
2. If answer is yes and there is no offspring in sight. Take .22pistol and pop,pop,pop. 3 in the head you know they're dead.

It's justifiable because that person would sell out the tower.

Got a relative, a wife, a girlfriend, somebody you like a bit. kill 'em all, it's the only way to be sure. Just to be on the safe side, shoot yourself as well. Sorted.

[Osiris]

That's a bit harsh, man.

[IrishZombieKiller]

Lol

[COsurvivor]

Lord of the Flies then?

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there,

no, I have not run through all of the posts here. Because I am not here to argue with anyone's opinion, no matter how right or wrong his or her opinion may be. And I don't intent to restart any fire. I just want to speak up for my own opinion - now that I finished listening to all available chapters of WA for the first time.

Kalani. Actually, for a long time I did not think anyhing about him. He seemed to be one of those guys not just saying yes or no, but who kept to his personal opinion; yet he did many things - especially - in favor of "The Tower", although his intentions were very different.
I really did not understand why he dropped the heli into the rig; and I honestly had no clue about so many of his activities. But when chapter #27 was "aired"/ "podcasted", I really started to feel sorry for him and for everything he went through, because all of sudden everything made sense. Yes, his actions were wrong in many ways. His malicious attempts to push The Tower into a defenseless situation and therefore providing a very good opportunity for the Mallers to attack; him shooting the Brit in order to not getting uncovered ... Man, no clue how I would react to someone doing this around me - no matter what his motivation was. And truth is: I even would not know, if I were strong enough to put so many lives at risk just in order to feed my hope of getting my own child back alive.

And still I understand him.

I don't know the full understanding of "pass" in this context of this forum-topic. But I do understand one thing: the ideas behind "probation". Kalani did many things wrong - endangering others, but in selfinterest or selfishness? But he had his lectures and he found his peace with himself when he wrote down things for others to know. He payed a high price for what he did wrong in the past and only for one purpose actually: helping others, at first his child, later The Tower-folk. He helped others and he died doing so ... What he did wrong cannot be undone; and there is a heavy burden that weighs on what is left of him, therefore a heavy burden on the memories of Kalani; but there also is the awareness that he never acted solely for his personal gain and that he was prepared and desperate enough to pay back the debt he forced upon himself ... And so he did with his life.

Who would be willing to do what he did?

I felt very sorry for what happened to Kalani.

[Osiris]

Oh shiiiiiiiit here we go again!

[LiamKerrington]

Oh shiiiiiiiit here we go again!

No worries.
a) The Kalani-topic seems to get old.
b) Look at my signature ... :yay:

edit: Why wouldn't my signature show up in this posting???
edit2: All of a sudden ... :zombie:

[Osiris]

:squint:

[Robzombie]

Any thoughts/ideas regarding at what point in the story do you think Kalani stopped writing in his journal so suddenly (per Michaels reading in Ch 28 Part 1 @ 28:30)?
K, I know he's on his way or soon on his way to get the helicoptor at LAX, but what made him stop writing at "This here is my failsafe. You know the truth now, you know what he would have done. Regardless of what I did before I'm......."

[Osiris]

Any thoughts/ideas regarding at what point in the story do you think Kalani stopped writing in his journal so suddenly (per Michaels reading in Ch 28 Part 1 @ 28:30)?
K, I know he's on his way or soon on his way to get the helicoptor at LAX, but what made him stop writing at "This here is my failsafe. You know the truth now, you know what he would have done. Regardless of what I did before I'm......."

Previous night's taco dinner. Just ask Britt how true that is.

[Christopher kitto]

I mostly liked him throughout he did what he had to do but I always liked pippin (even if he was kind of an ass) but kalanis interaction with the other tower makes him very complex to me. A free pass? No probably not, but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same.

[Ink]

No, they died specifically because of Kalani. HE killed every single person that has died because of the attack by the mallers. Had he not lead them there, had he not betrayed them, had he not made damn sure that they couldn't fight back they all died. Would they have died later on? Maybe. All we know is that they ARE dead because of the actions of Kalani. Yes, protect your child and all, but only a moron would think that they Mallers would hold up their end of the deal. Kalani was stupid for believing they would and because of that everything that sits now is because of him. He can never be forgiven for what he did, fighting for his daughter or not. The second they took Hanna away from him, she was as good as dead. Only an idiot (in his shoes, not anyone here) would think otherwise and his actions are the sole reason everyone that is dead or missing is gone. The only reason. Crashing the helo into the rig wasn't because of his desire to save everyone, he said that he barely tolerated everyone even after all the work they were doing to try and save as many people as they could. Kalani was looking out for himself and Hanna the whole time, no one else. Thinking he could save Hanna was complete stupidity. He saw how they treated everyone and for cripes sake they were all murders and violent criminals, how could he possibly think they would hold up their end of the deal? He saw first hand what they were capable of, Scratch was hell bent on killing every single one of the Tower residents because Pegs killed her brother in self defense. Scratch attacked innocent people and they merely defended themselves and she goes on a murderous rampage. Kalani should have known right then that Hanna was as good as dead. He was an irrational, idiotic, backstabbing moron and he deserved what he got. Good riddance to him, they were vastly better off before he showed up. Hell, they saved his life at the risk of their own at the Arena and he paid them back with betrayal. Kid or no kid, he was a dangerous idiot that got almost everyone killed while insulting them and plotting behind their backs. He justly died, but he should have suffered for it in the process.

Think about what you're talking about just for a second and tell me you could stare your daughter in the face as she's being taken from you, and tell her "You're dead, and I'm not going to get myself killed trying to change that." You think there's a choice there? Samantha was convinced that there was nothing she or Datu could do to escape. Maybe if she'd actually tried she would be alive, keeping Datu from doing the exact thing on the Tower roof during "The War." If you saw even a glimpse of hope in survival, you'd take it if you were mentally stable. Some people's will to keep their kids alive is even stronger

[deperez130]

Man I keep looking at the dates on yall's posts and i feel like i missed out. I just found and finished this series and have missed all the conversations :(. But Kalani was responsible for the deaths of the people in the tower, but it was about his daughter and I cant fault him for that. But i didn't like the character from the start. The only redeeming thing that earned some respect was the sacrifice he made by destroying the tanker.

[Robzombie]

Man I keep looking at the dates on yall's posts and i feel like i missed out. I just found and finished this series and have missed all the conversations :(. But Kalani was responsible for the deaths of the people in the tower, but it was about his daughter and I cant fault him for that. But i didn't like the character from the start. The only redeeming thing that earned some respect was the sacrifice he made by destroying the tanker.

Well better late than never i suppose. Pretty good stuff right. If you have only listened through it once then you should give it another go, or several more listens too if you enjoy it that much, especially during the break. I think we're all in for a hell of a fourth season.

I always liked Kalani, well actually i just dont hate anyone. I think each character has its role to play and people are all different. I didnt like how he was treated. He seemed to be an underdog that tried his best to contribute and ask the hard questions yet was never accepted. He did what he did, and without the relationship that we as listeners have with the other characters, it should not be so difficult to understand where his own priorities lay...with his daughter.

[Osiris]

Kalani was innocent! He was a pawn! A hapless pawn!

[nikvoodoo]

Kalani was innocent! He was a pawn! A hapless pawn!

I'm book marking this post for the next time we fight about the morality of scratch....

[Osiris]

I'm book marking this post for the next time we fight about the morality of scratch....

She was a hapless pawn! She's innocent! Durai coerced her into everything! She's a saint! She used to run a daycare!

[scbubba]

She was a hapless pawn! She's innocent! Durai coerced her into everything! She's a saint! She used to run a daycare!

Oh my!!! The unimaginable implications of that statement..... O_o

[Solanine]

Yes. He gets a pass. He did the right thing in the end.

[Elisa]

I'm sorry no pass too selfish, too destructive, too manipulative and too shortsighted. That said I do feel a little bit sorry for him. Great voice actor too. ;-)

[Drannix99]

I mean, he may be a betrayer, but at least he took out Dick Van Dyke (aka Pippin). Just a thought....

I personally hated Kalani because he was soooo mouthy and whiny, and could never back up all of his talk. Everytime he spoke I was waiting for someone to punch him in the mouth and tell him to shut the F@$K Up!!!

[Solanine]

Kolani started off a whiny bitch, but by the end I was sad to see (or hear) him go.
I'd probably be whiny too if my daughter was in Scratches hands.
And also he got better by the end, he was definitely on the towers side and did them a favour by killing pippin the Maller.

Now Scratch on the other hand, bitch does not get a pass, abortion or no abortion.
Her voice goes right through me every time I hear it :mad:

[Osiris]

And now, no matter what, Scratch gets a pass.

[Solanine]

Its not often I say this Osiris old bud old pal, but your just plain wrong.

[Osiris]

Its not often I say this Osiris old bud old pal, but your just plain wrong.

Dude you say that like every seven posts! :D

[Solanine]

No I say, "Reaper, your just plain wrong" every seven posts. Every 14 or so its you I'm contradicting.

[Robzombie]

Dude you say that like every seven posts! :D

I know I'm THINKING it at least every second or third post.....bwahaha :cool:

[Osiris]

Oh yous guys are fucking fucks.

[Solanine]

I know I'm THINKING it at least every second or third post.....bwahaha :cool:
Robzombie your wrong. :D

[Robzombie]

no, no, I meant that I think Osiris is wrong with every second or third post.

Don't worry, Osiris just isn't himself if we don't rile him up a bit every once in a while.

See, just check his reply, :mad: lol. Thats the Osiris we know and love :D

[Osiris]

no, no, I meant that I think Osiris is wrong with every second or third post.

Don't worry, Osiris just isn't himself if we don't rile him up a bit every once in a while.

See, just check his reply, :mad: lol. Thats the Osiris we know and love :D

:hsugh: I will push you down a flight of stairs, bro.

[Solanine]

Do they even have stairs in Canada ay?
I thought you just climbed a line of progressively taller moose (or meese) in order to get to the next floor of your buildings.

[Osiris]

Do they even have stairs in Canada ay?
I thought you just climbed a line of progressively taller moose (or meese) in order to get to the next floor of your buildings.

Sorry, Canadians don't say "ay" we say "eh" and we don't even say that it much.

[Solanine]

Yeah and I've never eaten crumpets smothered in butter. Or fish and chips.
Or a sheep's stomach stuffed full of other bits of the sheep everybody just assumed got thrown away..
In actual fact stereotypes are pretty accurate.

[Robzombie]

If I have ever said "eh", it's more like a "HEY!" as in, "Hey jerkface" which may actually be a more commonly used term than just "eh", eh.

and no, only the wealthiest of our maple syrup tycoons have stairs. The ice bricks get progressively taller to reach the grand entrance of their 2 story igloo mansions.

[Solanine]

Wait now i'm confused, your both canadians? Do you moose pool together?

[Osiris]

If I have ever said "eh", it's more like a "HEY!" as in, "Hey jerkface" which may actually be a more commonly used term than just "eh", eh.

and no, only the wealthiest of our maple syrup tycoons have stairs. The ice bricks get progressively taller to reach the grand entrance of their 2 story igloo mansions.

I've never even seen a real set of stairs. I read about them in a book once called "Stairs: Another Thing Canadians Don't Have" by the same guy that wrote "Under The Full Moon: Something Canada Never Has."

[Osiris]

P.S. For those that didn't know, there is no moon in the night sky here in Canada.

[Litmaster]

My visualization of Osiris and Robzombie:

http://canadaalive.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/bobanddoug1.jpg

[Wicked Sid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJUgu9qr8wI

Here's a little Canadian primer for all o' you Americans.

[Osiris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJUgu9qr8wI

Here's a little Canadian primer for all o' you Americans.

This is all truth. In fact, Dave Foley still has an active warrant for his immediate arrest for divulging parliament secrets.

[Solanine]

So people think canada is a bit of a push over, but I see your Canada and I raise you one Iceland
The Icelandic navy (and in actual fact the whole of the icelandic military) is pictured below.
2606

Also cars stop on busy main roads over there so that pedestrians can cross whats up with that ?

[scbubba]

So people think canada is a bit of a push over, but I see your Canada and I raise you one Iceland
The Icelandic navy (and in actual fact the whole of the icelandic military) is pictured below.
2606

Also cars stop on busy main roads over there so that pedestrians can cross whats up with that ?

Well, I know what I'm doing this weekend. 3 buddies and I are going to invade Iceland and take over for a couple of days. Would go longer but I have to be back at work on Monday....

[LiamKerrington]

My visualization of Osiris and Robzombie:

http://canadaalive.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/bobanddoug1.jpg

And who would be woh???

[Solanine]

I wouldn't. You can't loot geothermal power (unless you have some energon cubes I guess) and their water smells like rotten eggs.

[scbubba]

I wouldn't. You can't loot geothermal power (unless you have some energon cubes I guess) and their water smells like rotten eggs.

Sure, sure. But, Asdis Ran (http://www.asdisran.com/asdisran.html)! :yay:

[PencilBoy99]

Yea, I understand Kalani's motivation, I'd do anything to save my kid. But... It's obvious from minute one that there's no way that the mallers would hold up the deal. As soon as he met with the first group, he should have just told them what was up and begged for their help. I think Michael and the gang would have at least considered it.

[Delly]

Yea, I understand Kalani's motivation, I'd do anything to save my kid. But... It's obvious from minute one that there's no way that the mallers would hold up the deal. As soon as he met with the first group, he should have just told them what was up and begged for their help. I think Michael and the gang would have at least considered it.

I agree with you, that he should of asked for help!..