Who's the Rat V. 3.0: This time We're Alive and Serious

[nikvoodoo]

Hear ye hear ye!

It's been about a year since we last took a vote from the populace regarding who in the Johnny Walker Blue Blazes is the Rat of the Tower!!

We're all older, wiser, and we have a gigantic soup bone dangling in front of our faces at this particular moment. So.....let's hear it! Who's the Rat of the Tower?????

[Hellbringer]

I still go with Bill as the thief.

[nikvoodoo]

I still go with Bill as the thief.

But who's the rat? Or are they one in the same for you?

[Hellbringer]

But who's the rat? Or are they one in the same for you?

Yeah, I think I originally voted Bill as the rat, but I don't want any "cliffhangers" (reading that other thread) influence my decision making now. Therefore, I figure I'll come completely out of left field in the Soccer Stadium (for now) and say it's someone not mentioned yet. It goes against all conventional Hollywood drama series wisdom, meaning it has to be someone mentioned previously in the series, but I can't commit to it being someone we have heard from or about yet.

I'm now the guy Brian from Family Guy hates during voting season.

[7oddisdead]

so..i pulled this poll up this evening and all the sudden the sparrows that live in my beard started shouting kalani! kalani!..kalani the rat!

i said

" whoa there, true believers! thats what you've been lead to believe!...but lets examine things a lil closer, shall we??
who has always been somewhere close by when the perverbial shit has hit the fan?
who made friends with the hawiian bad boy early on in his tower time?
who has a mysterious brother, living somewhere in the states?
who has done worse things, so he claims...then throw dead bodies over a balcony?

thats right true believers, mighty king datu the fucking resourceful!!!
eck-cel-sior!!

the little sparrows just stared at me like i was a total idiot...

[Nathan.Luiz]

Steven has been a bit of an arse for the entire time we've known about him, so I think it might be him. In all honesty, I don't have a clue, there is so much conflicting evidence for everyone it might be.

[StepLaugh]

This is still sooo open, I have no idea, I know there's a red-haring, and I'm not falling for it!

[Grognaurd]

To begin, it is easiest to assume that the same person is all three. AS LONG As caveats are used to remind one of the assumption.

Second, I am going to start with the major characters becuase we know the most about their whereabouts in addition, it will be a better story if is a character of note that can be followed through the story. There would be a riot on the boards if we find out that it was really Col. Mustard in the Library with the Lead Pipe.

I am hard pressed to place most of the characters at the scene of each crime.

Michael-- I do not think he is a pulling an OJ "If I did it..." So, take him of the list. IN addtion, the Thief happens while he is on the water-mission.
Angel-- Not present for Theft. Nearly impossible to trip the alarm, shoot Pippen and meet Michael in the stairs
Burt, Away at Theft, away at Assassin
Saul -- Away at theft, away at Assassin
Kalani / Datu -- away at thetf, away at Assassin. I will ellaborate here a bit. My assumption is that the innocent one would not leave the tower with the alarm sounding. Even if Kalani and Datu left after the alarm started I find even less unlikely that when question about it would day, nope I did not hear an alarm.
Riley -- Away at theft.
Lizzy -- Away at Assassin
Victor / Tanya / Hope not present for Season 1
Tommy not present for season 2 or forward
Steven Not even a redshirt for Season 1. Not available for season 3 forward.
Pegs, Dun? She is not listed by Angel as not having an alibi. But it could be an oversight. She was not on guard duty, because she was doing something else.
Kelly -- dun, dun, dun

Both Pegs and Kelly return to the tower from the colony as did Michael's silent pistol
Both Pegs and Kelly are at the tower at the time of the theft
Latch and Scratch show up at the tower just after Pegs guard shift and durring Kelly's.
Last, Peg's is the one that pushes for the party instead of getting some more of Burts ammo etc.

More speculative
Tending the garden on the roof, she would probably have more interaction with Bill.
Bill appears to freely mix with tower's residence the day after the theft and one of the first things he does is hit on Pegs. I do not think it is coincidene. I think they were kinda chummy and Bill does the whole show up at the same party and leverage the advance with Alcohol.

Withered Cortex Failure...
Michael's arm gets pretty banged up again durring the war. One of the sparrows from 7odd's beard reminded me that Pegs says, there is some ice up in Bill's apartment. I'll go get some. or something like that. Is that the only place to have ice? Run up the 10+ flights of stairs. So, by her own words she says she knows that there is ice in Bill's apartment. I have to go back and relisten. I cannot remember if she goes or if she comes back.


Next time I will write as though all three events are not connected.

[Wicked Sid]

Still vote Saul.

No amount of logic will deter my current course of non-action. Even after the Rat is revealed, I will still vote Saul.

[Grognaurd]

Hmmm... Saul. The thing that has always bothered me is the first night. Why is he so slow to respond to Michaels call for help? I would have to go back and relisten, but I think I hear him call back to Michael, but is a no show until the threat is neutralized.

[Zombiphobe]

I still have to stand behind the Kalani being the Rat and the Assasin. The thief, on the otherhand, was Bill.

Here is my interpretation of a timeline for Kalani:

Kalani flew into LAX from Hawaii . Coming in loud, they were swarmed by zombies and only 3 people made it off the tarmac including Kalani and Hannah.
Kalani and company saw a group of survivors from the window of a nearby hotel and ran to them.
These survivors were in fact the Mallers although he let Michael and company believe they went straight to the Other Tower.
The Mallers recognized Kalani's special relationship with Hannah and used that as leverage to get Kalani to work for them, specifically to infiltrate the Other Tower. I believe Scratch probably detailed to Kalani exactly what she would do to Hannah if she did not have his full cooperation.
When Kalani starts working for the Mallers he is given the nickname "Kalani". We know the Mallers all use nicknames and Datu mentioned that his name did not match his face when first meeting Kalani in the Arena.
While in place at the Other Tower, Kalani is found out. I suspect something he did might have lead to the security breach that let in the One With The Markings.
When the Other Tower fell, Kalani was taken to the Arena.
After being rescued by the "We're Alive" Tower, Kalani is put on guard duty.
He uses this opportunity to contact the Mallers to let them know he's still alive and ensure Hannah's continued safety.
The Mallers are happy to learn they now have a man inside the "We're Alive" Tower and also learn about the missing guns and the upcoming party.
The Mallers then mobilize for their seige on the "We're Alive" Tower.

In Season two, Kalani goes with Angel on a mission to collect the MREs.
Kalani gets very nervous that Angel is unexpectedly contacting the Mallers. Scratch would not have been happy that Kalani failed to forewarn her of such a meeting.
When Angel tells him the body they are carrying is Latch, Kalani quickly denounces any knowledge of who Latch is to conceal his ties to the Mallers.
When meeting up with Skittles, Skittles said he recognized Kalani. This was probably from his time at the Other Tower, since Skittles was reported to have been there when it was overrun.
Twice on the mission, Kalani tells Angel to leave him to die.
I think Kalani may have hoped his death would somehow keep Hannah safe, that Scratch would have no need to threaten/harm her with Kalani out of the picture.
After Angel refuses to let him give up, Kalani becomes loyal to Angel and the "We're Alive" Tower, and ends all contact with the Mallers, hoping they'll assume he died. Perhaps he hoped to be reunited with Hannah one day or was just consoled with the idea that she would still be alive somewhere.

When Pippin arrives there is now someone who could ID Kalani and either tell the Tower of his past connection with the Mallers or tell the Mallers he is in fact alive.
On the day Kalani and Datu head out to work with the Jolly Green Giant:
1. Datu is in the Parking Garage getting the car ready while Kalani goes to to tell Michael (on the 5th floor) that they are leaving.
2. Kalani then goes down to the 4th floor and cuts the wire in the hall before ducking into a neighboring apartment.
3. Angel leaves the Guard Room and heads up to the 5th floor Armory.
4. Kalani slips in, shoots Pippin and takes out the radio/communications.
5. Kalani heads down to the Parking Garage and leaves with Datu, who had the music turned way up.
6. Kalani checks in with Burt over the radio and "learns" that communication with the Tower is out, giving the impression that they were en route at the time of the shooting.

With Kalani no longer in contact with the Mallers, Hannah is now dispensable, to be used in the fake Lizzie hand-off.
Scratch is true to her word in how Hannah is killed. This is also a message she would want to send to Kalani in the event that he was still alive. Scratch would want Kalani to know it was Hannah, and that his actions lead to her death.
When Kalani hears about the fake Lizzie and how she was killed, he is convinced this red-head girl had to have been his Hannah.
In a heroic act of redemption, Kalani sacrifices himself for the Tower members he once betrayed. He tells Angel he hid his journals in Bill's desk which includes the story of all his dealings with the Mallers.
Kalani also tells Angel "That girl, that was my Hannah". This was the final peice of information Angel would need (after reading his journal) to piece together why he did what he did.

[Test subject 9]

The time line is dead on from how it seems,but you miss one point kalani and datu left after angle checked them out. But i think it went down like this. Datu in the car music up fiddling with his pack. Kalani walks up to him "we should get going." Datu agrees starts the car. Angel runs in asks have you been here the hole time. Kalani says yes and the they should leave before wasting any gas. Angel says your right get going. And they leave.
So if angel would have asked more questions they would have found him out before he died. But it makes for a better story the way it went down.

[Zombiphobe]

I was under the impression Angel got another radio to contact Datu/Kalani. Datu then said he has been with Kalani the whole time and that they had left before it all happened (at least from Datu's perspective).

[Test subject 9]

no because Michael told angel to let them go. they (datu and kalani) knew about the shooting before they left and only need to be told through the radio that they (micheal and angel) had a locked up someone they thought had done it.

[Zombiphobe]

I went back to listen again, and at 6:19 in Episode 22 Our Doubts Are Traitors Part 2, Angel says, "So we grabbed the other radio from the roof and brought it down. Datu says he and Kalani were together the whole time and left before anything happened."

I don't think Angel would have said they left before anything happened if he was able to question them in person after the shooting.

[Nathan.Luiz]

I don't think Kalani is the rat, as in The War the rat has informed Scratch who everyone major is. Kalani had only been there for around a day at that point I think, he would not have known who everyone major was and been able to inform Scratch who they were just on voice recognition.

[Nathan.Luiz]

Interestingly, during Chapter 11, Riley dissapears off at 05:50, only letting Pegs know she was going and not letting anyone know where she was going. Did she contact the Mallers? Maybe....

[7oddisdead]

Man...i HATE to do this but...the people that are identified on the radio by durai..are the primary people that kalani interacted with his first day(s?) there....

[nikvoodoo]

I went back to listen again, and at 6:19 in Episode 22 Our Doubts Are Traitors Part 2, Angel says, "So we grabbed the other radio from the roof and brought it down. Datu says he and Kalani were together the whole time and left before anything happened."

I don't think Angel would have said they left before anything happened if he was able to question them in person after the shooting.

But the problem with Datu saying he was with Kalani the whole time is Kalani would have had to run down 6-7 flights of stairs in a minute. Datu may believe he and Kalani were together at the time of the shooting, but the odds are that's not true. This is actually a conversation we had on the upcoming WND #29, so I won't expound on it anymore at the moment.

[HardKor]

I'm pretty sure I've had a different answer for this poll all three times we've done it now. But awhile back I pretty much staked my claim on Riley being the rat, and I'm sticking with it to the bitter end. I'll admit Kalani seems pretty likely right now, but we've had so many red herrings, we can take anything for certain until we hear an actual confession (posthumously if necessary). And until I hear that I'm gonna ride my "Riley's the rat" to the end...right off a cliff if I have to.

[Grognaurd]

Riley: An interesting tidbit is that Riley can not say Pegs. Fir her it is pihgs. So Riley would not bring Pegs name up on the radio.

Mallers. Scratch met Burt with the tanker and Michael in the stairway. So she could recognize them by voice.

Pegs. She talks to them on the radio at the war. Even if they had been listening in the whole time and could know everyone (later Tardust says he had to listen to all their bird talk). Scratch and Durai may have pretended not to know her. Durai and pegs could be negotiating in open code requesting a couple more weeks or days) But talks break down because of shots fired.

Still lots of unknowns.

Thief
Rat
Shooter
Assassin

Could be one or more people.

If one did all I am pretty sure Kelly is the only one left alive and well known to us

Remove shooter and it could be

Kelly or Pegs

Add back shooter and remove thief

Kelly. The weakness here is Kelly with gun in season 1 seems odd. But season two shows a surprise. When asked by gatekeeper what type of gun, she plays dumb. Fast forward a few days to the escape from the colony. I do not remember the direct quote, but it is something like, here Pegs, you take the M16 and I'll take the gloc. That makes me scratch my head. She does not know the m16 even after three months of lessons of lessons from Burt? She calls the hangun by name even though we have never heard of that type of pistol. Maybe she learned from Burt or criminal case. But it is one of things that makes me say hmmmmm and file it away.

This is reinforced later when they rescue Tanya. Michael tells her to stay put. But she runs and shoots very well. So well that Michael says Kelly?!?

[7oddisdead]

im gonna throw something just flat out...bat-guano crazy up in here...but how about this...tanya has transferred all the journal data up to this point,correct? well...when/if she see kalanis journal...what if...


samatha and kalani have very similar handwriting?..

I STILL hold onto the belief that we did not get the entire story at the arena...while i highly, highly doubt that craziness i just said will come to pass..i'll bet my beard its something similar...the thing we need to keep in mind is while in most cases we have a clear(well, ok...clear as mud) view into the "hows" of a "kalanis the rat" or a "kelly's the rat"...there just seems to be way to many small openings for someone whos incredibly crafty to sweep in, do what needs to be done, and make it look like..."oh kalani, what have you done??"

example: everybody(myself a few months ago as well) tried to place kalani in position to shoot pippen and run down to the car. the question i have is, do we REALLY know that datu was just down there twiddling his thumbs or whatever? no. our only eyewitness was a blackout drunk lurking on the staircase..who didnt notice a large hawiian white guy pass her, so would she have noticed datu saying "oh hey kalani, hold on..i was just grabbing this cassette from my room"

so i say while we are looking for someone to lay the blame on...also look at who could possibly be setting that person up. with any good mystery, your told just enough to figure it out...and then when you get ALL the details...:facepalm: :D

[nikvoodoo]

Arena

I think there is additional info in the arena. From each side.

I would have to go back and listen, someone may be able to get to it before me.

Angel has his M16, right. It is fouled by rotten meat. But, then they wash themselves off. I have to assume they could clean the gun a bit.

But, on the run with Kalani and Datu, he says he is out of bullets. When were they fired? He does not say the gun is broken or jammed. He says he is out of ammo. In the getaway hummer, he does not offer any one the individual bullets nor does he offer his secondary clip. I do not think Angel would leave the tower without at least one extra clip.

We can do the same with Rileys Berreta, right? Datu? The group finds a shotgun and bow and arrows. Datu fires the shotgun. Riley fires the bow.

So at the arena, I cannot recall a firefight. Except Datu. The tower was not out of ammo when they left. At the start of season 2 Michael says he will cover Burt etal with his M16.

I also recall having difficulty aligning the zombie commands and Samanthas screaming. Normally these things interweave to help timestamp.

This is so whacked that I have not brought it up. I do not recall anyone else, but I did not join the board until season 2.

Not to be douchey, but what does this have to do with the Rat?

[Grognaurd]

** Bleep Bleep **

[nikvoodoo]

I'll find a home for it before the End of Day (unless a fellow admin/mod finds it before I do). It's not like it's a poor post.....it just doesn't belong here.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

But the problem with Datu saying he was with Kalani the whole time is Kalani would have had to run down 6-7 flights of stairs in a minute. Datu may believe he and Kalani were together at the time of the shooting, but the odds are that's not true. This is actually a conversation we had on the upcoming WND #29, so I won't expound on it anymore at the moment.

...and Nik, here's the problem with that "Kalani would have had to run down 6-7 flights of stairs in a min." Kalani, the big out of shape Hawaiian?

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

I'll find a home for it before the End of Day (unless a fellow admin/mod finds it before I do). It's not like it's a poor post.....it just doesn't belong here.


it goes in the "Have you noticed this?" or the "Loopholes" thread.

I "moved" it to the "HYNT" area under "Story Theories".... i think.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

im gonna throw something just flat out...bat-guano crazy up in here...but how about this...tanya has transferred all the journal data up to this point,correct? well...when/if she see kalanis journal...what if...


samatha and kalani have very similar handwriting?..

I STILL hold onto the belief that we did not get the entire story at the arena...while i highly, highly doubt that craziness i just said will come to pass..i'll bet my beard its something similar...the thing we need to keep in mind is while in most cases we have a clear(well, ok...clear as mud) view into the "hows" of a "kalanis the rat" or a "kelly's the rat"...there just seems to be way to many small openings for someone whos incredibly crafty to sweep in, do what needs to be done, and make it look like..."oh kalani, what have you done??"

example: everybody(myself a few months ago as well) tried to place kalani in position to shoot pippen and run down to the car. the question i have is, do we REALLY know that datu was just down there twiddling his thumbs or whatever? no. our only eyewitness was a blackout drunk lurking on the staircase..who didnt notice a large hawiian white guy pass her, so would she have noticed datu saying "oh hey kalani, hold on..i was just grabbing this cassette from my room"

so i say while we are looking for someone to lay the blame on...also look at who could possibly be setting that person up. with any good mystery, your told just enough to figure it out...and then when you get ALL the details...:facepalm: :D

Someone correct me but, Kalani is "Hawaiian" he's not just "FROM" Hawaii right?

[nikvoodoo]

Someone correct me but, Kalani is "Hawaiian" he's not just "FROM" Hawaii right?

Kalani claims he's Hawaiian, but Datu says his appearance doesn't match his name. So.....there's that.

And that was my point about Kalani running down the stairs. He's a fat out of shape Hawaiian who can't run fast (or for that long) so Datu saying he was with Kalani the whole time is most likely not true because Pippin would have been murdered at a time when Kalani was still in the stairwell (if he's being truthful and went directly from Point A to Point B)

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Kalani claims he's Hawaiian, but Datu says his appearance doesn't match his name. So.....there's that.

And that was my point about Kalani running down the stairs. He's a fat out of shape Hawaiian who can't run fast (or for that long) so Datu saying he was with Kalani the whole time is most likely not true because Pippin would have been murdered at a time when Kalani was still in the stairwell (if he's being truthful and went directly from Point A to Point B)


Datu said that? really? time stamp/chapter? Now I have to go back and listen.
You're right, if Kalani killed the Brit, then he'd be huff'n and puff'n.. his big ass shirt would be soaked

[Nathan.Luiz]

Someone correct me but, Kalani is "Hawaiian" he's not just "FROM" Hawaii right?

Samantha refers to him as a "Plump Hawaiian" in the Arena, so I presume he is Hawaiian.

[Grognaurd]

If we try to hold everything together in "real time" Kalani has about 60 seconds to leave Michael, climb down two, three, four? flights of stairs and leave with Datu.

If we line up the alarm beeps, Michael is opening the door ~5 seconds. Angel is a little later at closer to 10. The are speaking to eachother around 15 seconds.

This where I get confused. My memmory is that KC said that Burts roomo was on the same level as the guard room. This makes no sense. Angel and michael are on the landing of the stairs for respective floor about the same time. We hear them clatter on the stairs. If Burt's room is on the same level as the guard room, why does Angel go to the stairs? Michael may have gone to the stairs, because all he knows is there is an alarm. then Angel tells Michael its from Burts Armory. If that is on the same floor that Michael is already on, how does Angel beat him there?

The only way it makes sense is that Burts room is one floor below Michael and one above Angel. The shots occur about 24 seconds and the alarm is shut off at about 40 seconds

Crowbar, I do not think we actually hear Datu or Kalani say they left before the alarm. Instead, Angel reports to Michael that Datu and Kalani said they had left. This is at the same time they discuss the others' alibies and those that were alone.

[7oddisdead]

For those who question the whole, "he doesn't look Hawaiian" thing...just do a google image search on the word kalani...it takes a couple pages, but you do find at least one Caucasian looking guy with the traditional island name...so they do exist, maybe not too many..but..yea

[nikvoodoo]

If we try to hold everything together in "real time" Kalani has about 60 seconds to leave Michael, climb down two, three, four? flights of stairs and leave with Datu.

If we line up the alarm beeps, Michael is opening the door ~5 seconds. Angel is a little later at closer to 10. The are speaking to eachother around 15 seconds.

This where I get confused. My memmory is that KC said that Burts roomo was on the same level as the guard room. This makes no sense. Angel and michael are on the landing of the stairs for respective floor about the same time. We hear them clatter on the stairs. If Burt's room is on the same level as the guard room, why does Angel go to the stairs? Michael may have gone to the stairs, because all he knows is there is an alarm. then Angel tells Michael its from Burts Armory. If that is on the same floor that Michael is already on, how does Angel beat him there?


They were on the same level before the War. After the war the guard room is on (I believe) on the 5th floor, and the Armory is on the 6th. Which would have meant Michael was on the 7th floor with Tanya I believe.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

For those who question the whole, "he doesn't look Hawaiian" thing...just do a google image search on the word kalani...it takes a couple pages, but you do find at least one Caucasian looking guy with the traditional island name...so they do exist, maybe not too many..but..yea

having a Hawaiian name still doesn't make him "Hawaiian". Anyway, we've been over this Kalani looks thing on characters thread. I meet you half way and say he can be biracial and leave it at that.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

They were on the same level before the War. After the war the guard room is on (I believe) on the 5th floor, and the Armory is on the 6th. Which would have meant Michael was on the 7th floor with Tanya I believe.

I read where KC said they were on the same floor as well. Man, that's gonna take some serious digging to find that one comment in that old thread.

[nikvoodoo]

I read where KC said they were on the same floor as well. Man, that's gonna take some serious digging to find that one comment in that old thread.

http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?1733-Chapter-22-quot-Our-Doubts-Are-Traitors-quot-part-2&p=17703#post17703


Maybe if its not too spoilery Kc can clear that up because I was positive the armory would be on the same floor as the guard room like it had been before the war. Obviously that isn't the case.
Burt's room is not on the same floor as the guard room. Not any more anyway.

Found it!

[Grognaurd]

Great get Nik. I am so anxious to know that I have most likely over analyzed the timing.

But this section of the story confuses me. If they really were as high in the tower as you indicate, then Kalani could most likely not make it to Datu in time.

But, the shooting occurs about noon. Why so late? Saul and Burt find the chopper the night before. Before they can go anywhere Kalani has to OK the chopper? Why the hell do they wait until noon to send Kalani and Datu?

We are running out of time in the day for all the events.

Noon
Datu and Kalani Arrive about 1:00. It may be later, but I do not want to go back right now.
Pegs and victor arrive about 2:30
Say some frogging around until 3:00
Kalani and Burt go back to the tower to get Riley and Angel about 4:00
5:00 they leave the second chopper (probably more)
5:30 they drop off Angel and return to LA
6:00 Michael gets to LAX
7:00 golf course.

We seem to be able to cram everything in, but it is tight.

This begs the question why wait so late to send Kalani and Datu? Prepping to leave the tower is moot if the helicopter is broken. Hope arrives the morning of day 1. By day to noon Datu has the sound hooked up for Hope?..... With all the shit going on, Datu hooks up speakers when they plan to get the hell out of dodge ASAP?

If I put my reality guy hat on, it appears Datu hooks up the outside microphones only to ensure Hope would be in the guard room as an alibi.

It was Datus ex-wife. She still loves him anD was afraid Pippin was going to get lucky. OK, maybe not.

Ah crap, gotta run. More later maybe

[HardKor]

Well, I just finally got around to listening to WND 29 and it has gotten the wheels in my head turning about Kalani.
I'm still riding my "Riley is the rat" thery to the bitter end but this popped into my head and I haven't seen it mentioned yet so here goes:

Kalani says he flew from Hawaii and crashed at LAX and that only three people made it off the tarmac. If Kalani is one of those three and this Hannah (most likely the redhead from the Golf Course) is the second, then who's the third? What if the third person was Pippin? I know he claimed to have been hiking nearby when the outbreak occured, but we know he was sent as a spy by the Mallers so that story could have been a lie like his escape story.

So I'm going to throw out this possibility: Kalani, Hannah, and Pippin escape from the tarmac only to be captured by the Mallers. Kalani gets sent to infiltrate The Other Tower with the Mallers holding Hannah hostage as collateral. The Other Tower falls and Kalani is taken to the Arena where he is rescued by folks from The Tower. At first he acts as a mole by contacting the Mallers during the party, but after the War he chooses to break contact. Pippin is then sent in to reestablish contact and is shot by Kalani to cover his secret.

[7oddisdead]

Well, I just finally got around to listening to WND 29 and it has gotten the wheels in my head turning about Kalani.
I'm still riding my "Riley is the rat" thery to the bitter end but this popped into my head and I haven't seen it mentioned yet so here goes:

Kalani says he flew from Hawaii and crashed at LAX and that only three people made it off the tarmac. If Kalani is one of those three and this Hannah (most likely the redhead from the Golf Course) is the second, then who's the third? What if the third person was Pippin? I know he claimed to have been hiking nearby when the outbreak occured, but we know he was sent as a spy by the Mallers so that story could have been a lie like his escape story.

So I'm going to throw out this possibility: Kalani, Hannah, and Pippin escape from the tarmac only to be captured by the Mallers. Kalani gets sent to infiltrate The Other Tower with the Mallers holding Hannah hostage as collateral. The Other Tower falls and Kalani is taken to the Arena where he is rescued by folks from The Tower. At first he acts as a mole by contacting the Mallers during the party, but after the War he chooses to break contact. Pippin is then sent in to reestablish contact and is shot by Kalani to cover his secret.

I have flown this up the flagpole in the past( not entirely sure where, possibly the crackpot thread) and to me it seems a very reasonable answer...another thing you could note to that as a connection would be

Riley was a chef, correct?...just before pippin was shot, he was discussing food with Kelly. Seemed to be quite the conesiuer(sp? Damn autocorrect not working)...but he could possibly know of riley that way, and up to that point I don't believe they had seen one another...just helping your riley case

nice theory anyways! :D

[HardKor]

Well damn,
I had a feeling someone might have gotten to this one already, but I didn't see it so I figured I'd throw it up here. :p

[7oddisdead]

Well damn,
I had a feeling someone might have gotten to this one already, but I didn't see it so I figured I'd throw it up here. :p

yea...we're kinda running out of ways to spin this thing...i fear the things I spew from my mouth(or keyboard)..are gonna start getting borderline ridiculous soon..

[reaper239]

yea...we're kinda running out of ways to spin this thing...i fear the things I spew from my mouth(or keyboard)..are gonna start getting borderline ridiculous soon..

borderline? SOON? where have you been

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Should change the poll from "unknown" to "Red Shirt". LOL

Remember the question about the alarm and which floor the armory was on..
How does one trip the alarm and make it up the stairs and to the room to pop Pippen and not be seen. Sounds like the work of two.

[nikvoodoo]

Should change the poll from "unknown" to "Red Shirt". LOL

Remember the question about the alarm and which floor the armory was on..
How does one trip the alarm and make it up the stairs and to the room to pop Pippen and not be seen. Sounds like the work of two.

Because the wire was cut near the security room and someone could sneak into an adjacent apartment as to not be seen.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Because the wire was cut near the security room and someone could sneak into an adjacent apartment as to not be seen.

right, cut at or near the source. So.. if they ducked into a side room, they still would have had to run up the stairs, which means:
1. They ran up and then hid
2 They hid on the same floor, waited until Mike and Angel got there then slipped upstairs
3. Hid, ran up the stairs and hid again.

[Test subject 9]

That is a lot of running and hiding for one person.

[Anarchist Bunny]

There is another Rat moment that allows us to narrow the field somewhat. The first shot of the War, that gave the Mallers the instigation they didn't really need to try and hostilely take the Tower. Been a while since I listened to the War, but I think that puts all military, Bill, and Pegs out of the running.

I've been in the Kelly camp for some time, though I may be wrong as she is the sensible obvious choice and KC may go for someone more surprising. As opposed to the re-cock-ulous obvious choice of Kalani, who to be the rat had to be inserted into the other tower by the mallers with the plan being that the zombies would successfully raid that tower, take Kalani prisoner, that those from the Tower would go to the arena and rescue him before he was killed, so that they could bring him back, where he would then have to TIME TRAVEL get to know everyone, leak that info over the CB, and to set up the theft of the ammunition which happened as he was near dead from shock in the Humvee with an IV in him.

Kelly fits the best, enough so that she may be there to throw us off the tracks of the real rat. She had the motive as she was not happy with the leadership prior to the war. Michael suspects the rat had a change of heart, and killed Pippin in order to keep their treachery secret. Kelly has a very obvious change of heart with her opposition to leadership when Tommy dies. She was the one that pushed alcohol at the party(been a while since i listened to season one, but I do remember going back looking for Kelly clues and to paraphrase her comment during the party planning "Who cares as long as there is plenty of boose). Also iirc, and this is rather vague memory, I think she was one of the first people to show up after the shooting of Pippin.

Pegs and Riley don't really seem to fit to me, as the plan for the War on the Mallers/Rat side was to get everyone drunk and then instigate a conflict by shots coming from the Tower first. This would lead to a conflict and all the military being killed and then the Tower surrenders. While that would be a perfectly fine plan to Kelly, it requires the death of Riley and Pegs love interest.

[7oddisdead]

right, cut at or near the source. So.. if they ducked into a side room, they still would have had to run up the stairs, which means:
1. They ran up and then hid
2 They hid on the same floor, waited until Mike and Angel got there then slipped upstairs
3. Hid, ran up the stairs and hid again.

this brings up a good point, so the wire was cut outside the security room(4th floor). angel leaves there and heads up the stairs, fairly clean line of sight from his vantage point to 4th floor hall to stairway to burts armory(5th floor). michael leaves his position on the 6th floor, line of sight for the 6th floor, stairway, and 5th floor. so based on that info, we can all but eliminate anyone who was located at the sixth floor or above at the time of shooting. probably the easiest way for the shooter to have done it would be

cut the wire (outside sercurity room,4th floor)
duck into vacant room till angel heads upstairs(still 4th floor)
angel up the stairs, michael down the stairs...shoot pippin
leave that floor and head down (3rd floor or lower)

lurking at or around the security room would only raise attention to your presence. and heading up the stairs would make you visually noticeable after the shots were taken(see allegedly drunk riley)...heading down the stairs would be a far quicker way to take yourself away from the situation, far less effort to go down -vs-up..

now, who do we know was on a floor lower than the 3rd?

[nikvoodoo]

One other thing to consider: people arriving mid confusion to check on an alarm would be less suspicious. So it could be that the killer went back to the same room to listen through the paper thin walls for an opportunity to "investigate" the disturbance.

[7oddisdead]

Right, I'm guessing your thinking the Kelly angle...thought about that one as I was saying the above bit...what you said would be the likely scenario in that case...(or for anyone else lurking we didn't notice/hear from)

[Th3_T3ch]

I said this first and built an accurate theory, THE RAT IS KALANI!

[7oddisdead]

I said this first and built an accurate theory, THE RAT IS KALANI!

you know, up until the last chapter i would have agreed with you. several characters have been given "just enough" evidence to make them a possible rat. but in truth, kalani has been portayed the most "rat-like". had he simply died, and left his journals behind as evidence as to the hows and whys of what he did..i for one would have been satisfied. im quite sure the backstory to the "that was my hannah" thing is quite the heartbreaker,and would have put a nice closing on a mid-way point of the story

but thats not what happened

instead we are presented with this entirely new scenario, one where a person from (presumably) the other tower is still alive. and she just so hapens to (presumably) be the mythical CJ. that puts a whole new spin on things. im quite sure we will hear even more tales of kalani being not quite shady, but at the very least questionable at the other tower. just adding more fuel to the fire. this does not sit well with me, i smell a red herring, as do many others on here. ultimately i think it will come down to one of the core members of the original group. and in the end,the things he/she did early on (pre-the party) will be the downfall of everybody we have come to know. hats off to KC for doing it the right way

[nikvoodoo]

Right, I'm guessing your thinking the Kelly angle...thought about that one as I was saying the above bit...what you said would be the likely scenario in that case...(or for anyone else lurking we didn't notice/hear from)

At this point, I'm just enjoying throwing fuel onto every possible fire. I'm pretty much leaving my vote at Datu and riding it to glory knowing I'm wrong. So I'll just sit here and fan the flames of all theories. :)

[7oddisdead]

At this point, I'm just enjoying throwing fuel onto every possible fire. I'm pretty much leaving my vote at Datu and riding it to glory knowing I'm wrong. So I'll just sit here and fan the flames of all theories. :)

I've got your back. King datu...the most overlooked of possibilities..hes the one pulling the Keyser soze..not skittles

[Zombiphobe]

My hesitation about Datu being the rat is that he's been with the Tower from the start. Michael and crew discovered him trapped in the elevator way back when. To me, that would instill a heavy loyalty and gratitude to the group and I have a hard time seeing him betray them in such a manner. As valuable as his mechanical skills are, he still depends on the others in the Tower for his survival. He's also part of the core group with strong ties of friendship. As compelling as this might be from a storytelling perspective, to be betrayed by someone from the original group, I just don't see how the Mallers could persuade him to turn traitor.

For this same reason I have a hard time believing it could be Pegs or Riley (coupled with their romantic connections within the Tower).

[7oddisdead]

And that's the allure, the genius of it! :D

(I honestly don't have a clue, but I kinda like the idea of the entire datu persona being an act)

edit: at some point ill work up a very detailed speculative "datu's the rat" scenario. its fairly interesting, in my mind at least

[Zombiphobe]

at some point ill work up a very detailed speculative "datu's the rat" scenario. its fairly interesting, in my mind at least

I look forward to reading it. I don't recall Datu leaving the Tower much on missions, and the only time he was unaccompanied outside of the Tower was when he was being carried back to the Arena, so I'm curious to hear how the Datu=Rat scenario would play out.

[fridginators]

For a long time I was thinking Angel, but I think his relationship with Scratch works itself in a different way.

Can't believe how many people are sticking with King Datu the Resourceful.

Kelly seems too obvious. I like the Pegs theories, but I don't particularly believe she could justify it to herself, unless she mistakenly believes that selling out to the Mallers will make them all safer. She cares about Michael too much. And as for Kalani, I agree with what 7odd said.

So who else? Riley...? But what on earth would her motivation be?

[Kc]

I voted for Michael because he's the one who outed a rat to begin with. He's the one who started this whole discussion and it'd be really cool if he just did it to screw with everyone.


------
BTW. this is a joke.

[7oddisdead]

alright..the datu theory (im not 100% prepared on this one..but ill piece it together)
.
in the beginning. datu was found at the tower...thats all fine and dandy, nothing suspicious there. now, later after the first attack on the tower during clean-up, kelly makes a comment about how gross this all is..datu says (paraphrasing) "meh..ive cleaned up worse." few have made notice of this.
at no point did datu have any involvement or interaction with the mallers...but he certainly was within the inner circle who would have heard of the "whos and whats" they are/were. knowledge that could easily be used to his advantage. in the early chapters, im sure datu had no other intentions than survival.

bringing us to the arena, this is a strong area of question for me. the timeline of datu/kalani's rescue and angel/riley's arrival doesn't add up. angel/riley were alledgededly in the pile for "hours" meaning there was a fair amount of time between samatha being taken and the rescue.(zombie sounds also dont match up with points in time within the narrative) plenty of alone time for datu/kalani to uh, discuss things. such as how kalanis "hannah" is now with the mallers, no reason for kalani not to talk...as far as he knew, datu would be the last person he would speak to... ever

the war...im a little fuzzy on datus placement during the party/ and the after-party(mallers arrival)...i may have been drunk with everyone else. ill come back to that after a lil more research, i think i had something in there somewhere.

after the war, datu and kalani were very "buddy-buddy" in fact, they were the two most viament to leave the tower. asking for supplies to make it on their own. when that plan fell through, kalani stuck his nose right in the middle of burts bees-wax and datu went back to his poor datu bees-wax. the real point of interest for me was how after the dust settled. datu was one of the most adamant to leave.

the pippin situation...heres where the theory gets interesting. so remember the arena thing i was talking about /\ up there? so just prior to pippins shooting, when steven was whining about gaurd duty...datu was on the roof...with kalani. datu would have all the info about pippins arrival from the converstion held in the basement. convey that info to kalani and the seed has been laid (YES, IM STILL BUYING THAT KALANI SHOT PIPPIN) but it was datu who set the trap for kalani to do it. the thing to keep in mind about pippin is, one of the first things he mentions at arrival is he's very good with faces, pippins reaction at the shooting seems to be someone hes yet to see in the tower....one of the few people we know he didn't see was kalani.

a few other things i can throw into this pile
names: durai is indian for "chief"..datu is phillipino for "chief"( not much, but its something)
datu mentions his kids are still back in luzon(sp?) and his brother helped him get a job in the states, one could speculate based on the few bits above that durai is datus brother(total speculation)
in many ways this theory doesn't hold up well..but to me its all the little bits in between that could be the catalyst to something larger. ultimately, if i were to put datu in the "rat" position, his ultimate goal would be to get back to his children..by any means nessecary. the one person who got him to america, may be the one person who could help him get home again. its a crazy stretch, i know..and ill probly work on it some more, i need to start another relisten...but hey. its something different. :)

[Grognaurd]

I will help you with the war.

Datu does not come to the party. He is still sick in bed so to speak. Saul makes the comment about there is nothing wrong with him. I think Michael says that not all the wounds are on the outside and Angel adds how horrific it really was.

I do not recall any more until Burt gets to the Roof. YEs he wants to leave the building but a plan has not been formulated. With no plan, Datu loses hope and does not want to talk to Burt. The excuse he uses is he is leading people in prayer.

Cheetos:
incongruity here. Burt says we ran out of these weeks ago. If that is the case, all it proves is Bill (or someone) started stealing weeks ago or that Bill had some of his own.
The relationship of finding something that disappeared weeks ago to the stuff missing now is not really an A to B jump. But, when at the end of the rope it is worth checking. So, Bill is the thief or Bill was framed. My problem with Bill as the thief is that theft is an aspect of greed. A greedy person does not show up at the party to share his best hooch. For me it is more likely that his fear has eased. Especially with the help Burt gave him with the Gun and the medical treatment.

Datu/Hope
Hope comes from the colony.
The Plan is to GTFO ASAP.
Datu has to repair the chopper.

But in that 24 hour period he determines that his highest Priority is to hook up speakers so Hope can help with guard duty?

[reaper239]

alright..the datu theory (im not 100% prepared on this one..but ill piece it together)
.
in the beginning. datu was found at the tower...thats all fine and dandy, nothing suspicious there. now, later after the first attack on the tower during clean-up, kelly makes a comment about how gross this all is..datu says (paraphrasing) "meh..ive cleaned up worse." few have made notice of this.
at no point did datu have any involvement or interaction with the mallers...but he certainly was within the inner circle who would have heard of the "whos and whats" they are/were. knowledge that could easily be used to his advantage. in the early chapters, im sure datu had no other intentions than survival.

bringing us to the arena, this is a strong area of question for me. the timeline of datu/kalani's rescue and angel/riley's arrival doesn't add up. angel/riley were alledgededly in the pile for "hours" meaning there was a fair amount of time between samatha being taken and the rescue.(zombie sounds also dont match up with points in time within the narrative) plenty of alone time for datu/kalani to uh, discuss things. such as how kalanis "hannah" is now with the mallers, no reason for kalani not to talk...as far as he knew, datu would be the last person he would speak to... ever

the war...im a little fuzzy on datus placement during the party/ and the after-party(mallers arrival)...i may have been drunk with everyone else. ill come back to that after a lil more research, i think i had something in there somewhere.

after the war, datu and kalani were very "buddy-buddy" in fact, they were the two most vehement to leave the tower. asking for supplies to make it on their own. when that plan fell through, kalani stuck his nose right in the middle of burts bees-wax and datu went back to his poor datu bees-wax. the real point of interest for me was how after the dust settled. datu was one of the most adamant to leave.

the pippin situation...heres where the theory gets interesting. so remember the arena thing i was talking about /\ up there? so just prior to pippins shooting, when steven was whining about gaurd duty...datu was on the roof...with kalani. datu would have all the info about pippins arrival from the converstion held in the basement. convey that info to kalani and the seed has been laid (YES, IM STILL BUYING THAT KALANI SHOT PIPPIN) but it was datu who set the trap for kalani to do it. the thing to keep in mind about pippin is, one of the first things he mentions at arrival is he's very good with faces, pippins reaction at the shooting seems to be someone hes yet to see in the tower....one of the few people we know he didn't see was kalani.

a few other things i can throw into this pile
names: durai is indian for "chief"..datu is phillipino for "chief"( not much, but its something)
datu mentions his kids are still back in luzon(sp?) and his brother helped him get a job in the states, one could speculate based on the few bits above that durai is datus brother(total speculation)
in many ways this theory doesn't hold up well..but to me its all the little bits in between that could be the catalyst to something larger. ultimately, if i were to put datu in the "rat" position, his ultimate goal would be to get back to his children..by any means nessecary. the one person who got him to america, may be the one person who could help him get home again. its a crazy stretch, i know..and ill probly work on it some more, i need to start another relisten...but hey. its something different. :)

when they rescued datu and kalani, wasn't kalani near comotose? from what i remember, he didn't say anything to sam or datu the entire time.

also, we have no reason to believe that datu was here state side illegally. assuming he was legal, it stands to reason that his brother was merely someone with connections who was able to secure him employment. if he was here illegally then he would've come in through specific channels. either way it is unlikely that his brother was directly involved in transporting him from... wherever, i forget where he's from, to america.

[7oddisdead]

Legal status never even crossed my mind. datu was taking classes, in most cases im aware of...you need an overkill of identification to even sign up for school...not questioning that.

[reaper239]

Legal status never even crossed my mind. datu was taking classes, in most cases im aware of...you need an overkill of identification to even sign up for school...not questioning that.

depends where you are, not turning this into an immigration thread, but in some places you can sign up for classes without being a legal immigrant, ora legal citizen.

[Nathan.Luiz]

I feel there is sufficient evidence for Riley, her location during the party (Tells Pegs she's going, doesn't say where or tell anyone else), and her location extremely close to the guard room at the time of Pippen getting shot. I haven't thought of a motivation for her yet though.

[7oddisdead]

Right..so it could be...and..lets drop this

[Zombiphobe]

Like Reaper, I too thought Kalani was practically comatose/passed out until the resuers arrived. This of course could have just been how Datu recorded it in his journal.

However, when I weigh the Datu theory against the Kalani theory, I still feel there is a lot more to suggest Kalani as the Rat.

[reaper239]

I feel there is sufficient evidence for Riley, her location during the party (Tells Pegs she's going, doesn't say where or tell anyone else), and her location extremely close to the guard room at the time of Pippen getting shot. I haven't thought of a motivation for her yet though.

but she smelled noticably of booze, to the point that when she came around hope soon after, hope was able to smell it on her. hope said she did not smell it when pippin was shot.

[killericon]

The way Kc has writen it, its as though he indicates that this person is the rat but then shows evidence why they cant be, i think the question shouldnt be who is that rats it should be who are the rats...

[killericon]

as in we find out in the latest episodes that kalani was working (un willingly) with the maulers along with pippin (who in the past left him and his daughter to die) so he had a reason to shoot pippin but he was with the chopper at the time.

it wouldnt be kelly because if it was surely tar wouldnt have tried to rape her and scratch would have recognised her

kelly was a lawyer and some of the maulers may have been her clients in the past (may have become friends)

saul was in prison at one point (i know it wasnt high security) but he may have met and befriended one of the maulers while he was there and he diddnt realy know michael and angel until the outbreak (maybe the maulers told saul they had is mom)

Burt diddnt exactly abide by the law and maybe some of the maulers could have been his customers but then the maulers would have no leaverage over him and he was out when pippin was shot anyway

Bill, why would he want his own tower destroyed?

there has to be more than 1 person in on this....

[Th3_T3ch]

So am I not getting any kind of reward for totally getting the rat right? Seriously, my complete theory is soooooo freaking close to the actual happenings that I'm partially suspect to Kc tweaking my story and putting it in.

[7oddisdead]

So am I not getting any kind of reward for totally getting the rat right? Seriously, my complete theory is soooooo freaking close to the actual happenings that I'm partially suspect to Kc tweaking my story and putting it in.

hmm...i have some humble pie...would you like a slice? Seriously, only jumping on here to spout off about how you did such a great job with "predicting" what would happen just sounds/looks bad man...slow your roll...i just had to jump in and say that...couldn't take it any more...

[Osiris]

How is this poll still open?

[nikvoodoo]

Quite Simply: I forgot to close it.