Chapter 25- Inadequate Strength part 2

[nikvoodoo]

Thoughts on part two go here. Enjoy!

[daredevil]

When Michael and that are talking about dead people... "Everyone I knew 4 months ago is dead" It felt like it didn't have the same amount of intensity of words as when say, Michael
s chatting with Kelly right after Saul's surgery. Just not as much sadness.

[Adventureless_Hero]

I disagree. I feel like I heard a wavering in Michael's voice that seemed to say, "I'm done repressing this shit. It's too much to bear, I ACTUALLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT."

GREAT EFFING EPISODE. It was much needed. I am so glad the gang didn't just hustle their bustles, but rather chose to hunker down, take it slow and deal. Oh and, FUCKING RILEY!

[daredevil]

I disagree. I feel like I heard a wavering in Michael's voice that seemed to say, "I'm done repressing this shit. It's too much to bear, I ACTUALLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT."

GREAT EFFING EPISODE. It was much needed. I am so glad the gang didn't just hustle their bustles, but rather chose to hunker down, take it slow and deal. Oh and, FUCKING RILEY!
I change my statement. Michael wanted to talk and the others didn't go deep enough into stuff to make a difference to Michael..... Michael was left wanting more..... Just like Pegs.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

Great episode. I enjoy the banter between Saul and Victor, but it seems like one of them is gonna get killed during or if they do find Lizzy (probably Victor), who I can only assume is still with the Mallers. Nice little touch at the end with the jambalaya, good thing I remembered who it was or I would have been backtracking to find out who. The cliffhanger at the end was good, definitely left me wanting next week's episode to find out what happened. Oh well, until next week =P. ("In-depth" analysis later maybe, still tired XD).

[nikvoodoo]

Many thanks for the acknowledgment of the ambiguous nature of Riley's feelings!

And is there any snark like Datu snark? I think not!

[Adventureless_Hero]

The way Riley just woke up and had heard Michael mention Angel tells me that she was possibly the one providing that muted POV of the chapter 24 recap that opened this season.

[daredevil]

The way Riley just woke up and had heard Michael mention Angel tells me that she was possibly the one providing that muted POV of the chapter 24 recap that opened this season.
Possible but Tayna's a trained Vet. There's no way someone could just "pretend" to be asleep.

[Adventureless_Hero]

I don't think she was pretending, but I do believe she was in and out of it a bit, like a concussion with intermittent consciousness.

Going back to when Riley said she checked the farm for corn and wheat only to find it was rotting, does that me she went to the farm house or just scoped out the field?

[wh33t]

I'm not sure what to think about this episode.

[HardKor]

Great episode. It feels like were back into the full swing of things now.
It was good to hear the acknowledgment of all the red shirts that died, especially Michael acknowledging that he left Lewis locked up. I'm glad they didn't just let that pass unmentioned.
Also, Saul and Victor planning to head back to the Tower after the dust settles. If the stinger from chapter 24 took place later, maybe Saul and Victor might catch the Mallers there, or see them leaving and follow.
Finally, my wild ass theory of the day: Lewis isn't dead...he'll pop up later looking for revenge. I know it won't happen, but seriously how fun would that be?

[Bray]

Really enjoyed it (as always) a nice slow episode (guess you can't go around knocking buildings over like Jenga). Loved the little bit about Riley's best friend and lover haha nice one KC.

I think Angel has got to be dead. He was on the roof when it went down.

Also what have I missed. Michelangelo saying he didn't get on with Burt? I know they had some Barnes but I thought they still got on...

[cupcakezombie]

Oh Riley, what are you doing? Please don't get yourself or anyone else hurt.
Yay to Pegs for landing well.
I am loving seeing Michael become more... human in a way. By that I mean more willing to allow other people in his life, for good and bad. No man is an island Michael.
I am looking forward to seeing how Vic and Saul fall into a team. I think the reason that they rub each other the wrong way is that they are pretty similar in a lot of ways, so this dynamic is going to be good to 'watch' unfold.

[nikvoodoo]

Also what have I missed. Michelangelo saying he didn't get on with Burt? I know they had some Barnes but I thought they still got on...

They've never got along except when they had to. Alpha males tend to butt heads. They are both very much alphas

[Grognaurd]

I gotta grumble a bit here. When the groups get further fractured it slows things down for me. Let's see, I like cohesion

Michael et al with the chopper
Riley
Saul / Vic
Lizzy
critically injured dude found by Bricks...
...who was put with the old man (men)?
Skittles
Randy (almost certainly not human)
And my "If there aint no body than nobody is dead" So...
Minor characters
Red Shirts

Some below are much more periferral than Red Shirts, but I feel some or all will be back
Maller Group North
Maller Group South
Slaves + Mallers taken to the Hospital after the ambush but before Burt et al get there for the chopper.
Maller group South
Colony Peeps
Second Tower dudes other than hope

I do not know what type of Coyotes you have out west. Maybe they have lost their fear of people. But out here it is next to impossible to get the drop on them. Even at 200 yards down wind they will see me and alter their path. The only time I do get the drop on them is from inside the house while looking out the window. Even then, they will not cross the mowed lawn. They stay to the field even in the Spring when there is no cover. It is like one tells the other, Dude, don't walk on the old man's grass he's nuts!

[Bray]

They've never got along except when they had to. Alpha males tend to butt heads. They are both very much alphas

Wow just realised how much auto correct changed in that sentence haha, yeah I'd always picked up on the 'alpha male' I wanna be on top thing, just never would have classed it as a dislike...but in my world I like to pretend everyone gets on just fine :)

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

And is there any snark like Datu snark? I think not!

Only voodoo snark even comes close! :D

Just playing nikvoodoo

But I guess the way Riley reacted to the news that Angel was (probably) toast finally confirms her feelings for him and at the very least establishes that she is not a full lesbian, just bi-curious or straight :cool:

[Kc]

They've never got along except when they had to. Alpha males tend to butt heads. They are both very much alphas

Just curious, and a way to further this discussion, what qualities make either one an alpha?

[Litmaster]

I think Angel has got to be dead. He was on the roof when it went down.

I don't know, Bray. I can't see KC just cutting Shane out of the 2nd half of the series after he played such a big part in the first half. Aside from that, the only way I can imagine that Angel would've survived is if he was somehow able to climb down the loose bit of rope that was still attached to his side before the building collapsed...

[Litmaster]

And by the way:
Hey KC! Can you quit fucking around and get Burt back into the story, please?! We've been waiting nearly five months to find out what happened to Shirley!!!

[cupcakezombie]

I think that the ability to be self-assurred about their own decisions and thought processes, and a confidence that their own plan is correct (both good and bad decisions). Both Michael and Burt both...

[7oddisdead]

Just curious, and a way to further this discussion, what qualities make either one an alpha?

To me, I agree with the majority of cupcakes points. The main thing I have to question is would an alpha male even let himself get into a position where his authority was openly questioned? I'm doubtful of that.... In my mind a good example of the "alpha" personality would be Marcus..and we see how things worked out for a person like that in a situation like this...be glad michael/burt are not true "alphas". Close? Maybe...

[cupcakezombie]

To me, I agree with the majority of cupcakes points. The main thing I have to question is would an alpha male even let himself get into a position where his authority was openly questioned? I'm doubtful of that.... In my mind a good example of the "alpha" personality would be Marcus..and we see how things worked out for a person like that in a situation like this...be glad michael/burt are not true "alphas". Close? Maybe...

I think Alphas can be questioned, it is more that they put themselves to be in the position of power rather then how hard they hold onto it. Marcus was an alpha who ruled by force, but Burt and Michael were alphas that trie to rule more fairly.

[Ra1th]

I gotta grumble a bit here. When the groups get further fractured it slows things down for me. Let's see, I like cohesion

Michael et al with the chopper
Riley
Saul / Vic
Lizzy
critically injured dude found by Bricks...
...who was put with the old man (men)?
Skittles
Randy (almost certainly not human)
And my "If there aint no body than nobody is dead" So...
Minor characters
Red Shirts

Some below are much more periferral than Red Shirts, but I feel some or all will be back
Maller Group North
Maller Group South
Slaves + Mallers taken to the Hospital after the ambush but before Burt et al get there for the chopper.
Maller group South
Colony Peeps
Second Tower dudes other than hope

I do not know what type of Coyotes you have out west. Maybe they have lost their fear of people. But out here it is next to impossible to get the drop on them. Even at 200 yards down wind they will see me and alter their path. The only time I do get the drop on them is from inside the house while looking out the window. Even then, they will not cross the mowed lawn. They stay to the field even in the Spring when there is no cover. It is like one tells the other, Dude, don't walk on the old man's grass he's nuts!

The coyotes here will come pretty close to people. Like especially on bike trails and stuff. You wont see 'em during the day, but early morning and late at night, it's not an irregular to see one. The big reason is cause people just built their houses all over coyote territory so they're still around. Like you'll see warnings posted about letting animals out at night, cause sometimes coyotes kill em

[cupcakezombie]

The coyotes here will come pretty close to people. Like especially on bike trails and stuff. You wont see 'em during the day, but early morning and late at night, it's not an irregular to see one. The big reason is cause people just built their houses all over coyote territory so they're still around. Like you'll see warnings posted about letting animals out at night, cause sometimes coyotes kill em

And was Michael was the one who left the tray out, it was his flavour.

[7oddisdead]

Yes. Yes of course...michael/burt just don't strike me as the true "alpha" type in general. If you think back to the very beginning and the way everyone naturally looked to Michael as the one in...

[kek]

The coyotes here will come pretty close to people. Like especially on bike trails and stuff. You wont see 'em during the day, but early morning and late at night, it's not an irregular to see one. The big reason is cause people just built their houses all over coyote territory so they're still around. Like you'll see warnings posted about letting animals out at night, cause sometimes coyotes kill em

Yeah, we used to see coyotes at soccer practice all the time. They get bold sometimes, one even came really close to the field we were playing on. And without as many humans around, the animals are bound to notice and start to come out more. We don't know if the zombies eat the animals or not, but if they don't then the animals will become bolder and go where they had learned to avoid because of humans.

[Ra1th]

I think Alphas can be questioned, it is more that they put themselves to be in the position of power rather then how hard they hold onto it. Marcus was an alpha who ruled by force, but Burt and Michael were alphas that trie to rule more fairly.

see that's the thing thoug. I don't think either of them are true alphas. Neither of them took a leadership role. When Saul was asked, "what's the plan?" and "where do we go from here" all he had to offer was i dont know, i dont know. Neither of them really took command. I mean I suppose there was no way Victor was really going to be able to get Saul to follow him, but even when Victor offered to follow Saul, Saul kinda turned him down and told him to piss off.

I'd say alphas are those who take leadership and take control of the situation. Like, Burt and Michael, what these guys are doing seem more like the bare minimum to survive.

[Ra1th]

I'd disagree to that. If the leader has made bad decisions in the group's eyes, then they'd choose another leader regardless of whether or not the original leader was an alpha or not.

[7oddisdead]

I'd disagree to that. If the leader has made bad decisions in the group's eyes, then they'd choose another leader regardless of whether or not the original leader was an alpha or not.

see last sentence in my post. Voodoo can keep this whole devils advocate gig...i hate trying to argue against opinions
I agree with for the sake of argument. I'm just trying to bring some other examples of the alpha type into the discussion.

[HardKor]

Both Michael and Burt share a sort of &quot;loner mentality&quot; <br />
Michael has made it pretty clear that he doesn't really want to be in charge, but feels like he has to be. When something goes wrong and...

[Litmaster]

Yes. I always thought that an 'alpha male' is the guy who always insists that he is in the right, that his idea is the best, that his plan is the most practical / sensible / workable / economical /...

[reaper239]

victor was pissing me off, he sounded like a prick the whole time. i mean, saul is trying to get them squared away and victor is swimming upstream the whole time. i bet if he'd asked nicely for some of the MRE, they would've avoided the whole fight.

[Pikepaw]

Victor sounded like more of a prick in this episode than before, but Saul wasn't really helping. Of course they are tired and hungry, I can become quite an unpleasant person if I am starving and exhausted too. Thus I'm willing to cut them some slack. Plus Victor has always been somewhat of an ass, it has kept him alive.

Hands down my favourite part was when Kelly was wondering about Riley's sexuality. It was like she had been on the forums and seen us all discussing it. I did find it slightly strange, because except for one snark remark Victor made about Angel never being able to touch Riley, none of the other characters have discussed or hinted in dialogue the mystery of who Riley likes. Still Kelly was a hoot in this episode.

One of the reasons I love this series is how human everyone is. They have to stop and emotionally deal with the fact that everyone is dead. Michael knows everything in the world except how relationships work and CANNOT take a hint. Sometimes I want to slap the guy because Pegs was being obvious. Saul and Victor are running on the ends of the ropes, leading to each others throats. The two people Riley cares most about are in LA and she will go back and find them on foot dammnit! Despite the fact she probably can't find her way, it's a suicide mission and pretty dang far at this point. I always found Angel's flirtation with Riley pretty cute and cheered him on when he went all out protecting her ("DON'T! TOUCH! HER!"). I was touched when Riley's first questions were all about Angel, where is he, and is he okay. They were talking about Burt at the same time, but she could only worry about Angel. Made me smile despite the man tear that was lurking behind my eye.

Lastly, I am worried about Saul's medicine. Tanya said if he doesn't get the drip started at the right time, then the drugs will be ineffective. Too little time between doses and he will overdose (They said it is powerful, last resort stuff, and any drug can mess you up if you have too much in your system). Too much time between letting his drip run and the infection will been given time to get resistant or something. Saul's watch breaking might have killed him

[clem131]

With the last two episodes it feels like the story is still winded, sitting back against the wall and recovering from the exhausting season finale. I feel a bit like Arthur LaMarche: the characters are fractioning in progressively smaller chunks and that can only slow down the pace. Then again, this is the trend of the season, beginning from the major split up in the finale and continuing along. I have to admit that Riley leaving the group felt a bit too much to me, like "What, MORE LITTLE GROUPS?!"; on the other hand, as they split more and more, desperation creeps in and who knows, it could set the mood for an alone Michael "writing this to keep my own sanity", and building up to some kind of great reunion in this season's finale. Can't wait to see what KC has planned.

[daredevil]

I don't think she was pretending, but I do believe she was in and out of it a bit, like a concussion with intermittent consciousness.

Going back to when Riley said she checked the farm for corn and wheat only to find it was rotting, does that me she went to the farm house or just scoped out the field?
Yeah, I know.


Probably scoped out.

[Jeebogs]

Kind of a slow one, setting the scene, letting everyone know where they are and reflect on things. <br />
<br />
The calm before the storm? <br />
<br />
Saul is being such a dick. I know he's tired, hungry, worried...

[daredevil]

Saul is in love.... still.... That's why he's not thinking logically. <br />
<br />
I disagree, Alpha Males are just Males that become known. They don't try to become known. It just happens naturally.

[Jeebogs]

Saul is in love.... still.... That's why he's not thinking logically.


Well, if that's the case, Love must be pretty scarce in the world, otherwise NOTHING would get done. ;-)

[Grognaurd]

Hmmm.... Alphas?

Yes, they both exert leadership qualities. But, I never chalked the friction up to alpha.

For Michael I think it is more of age difference thing.
Burt hasn't even got outta the hummer before Michael Lashes out at him and discounts him. After Burt helps clean the tower (something that I do not think could be accomplished without Burt and his goodies) Michael still has a chip on his shoulder. Burt shows up afterwards and gives Michael a fancy Pistol with a Silencer. I take handing over a pistol (or sword years ago) is REALLY symbolic from all the movies I have seen. Meet, Surender, terms, give pistol, nah, keep the pistol as asign of respect.

Case 2 Kalani. Kalani has grey throughout his hair and I get the impression he is older. What was Michael's first words? Who the hell is this? as well as Oh, yea, this guy.

Kelly. Lawyer (Lots of school) and two marriages. I put her as older. Michael really leaps for the deep end when michael, Tommy and Kelly are together regarding the video cam. It is smoother now, but there is a lot of water under that bridge. When both were at their lowest they started their bounce back up. Neither was really try to influence the other and they had their Epiphenies in the presence of one another rather than because of the other. This does create a type of bond.

Parents. There is more of a story than has been shown to us in my opinion. We would need to plot it out to be sure, but I get the feeling Michael signed up right after 9/11. His parents did not approve. First tour (idealistic) gung-ho. Third tour (disillusioned) tired and depressed. Hmm... like maybe feeling his parents were right and the Army was not the place for him.

So, for me, with Michael it is not as much alpha or authority as it is age-related.

Burt wants to gear into a well-ordered military machine. He will bare the yoke of a follower, but wants is ideas in a council of war to be considered, not just ignored as they are with Michael. "Just trying to help" "why not go back to my shop" Three I told you-sos in one day. etc. When Michael comes back from the colony, Burt falls right back into squad leader. He tells victor, Michael says you stay here. You could help, but you can't. Later, he still thinks he is in command when Angel arrives. Angel is pushing hard for command and Burt bows out. But, even I can hear the vitriol in his words when told to do someting by Angel.

For Burt, it is following orders. Before the "these cheetos may have just saved our asses", their is no command structure and everyone is pretty much screwed. With the Ammo is found and a chain of command albeit weak, he is back on task and leads the assault to take the fire truck. He does his best when Michael steps down and Angel does not stepup. Sure, there is grumbling about meeting length. But, the tower gets by OK. In fact, his biggest SNAFU when the tower fractures is in fact trying to abide by the rules put in place by MICHAEL. He ties to handle it by sweeping it under the rug till morning. But, Steven goes Ballistic. Burt's brain is realling, he is faced with a Solomonic choice. But, before he can come up with a Split the Baby, Lizzy takes it out of his hands. She makes the call. We know that Burt has a propensity to follow orders and makes the mistake of defaulting back to following rules. Had he stuck with his Buddha Belly and postpone anything irrevocable to the next morhing... Well, we have to rewrite most of Season 2.

well, if you read this far, time for another lesson. General Eisenhower teaches Never rush to make a poor descision.

[nikvoodoo]

Perhaps alpha was the incorrect term to use. What I meant by it was nothing more than both are very strong willed and opinionated. Despite different methods, both look after their "pack" and make decisions for their well being. I still feel that michael is better suited to the task of leading than Burt is. Burt knows it now, but from chapter 3 until 22 Burt was too stubborn to admit it.

Should burt in fact be alive, I'm interested to see how his and michael's relationship shakes out.

[Grognaurd]

Interesting as always Nik. Here comes the ol' better leader.

Michael (Old)
Angel
Burt
Michael (New)
Bouncing Burt
Winged Angel

I think Michael has better charism / tactics.
Burt has far more Combat and Gunplay experience as well as Strategic Sense. Probably because of experience / rank. Gunnery Sgt Burt Scott vs Sgt Michael Cross.
I never served, nasty asthma and allergies, but I want to give a special shoutout and thank you for your service to those that are or have.

Anyway, Gunny is like company level, I think. Say, 100 to 150 people.
Just Sgt is a lot lower like Squad (8-12) or half squad / fire team (4-6)
I am sure there is someone who knows this a lot better than I do and correct it.

Burt is action. Burt will throw the first punch
Michael is reaction setting up the counter-punch.

As the salve owner said to the Gladiator School Owner in Gladiator...
Some are Good for dieing and some are good for Fighting. You, me thinks, need both.

Or something like that.

The emphasis is on the You, me thinks, need both.

[Tandem25]

Just curious, and a way to further this discussion, what qualities make either one an alpha?

I don't see either as true Alphas. They are/were Betas reluctantly put in the Alpha position. I believe that if given the chances to follow a "good" and in Michael's case, righteous Alpha they would both follow obediently. That is if Bert is still alive...

Good Episode. And, as always, I'm looking forward to the next.

[Cabbage Patch]

I want to give Kelly props for stepping up in this episode. No whining, no venting, took the initiative by setting up security on the high ground, and held the fort during Michael's (well-deserved and overdue) meltdown. She's come a long way! I can't help wondering where her character is going--group leader? remorseless zombie hunter? the next fatality, since she's completed her story arc?

[dontkillburt]

And by the way:
Hey KC! Can you quit fucking around and get Burt back into the story, please?! We've been waiting nearly five months to find out what happened to Shirley!!!

These were my thoughts exactly when Burt went AWOL in part 1. Now, with still no update on Burt (or Shirley) after part 2, KC has me frothing at the mouth on his status. But that's okay. I expect a big timer in part 3, when Burt says..."WTF...where am it, and where the hell is Shirley?". I will be happy with that.

For now though, I can live through everyone else's issues, including Saul & Victor's Abbott & Costello routine (the only question being: are they both alpha males or are they both just suffering from PMI?). And then there is Michael. His decision to okay a head-trauma'd Riley run off and take a smoke break then stopping a consoling Pegs (Riley's best and maybe only remaining friend) to "leave her be." The soap continues as Michael tells Saul's mom that both he and Liz were both dead with the proclaimation that "there is no one still alive back there" during his self-pity attack. job. Maybe IT IS the night goggles, Michael, take them off.

Oh boy...you are right litmaster...I can't wait for Burt to get back in action. He will get himself into the mallers arsenal real soon. He probably has a copy of the Locked and Loaded inventory sheet in his back pocket and knows what is missing.

[nikvoodoo]

I don't see either as true Alphas. They are/were Betas reluctantly put in the Alpha position. I believe that if given the chances to follow a "good" and in Michael's case, righteous Alpha they would both follow obediently. That is if Bert is still alive...

Good Episode. And, as always, I'm looking forward to the next.

I can see the burt beta qualities, and also in new mopey-michael. But remember when michael first relinquished control he was mad that he lost whatever he had going and he was done there. That screams alpha personality to me.

But you are right in saying neither is a true alpha. Michael is far closer.

[IamPaul]

My theory. Maybe WA's first suicide, by Riley. Just a crazy idea. Great episode!

[nikvoodoo]

So here's a holy shit wtf is wrong with us moments......

Did anyone look at the artwork for part 2? Anyone else see the big white blob of Behemoth??!! and apologies if it got mentioned in the chatbox right after.....you didn't post it in here....so it doesn't count! :p

I think the depiction by the artist is close to the idea I was thinking of all along... Mr. Hyde from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Really really big in the torso, smallish head...and we can't really see its legs.

[Hellbringer]

The coyotes here will come pretty close to people. Like especially on bike trails and stuff. You wont see 'em during the day, but early morning and late at night, it's not an irregular to see one. The big reason is cause people just built their houses all over coyote territory so they're still around. Like you'll see warnings posted about letting animals out at night, cause sometimes coyotes kill em

Here's a Fort Irwin story that has a coyote in it for youze guys. We were out on the machine gun range testing out our weapons, and we had a coyote come up on our targets while we were shooting. Of course, we didn't know it until we walked down the firing lanes to check our targets for hits and misses and that's when we came up on the coyote body. So I'd say that coyotes in the Death Valley area are pretty gutsy when it comes to people. (I might have relayed this story before on this board before, but with more details. I can't remember; I'm getting too old these days.)

[Pikepaw]

I'll weigh in on the alpha dog issue a little bit. Saul and Victor are not alphas, they are doers. Neither one is a leader, they are the guys that get stuff done. Gunhands, action guys, whatever you...

[Ra1th]

I can see the burt beta qualities, and also in new mopey-michael. But remember when michael first relinquished control he was mad that he lost whatever he had going and he was done there. That screams alpha personality to me.

But you are right in saying neither is a true alpha. Michael is far closer.

I think the bar for "alpha" is being set insanely high here. Why is it so hard to take Burt and Michael as alphas?

[daredevil]

Also, Another reason that Michael was seen as the &quot;Leader&quot; early on is because at the time, Angel was not an Alpha. He was more a &quot;Maybe there's another way.&quot; Now he's a &quot;Maybe we should just kill...

[Luna Guardian]

I think the bar for "alpha" is being set insanely high here. Why is it so hard to take Burt and Michael as alphas?
I agree. Michael is definitely an Alpha by the way of his personality and expertise, same as Burt. But the traits in their personalities that make them Alphas are different, Michael has charisma while burt's just intimidating. The rest would follow either one, 'cause they are the big guys, top dogs, bosses etc.7

Now, back to the actual topic. I liked this episode a lot, it had a lot more going for it than the first episode, which was kind of lackluster in my opinion. I always felt that KC wouldn't let them arrive at Fort Irwin, because that'd give the group access to an insane amount of resources.

Unless something exciting would happen (and knowing KC...), like:
1) The military is still in control of Fort Irwin and presses Michael into service. The rest are allowed to stay on the base, but their movements are restricted. The military's not going to mount a rescue op for a few unimportant civvies and the group will have to plan an escape. Maybe they'll bring along Angel's second cousin (since family reunions seem to be a theme in WA).
2) The military is still in control of Fort Irwin, but has gone renegade (think 28 Days Later). They imprison the group, have evil plans for them and possibly have an alliancce with either Durai or the Colony. The whole shebang is orchestrated by Angel's evil twin brother!
3) The fort is overrun by zombies and the group has to decide wether to risk it or leave. They decide to risk it because of the vast opportunities if they win and in the ensuing liberation of the base, something goes off and there's a huge explosion, destroying most of the heavy armamament. Still, there's a lot intact and the group starts to plan the rescue of their friends in the city. Also, Angel's clone is somehow involved

[Solanine]

First of all, Michael is obviously alpha male HUMAN, in for example a wolf pack, the alpha male is the biggest baddest male, with humans its not quite like that. The fact that Michael became leader without even realising at first (if you remember the scene from early in the show where Angel has to point this out to him) makes him more of an alpha male than Marcus who couldn't inspire confidemnce in his men and so had to Bull shit his way to the top.
Any way, as Luna said back to the topic.
"Chapter 25 Inadequate Length" as I like to call it is really starting to grow on it. After the massive events of season two's finale its nice to take a breath and make time for some serious charecter development thats NOT just killing them off. The Saul and Vic partnership is a nice little combo although they both seem to bring out a tendency to whine in each other.

[yarri]

I agree. Michael is definitely an Alpha by the way of his personality and expertise, same as Burt. But the traits in their personalities that make them Alphas are different, Michael has charisma while burt's just intimidating. The rest would follow either one, 'cause they are the big guys, top dogs, bosses etc.7

Now, back to the actual topic. I liked this episode a lot, it had a lot more going for it than the first episode, which was kind of lackluster in my opinion. I always felt that KC wouldn't let them arrive at Fort Irwin, because that'd give the group access to an insane amount of resources.

Unless something exciting would happen (and knowing KC...), like:
1) The military is still in control of Fort Irwin and presses Michael into service. The rest are allowed to stay on the base, but their movements are restricted. The military's not going to mount a rescue op for a few unimportant civvies and the group will have to plan an escape. Maybe they'll bring along Angel's second cousin (since family reunions seem to be a theme in WA).
2) The military is still in control of Fort Irwin, but has gone renegade (think 28 Days Later). They imprison the group, have evil plans for them and possibly have an alliancce with either Durai or the Colony. The whole shebang is orchestrated by Angel's evil twin brother!
3) The fort is overrun by zombies and the group has to decide wether to risk it or leave. They decide to risk it because of the vast opportunities if they win and in the ensuing liberation of the base, something goes off and there's a huge explosion, destroying most of the heavy armamament. Still, there's a lot intact and the group starts to plan the rescue of their friends in the city. Also, Angel's clone is somehow involved


Ok minus the Angel parts which I'm awarding you the tinfoil hat for the rest of the post was quite logical and all valid points that could happen. Nicely done and I smacked you with the rep wand for it.

[mem]

Didnt Burt decide he didnt like leading? still an Alpha but the Alpha doesnt always say "Here everyone let's organize, classify and analyze." Burt is more of a "hey look something undead" POW Move on.

I wasnt getting the Michael bummed and sad vibe for a bit and it was annoying me. Suddenly i realized that everyting heaped on his shoulders had finally gotten to him after all this time. It was then that i remembered that the writer of this Podcast is a genius and quit questioning what was going on.

Coyotes are typically trying to kill the roadrunner or placing an order with the ACME corporation for new gear to use in killing the aforementioned road runner. Beep Beep

[Adventureless_Hero]

I'm curious as to why Michael is developing stronger bonds with his comrades in the Z-War as apposed to those soldiers he fought along side with in the service, his words not my interpretation. Is it because when he served they followed strict military guidelines whereas here he can spend 24-7 with these people, share in their drama, laughter, and sorrow?

Anyone with military service want to chime in and provide some insight as to how Michael's time spent with the Tower members could differ from that of his time spent with his soldiers in such a way that he'd form closer bonds with these people?

[edit/after thought]
I also had a funny moment when listening to 25-2 again when Michael is saying that no one could have survived. I picture him looking off to the West with teary eyes, meanwhile Saul is back in L.A. saying to Victor "They're not coming back" looking to the East with teary eyes. Then do a split screen of Michael and Saul, both teary eyed... lol, I love it.

[reaper239]

yeah it's a really strange thing, soldiers often comment about the feeling of commraderie they feel in the service being deeper than what they feel with their siblings and whatnot. it might have something to do with him being in military intelligence as opposed to combat arms, since those in combat arms seem to feel it strongest. there is something about relying on someone else to watch your back to keep you from dying that forms this bond. the difference here might be in the amount of action he's seeing with these people. similar things were seen during world war II, soldiers that went through D-Day had a certain bond that the replacements lacked. even soldiers that went through D-Day and were then injured later and missed some other significant event found that they were "out of the loop" so to speak.

[Adventureless_Hero]

Interesting points to ponder:

-Riley was writing in her journal. She asked for the day's date. Perhaps a letter of apology for ditching, her feelings, ...a suicide note? (the last is not likely imo)
-Riley knew that the corn and grain were rotting. Did she check the farm on her own?
-Should we have caught the fact that Riley wasn't really going for a smoke? Last I recall she gave them up when Lizzie was booted from the building (Riley was out having a smoke at the time and swore them off afterwards).

[Grognaurd]

Interesting points to ponder:
-Should we have caught the fact that Riley wasn't really going for a smoke? Last I recall she gave them up when Lizzie was booted from the building (Riley was out having a smoke at the time and swore them off afterwards).

We must remember, that as in real life it is days and days of mundane punctuated with really important things that shape the future.

Chopper 1 is secured by Burt and Saul
Riley tells Angel she is not smoking and storms off.
a few hours later Pippin is shot.
Kalani and datu on their way to Chopper 1.
A few hours later, Saul runs away, they secure Chopper 2
Very soon after Saul comes back
They form the Free Lizzy assault squad
Tower 2 gets hit.
They return to Tower, fly away and land.

Although it has been months and months for us, Season 2 only covers about a week with a lot of it in a 48 hour span.

[Litmaster]

Although it has been months and months for us, Season 2 only covers about a week with a lot of it in a 48 hour span.

Yes, and that is kind of the nature of the beast when it comes to pacing and story details: generally, the longer the time span of the story, the slower the pace (thus less details and more exposition). Conversely, less time = quicker pace and more details and action, although the trade-off with that is that it's difficult to develop characters within such a short time span.

I think Kc has done a good job of working characterization into the action, so that we don't get too many long scenes with nothing happening but a long conversation between characters, and on the other hand he doesn't go for just action-action-action like some stupid Action-hero movie. Even Burt, for all his bad-assness, still comes off as human and believable, and I think we can see that most of his bravado is just a cover up for some deep-seated fear and inadequcies (this doesn't, however, stop me from enjoying it whenever he busts a cap in some zombie's ass :cool:).

Just thinkin' like a writer for a bit, there.

[Solanine]

I'm curious as to why Michael is developing stronger bonds with his comrades in the Z-War as apposed to those soldiers he fought along side with in the service, his words not my interpretation. Is it because when he served they followed strict military guidelines whereas here he can spend 24-7 with these people, share in their drama, laughter, and sorrow?

Anyone with military service want to chime in and provide some insight as to how Michael's time spent with the Tower members could differ from that of his time spent with his soldiers in such a way that he'd form closer bonds with these people?

[edit/after thought]
I also had a funny moment when listening to 25-2 again when Michael is saying that no one could have survived. I picture him looking off to the West with teary eyes, meanwhile Saul is back in L.A. saying to Victor "They're not coming back" looking to the East with teary eyes. Then do a split screen of Michael and Saul, both teary eyed... lol, I love it.

My theory (and having no military xp its just that) is that its because they're all thats left. In the military a soldier dies and is replaced soon-ish (citation needed) , where as these few people are IT, They die, no FNG to replace them. Just another excuse for Datu to put on the water works.

[Eviebae]

I agree that Michael is an alpha. I think Burt used to be an alpha, but is now a beta. He pounded his chest and waved some branches around but in the end realized he wasn't up to it.

I can't remember if it was chimps or gorillas, but a documentary I saw showed an alpha being defeated by a younger one. They said that the old alpha often became the new alpha's beta. Sort of second in command and someone who had their back. After Burt handed the reins back to Michael, it was like they'd finally sorted their places in the hierarchy.

There are a lot of studies out there about what characterizes a socially dominant human. Being decisive, sure of yourself and your decisions (which is one reason that sociopaths sometimes make it into these positions). In small tribes though, it's supposed to be a lot more about consensus building. Moving unilaterally gets you booted.

[daredevil]

And that's why Burt and Angel fight whenever they talk.. Like in Chapter 21. Angel say's he in charge and Burt says, No I am... Rawr.

[DeeKay86]

All this "alpha" talk is slightly annoying. Could we not have a separate "who is the alpha" thread and keep this one for actual Chapter 25 part 2 discussions??

[daredevil]

All this "alpha" talk is slightly annoying. Could we not have a separate "who is the alpha" thread and keep this one for actual Chapter 25 part 2 discussions??
We are discussing the progressions of Michael as a Alpha and how he displays them in Chapter 25 part 2. It is on track. However I agree. Let's move this somewhere else.

[Adventureless_Hero]

I want to know what Riley was writing in her journal.
That and I hope they look in Hope's bag soon and go over Kalani's journals.

I forget, is hope completely blind or can she see a little (legally blind w/some vision)?

[DeeKay86]

We are discussing the progressions of Michael as a Alpha and how he displays them in Chapter 25 part 2. It is on track. However I agree. Let's move this somewhere else.

I know what you mean but most of the thread became all about alphas lol

[IamPaul]

Been wondering why they did not check out the farm house? Maybe part 3. I bet Riley is in there cooking an old fashioned country breakfast. Whether Riley committed suicide or not, I expect some major losses this season. Kalani and tommy were minor in my opinion. With only season 3 & 4 left, there has gotta be at least one big one this season. Right? Damn, I am more passionate about this then any entertainment I have ever partaken in.

[daredevil]

Been wondering why they did not check out the farm house? Maybe part 3. I bet Riley is in there cooking an old fashioned country breakfast. Whether Riley committed suicide or not, I expect some major losses this season. Kalani and tommy were minor in my opinion. With only season 3 & 4 left, there has gotta be at least one big one this season. Right? Damn, I am more passionate about this then any entertainment I have ever partaken in.
Woh dude. Suicide? Where'd you get that from? Sure Riley's sad and all but she isn't suicidal.... I think.

[nikvoodoo]

Been wondering why they did not check out the farm house? Maybe part 3. I bet Riley is in there cooking an old fashioned country breakfast. Whether Riley committed suicide or not, I expect some major losses this season. Kalani and tommy were minor in my opinion. With only season 3 & 4 left, there has gotta be at least one big one this season. Right? Damn, I am more passionate about this then any entertainment I have ever partaken in.

Reason being they were attempting to get the helicopter fixed before the night fall. That's why they didn't check the house. They weren't planning on being there long enough.

And as for the Episode thread meandering......yeah......they kinda do that.

[Pikepaw]

Riley isn't suicidal because she won't give up Angel and Lizzie for dead. Like Saul, Riley has to go and see their cold, still body before she will accept their fate. Riley is far more likely to try to go back to LA to find those she loves than give up and kill herself. To this point she has not shown a quitter personality, instead being second only to Saul in determination to get Lizzie back. To go see what at least happened to Angel will double her drive to go back to LA

[IamPaul]

If she is not suicidal, she has got to be SEVERELY depressed. We know she is a heavy drinker, and if she is the mole, with all that went down, she may just want to end it all. It is just hard to believe that someone has not considered suicide yet after all that has happened. If she decided to go back to LA, can you imagine the travel that is gonna have to take place, let alone what new creatures may be out there. Cannot wait for part 3!

[Hellbringer]

So I've listened to part two several times now between myself and with my family, and I still chuckle when I hear Kelly talk about the sound a chopper makes if no one is around. Just thought I'd mentioned that I get replay value out of this episode.

[tribe-xx]

.....

Is everyone 100% sure that they shot a coyote and not Riley?

[daredevil]

.....

Is everyone 100% sure that they shot a coyote and not Riley?
I can see how you could get the two of them mixed up, but yes. 100%

[IamPaul]

They did mention they missed the coyote.

[daredevil]

They did mention they missed the coyote.

I just remembered that when I was unable to post.

[IamPaul]

I don't think KC would do another friendly fire incident, but you never know. He could make it good.

[daredevil]

I don't think KC would do another friendly fire incident, but you never know. He could make it good.

Michael: YOU SHOT RILEY!!!
Datu: WHO CARES SAMANTHA IS DEAD!!
Tanya: I can patch her up!
Michael: Oh, Ok then :)
Datu: I'll go get my tools!

[IamPaul]

I can imagine that conversation right now.

[Satanic Mechanic]

I love the humor in that last episode, Datu and Kelly both had some funny, snarky lines. It seems like a natural progression, like they've been living in this terrible reality for so long eventually you just have to find things that make you smile and poke fun at the situation.

[Eviebae]

I love the humor in that last episode, Datu and Kelly both had some funny, snarky lines. It seems like a natural progression, like they've been living in this terrible reality for so long eventually you just have to find things that make you smile and poke fun at the situation.

That's so true! You'd probably develop a gallows humor at least--like Doctors and Nurses do.

That's one thing that I think marred Battlestar Galactica (the newest one). Too much sorrow-poor, poor, pitiful me. It got too melodramatic after awhile without enough leavening snark. Snark? That's just human nature.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

I love the humor in that last episode, Datu and Kelly both had some funny, snarky lines. It seems like a natural progression, like they've been living in this terrible reality for so long eventually you just have to find things that make you smile and poke fun at the situation.

Kelly has had some good lines every since the "Colony" episodes.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

.....

Is everyone 100% sure that they shot a coyote and not Riley?

Did you listen to the episode??

[Raven]

I agree with Crowbar Kelly got some of the best lines in the last season IMO. My personal favorite had to be when Victor had them raiding the ammo. "This is like Christmas I'm getting a little of everything!" Just because the way she said it and all the Burt references!
Datu on the other hand "yeah Datu yay me" caught me totally by surprise. Well at least he wasn't crying again!

[Pteranodon]

Did anyone else notice, Tanya (I think it was Tanya) used the "Z-word"? Is this the first time the Z-word has ever been spoken in We're Alive?

(sorry if someone already posted this- means I missed it)

[nikvoodoo]

Did anyone else notice, Tanya (I think it was Tanya) used the "Z-word"? Is this the first time the Z-word has ever been spoken in We're Alive?

(sorry if someone already posted this- means I missed it)

Nope. Saul called them zombies in 1-1. I think Tommy did in chapter 4 too. There's also zombie kitty, and I think Victor called them zombies earlier in this chapter (or last). There may be more but those are what I could think of off the top of my head.

[Bravo Team Leader]

This is the best chapter yet...

[daredevil]

Nope. Saul called them zombies in 1-1. I think Tommy did in chapter 4 too. There's also zombie kitty, and I think Victor called them zombies earlier in this chapter (or last). There may be more but those are what I could think of off the top of my head.

Yeah, I think almost everyone has.... even Michael has called them zombies.