Chapter 23 Pt 3 - The Devil's Workshop

[StepLaugh]

Let's get this started.

[Th3_T3ch]

GRRRRRR StepLaugh, I was hoping to be the lucky duck to get this started. Oh well, only 4 more hours!

[nikvoodoo]

I suddenly have a Black Eyed Peas song stuck in my head

[Th3_T3ch]

which one?

[nikvoodoo]

Let's get it started (or retarded...depending on which one you prefer)

[Th3_T3ch]

that song is so repetitive. I'm sorry for you.

[j0be]

Let's get it stahted in hah!

[wh33t]

Omg, it's so tense, so far!

[j0be]

So much. The scene with the man in the pinstripe suit was both awesome, scary, and not near as action packed as I thought it would be.

Edit: A quick google search for bell medical helicopter turned up this image
http://www.airplanemart.com/aircraft-manufacturers/photo/lg/Bell-205A-1-Evergreen-Helicopter-N4750R.jpg

Edit 2: Well, I feel sorry for @Britt. Absolutely jam packed with content in this episode.

[wh33t]

So much. The scene with the man in the pinstripe suit was both awesome, scary, and not near as action packed as I thought it would be.

Edit: A quick google search for bell medical helicopter turned up this image
http://www.airplanemart.com/aircraft-manufacturers/photo/lg/Bell-205A-1-Evergreen-Helicopter-N4750R.jpg

Edit 2: Well, I feel sorry for @Britt. Absolutely jam packed with content in this episode.

@britt?

Aye, I really enjoyed this episode! Been a long time since I enjoyed one that much. What the hell is up with the Suited guy? He was torturing humans or something in the hospital?

[j0be]

@britt?

Britt is the host of We're Not Dead, the fan podcast about We're Alive.

[7oddisdead]

Whoa...ill let that brew for a little bit...

[PamG]

@britt? <<Host of "We're Not Dead".

Damn - Just finished first listening. Who has Saul got? Hmmmm? Oh Frak me! The next 13 days X hours are going to be angst-filled.

[wh33t]

Britt is the host of We're Not Dead, the fan podcast about We're Alive.

Ahh thanks! I didn't know that. I don't use Twitter (I presume that's what the @symbol thing is for)

[wh33t]

@britt? <<Host of "We're Not Dead".

Damn - Just finished first listening. Who has Saul got? Hmmmm? Oh Frak me! The next 13 days X hours are going to be angst-filled.

He's got Pegs?

[PamG]

He's got Pegs?

I think Saul has too much honor to offer up anyone but himself. He may lie and make them think he'll turn over Pegs, but he won't do it. He would, however, willingly sacrafice himself for Lizzy.

[Jeebogs]

Excellent!

Bet Saul's found Durai in amongst the rubble.

[Osiris]

Sounds a lot like Riley is showing some love to Angel... perhaps she's not as gay as some people like to imagine. :cool: I can't believe they made it out though! I was biting my nails for two weeks praying Angel and Burt would be ok.

[beesting]

Holy crap! Mental Hospital?!?! They all got out?!?!?! Who does Saul have?!?!?! I'm gonna have to listen again after work. Love this show so much! Can't wait for the season finale!

[Osiris]

Holy crap! Mental Hospital?!?! They all got out?!?!?! Who does Saul have?!?!?! I'm gonna have to listen again after work. Love this show so much! Can't wait for the season finale!

I think he's going to work the trade of Pegs for Lizzy.

[Creem_Filling]

I think he's going to work the trade of Pegs for Lizzy.

I was thinking the same thing. But if he does, I'm going to have to jump into my iPod and punch Saul in the face.

[Osiris]

I was thinking the same thing. But if he does, I'm going to have to jump into my iPod and punch Saul in the face.

I'll hold him while you hit him, bro.

[7oddisdead]

Thing1: burt and ....angel are alive...
Thing2: we now know where the little ones came from
Thing3: he swiped an arrow out of the air! (If I heard that correctly)
still brewing.....damn....this was a good one..

[beesting]

I think he's going to work the trade of Pegs for Lizzy.

Michael would never allow that to happen. Can we just give them Kelly?

[Osiris]

Michael would never allow that to happen. Can we just give them Kelly?

Give them Riley.

[Nazario Jose Lopez]

Give them Riley.
Angel wouldn't allow that either. Pretty much stuck..

[wh33t]

Michael would never allow that to happen. Can we just give them Kelly?

Christ that would have been awesome about 10 chapters ago. She's kind of growing on me now but I'd probably offer her up first. I don't think Saul would actually offer up Pegs either but he might try to pull off some kind of scam in the process? or as someone else suggested, perhaps he found a different Maller on his travels.

Ps. Where did the little ones come from and how do we know this?

Yes he swiped an arrow out of the air! What a ninja!

Anyone else care to comment on the Pin Striped suit guy torturing people? The bloody clippers and bone drill?

[Osiris]

Angel wouldn't allow that either. Pretty much stuck..

Then poor Lizzy. I see no other alternatives.

[Creem_Filling]

This episode had kinda made me think that Saul is capable of being the rat. He may just be acting rashly out of love, but if he is willing to do this who is to say that he isn't the rat as well?

[j0be]

Ps. Where did the little ones come from and how do we know this?

I had to relisten to this again also. The reason we know the little ones were at least there, was the makeshift tattoo parlor.

[wh33t]

I had to relisten to this again also. The reason we know the little ones were at least there, was the makeshift tattoo parlor.

So that's what the motorized drill thing was? A tattoo device?

[Osiris]

Anyone else care to comment on the Pin Striped suit guy torturing people? The bloody clippers and bone drill?


I get the feeling it is less torture and more 'building'

[Nazario Jose Lopez]

I had to relisten to this again also. The reason we know the little ones were at least there, was the makeshift tattoo parlor.

What are the little ones..? like little kids? like the baby necromorphs.. O_O'

[wh33t]

I get the feeling it is less torture and more 'building'

Damn awesome. KC! You da man. Nice to have the KC intensity back on We're Alive.

[CantWaitForSeason3]

I've been trying to think about the exchange that Angel did with Latch. Was it Lizzy or someone else that contacted Angel to have Latch returned? If it was Lizzy, does Scratch know it was her? Can someone elaborate on whatever happened with that exchange? Is this what is saving Lizzy's life? and the towers?

As a side note i think the only person Durai would be interested in is ..... Michael!?!

[Osiris]

I like where you're going with Saul being the rat, Creemy... it is definitely starting to make more sense now, even though we already know he's been to jail.

[j0be]

So that's what the motorized drill thing was? A tattoo device?
I believe so, however, there were many fingernails they had to step on in their path.


What are the little ones..? like little kids? like the baby necromorphs.. O_O'
I imagined more like "the pack" from dead space, not the babies.

[Nazario Jose Lopez]

I've been trying to think about the exchange that Angel did with Latch. Was it Lizzy or someone else that contacted Angel to have Latch returned? If it was Lizzy, does Scratch know it was her? Can someone elaborate on whatever happened with that exchange? Is this what is saving Lizzy's life? and the towers?

As a side note i think the only person Durai would be interested in is ..... Michael!?!

I think Pegs told Angel to go get him back to the Mallers.

[7oddisdead]

Another thing of note...kalani flew the chopper...NO disputing that part of his story now...and nobody thought the nail files being there was a dead giveaway of the little being "customized" there at the very least?

[wh33t]

I highly doubt Saul is the rat. I still think it's someone we don't know. I just can't imagine any of our lead characters doing something like that, they seem too Heroic to be like that.

Yes, the finger nail shavings.... The little ones had crazy sharp little fingers didn't they? What chapter-episode was that again?

[Osiris]

Burt seems to have also regained his confidence... that was a quick turn.

[7oddisdead]

ALSO...if I'm remembering correctly..the way the tattoo gun was described...sounds a lot like a prison gun

[Osiris]

Sounds like somebody spent time on the inside... :P

[CantWaitForSeason3]

Another thing of note...kalani flew the chopper...NO disputing that part of his story now...and nobody thought the nail files being there was a dead giveaway of the little being "customized" there at the very least?

Kalani's legit.

I think only Lizzy and the Mallers have seen the Little Ones up close. No connection was made.

Is Pinstripes simply toying with Riley and Kalani? He didn't even try to investigate where the arrow came from. I hope he finds a bow and shoots Riley with her own arrow. Not because i hate Riley i just think it would be crazy.

[Osiris]

Kalani's legit.

I think only Lizzy and the Mallers have seen the Little Ones up close. No connection was made.

Is Pinstripes simply toying with Riley and Kalani? He didn't even try to investigate where the arrow came from. I hope he finds a bow and shoots Riley with her own arrow. Not because i hate Riley i just think it would be crazy.

ROFL! YES! That would be a perfect end to her.

[j0be]

I think only Lizzy and the Mallers have seen the Little Ones up close. No connection was made.

Angel and Kalani saw them, but only from a distance. Saul hasn't seen them, but heard a detailed description.

[wh33t]

ROFL! YES! That would be a perfect end to her.

That's some morbid shit right there lol.

I'm stoked all of our main characters are still there. To be honest, I'm really hoping KC finally tells us wtf happened to Michaels arm at the water plant.

[beesting]

I think Pegs told Angel to go get him back to the Mallers.


When Pegs, Michael and Kelly were at the beach house, Pegs went off by herself to talk to Angel and ask him to take the body back, which he then did with Kalani in tow before they went to get MRE's.

[Osiris]

That's some morbid shit right there lol.

I'm stoked all of our main characters are still there. To be honest, I'm really hoping KC finally tells us wtf happened to Michaels arm at the water plant.

I kind of hope that never happens in one way. It's nice to have a mystery within a mystery. It's probably something super simple like 'I fell' and totally uninteresting.

[j0be]

I'm stoked all of our main characters are still there.

Two main characters died in last season's finale. Bill and Tommy. Will it happen again?

[wh33t]

Did I hear correctly that the final episode of the Season isn't coming out until July 31st?

[Osiris]

Two main characters died in last season's finale. Bill and Tommy. Will it happen again?

Tommy and Bill were both supporting characters. I wouldn't consider either of them being a main character because neither had a developed backstory or constant presence in the story.

[wh33t]

Two main characters died in last season's finale. Bill and Tommy. Will it happen again?

Ah, correct you are. I was more referring to our originals Datu, Michael, Angel, Saul, Pegs, Lizzy and Burt.

[Osiris]

Did I hear correctly that the final episode of the Season isn't coming out until July 31st?

I thought it said Saturday the 30th... will listen again.

-ADDENDUM-

Affirmative on the Saturday July, 30.

[wh33t]

I thought it said Saturday the 30th... will listen again.

-ADDENDUM-

Affirmative on the Saturday July, 30.


Saturday... that's a first isn't it?

[Osiris]

Saturday... that's a first isn't it?

Um... no... the first is the following Monday. There are 31 days in July... the 30th day falling on a Saturday. :cool:

[StepLaugh]

So can we safely say the TOWTM is the one giving the tattoos?

[beesting]

Um... no... the first is the following Monday. There are 31 days in July... the 30th day falling on a Saturday. :cool:

I read this as the first time it's come out on a Saturday, as far as I'm aware it is. I believe this was due to wanting to make it a live event!

[j0be]

So can we safely say the TOWTM is the one giving the tattoos?

Actually, no. He was there where it was being done. Circumstantial. But likely.

[Osiris]

So can we safely say the TOWTM is the one giving the tattoos?

My gut is screaming 'No' to that. I think he's just a pawn in a larger game of chess being played by someone far more sinister.


Then again, I'm probably wrong.

[PamG]

Um... no... the first is the following Monday. There are 31 days in July... the 30th day falling on a Saturday. :cool:

"...that's **a** first..." is the question. I don't believe there's been a Saturday podcast. Note, this will be the entire chapter (or, if you will, episodes 1, 2, and 3) in one broadcast, and the season-ender to boot!

[Osiris]

I read this as the first time it's come out on a Saturday, as far as I'm aware it is. I believe this was due to wanting to make it a live event!

First of the month* that should have read for clarity. I believe this is the first time an episode has come out on a Saturday and yes I believe you are correct that is entirely to make it a live event that people could actually be part of.

[Osiris]

"...that's **a** first..." is the question. I don't believe there's been a Saturday podcast. Note, this will be the entire chapter (or, if you will, episodes 1, 2, and 3) in one broadcast, and the season-ender to boot!


ROFL... oh man... reading comprehension > me this morning that's for sure. Yeah, I'm fully clued into what is going on around me now. Sorry about that.

*slinks off, head hanging low in shame*

[Zombiefrog]

really sorry to ask but why is the part 3 not showing up on itunes yet? i am on the uk site

[ilanagl]

That was my new favorite episode. I think pegs will be offered in exchange(not with michaels permission)but Saul will have something great planned

[StepLaugh]

Osiris and J0be.

To much of a coincidence for him NOT to be the one to tattoo them, I mean he is the one with the MARKINGS. Fits perfectly.

Also how long has it been since the outbreak, what's a rough month estimate.

[StepLaugh]

really sorry to ask but why is the part 3 not showing up on itunes yet? i am on the uk site

Slow I guess, Might be faster to listen to it on the website.

[Osiris]

That was my new favorite episode. I think pegs will be offered in exchange(not with michaels permission)but Saul will have something great planned

Yeah... get back his girlfriend and say 'Sorry, Michael... I just couldn't let them keep her... sorry about Pegs though... but LOOK! Lizzy's back! She's back Michael... everything is ok now...'

[PaulChambers94]

this was by far the best ending to a chapter ever! i did not expect it to end the way it did.

[Osiris]

Osiris and J0be.

To much of a coincidence for him NOT to be the one to tattoo them, I mean he is the one with the MARKINGS. Fits perfectly.

Also how long has it been since the outbreak, what's a rough month estimate.

I suppose this makes sense... if you go with the idea of him inking himself... I really don't know. As for a rough timeline estimate... I've honestly lost track completely and couldn't even wager a guess.

[PamG]

ROFL... oh man... reading comprehension > me this morning that's for sure. Yeah, I'm fully clued into what is going on around me now. Sorry about that.

*slinks off, head hanging low in shame*


No shame here...you were being very helpful. Perhaps misdirected, but helful. :)

[UndeadSweeper]

Hmm... Now that I think of it I believe the tatto parlor is more to number the test subject, to see which improvement is working out better.

[Osiris]

No shame here...you were being very helpful. Perhaps misdirected, but helful. :)

<3 awww thanks for being understanding.

[Osiris]

Hmm... Now that I think of it I believe the tatto parlor is more to number the test subject, to see which improvement is working out better.


ibbarcodes

[7oddisdead]

So a question....would Saul have instinctually known that the mallers were policing all CB channels? By the sound just before Saul made the call to scratch, it sounded Like he turned the dial fairly random. I'm not ready to label Saul the rat...but damn dude...*shakes head*

[UndeadSweeper]

ibbarcodes? Barcode?

[nikvoodoo]

Step: rough time estimate since the outbreak is three months. Its mid to late August right now in WA land.

And I still say "building" anything isn't plausible. What I think is more plausible is modifying. But building can't happen, and I call shennanagans if that comes to light.

here's a thought about the fingernails: ever see those movies where someone is being dragged off and break their nails off on the floor or walls trying to stop it? Hmm

[Bulldog711]

WHAT AN EPISODE!!!!! I like how KC made the rescue of Burt/Angel very realistic (outside of the countdown interruption :) ).......It was very interesting how the event with the tattoo'd one was brief and relativley uneventful, which makes him creepier!!!!!!

Saul continues to impress.....obviously the cliff hanger leads us to believe Saul will work out a deal to bring back the RAT (i guess), go back to the tower, capture the rat, then try to do a bait and switch!

[Osiris]

So a question....would Saul have instinctually known that the mallers were policing all CB channels? By the sound just before Saul made the call to scratch, it sounded Like he turned the dial fairly random. I'm not ready to label Saul the rat...but damn dude...*shakes head*

Oh man... really, really hard to say if that was a random channel switch that occured there. It sounded to me more like he was used to twisting that dial to a certain spot... but that's just me.

[Ra1th]

first up, told you angel wouldnt die. Second of all, what is Saul doing offering up Pegs like that? maybe he's going darkside, which i'd totally be down for, driven crazy by love, going down the wrong path, i dunno maybe.

[PamG]

Long-time lurker, first time predictor - be gentle with me please! <br />
<br />
I think Kelly *was* the rat who has since changed her mind. <br />
I believe Kelly killed Pippen; not to protect herself, but to...

[7oddisdead]

Oh man... really, really hard to say if that was a random channel switch that occured there. It sounded to me more like he was used to twisting that dial to a certain spot... but that's just me.

yea didn't want to say it....;). Also, I'm having a brain lapse at the moment....but has durais name ever been mentioned around saul? I can't honestly think of a time it would have been....hhmmmmm

[StepLaugh]

first up, told you angel wouldnt die. Second of all, what is Saul doing offering up Pegs like that? maybe he's going darkside, which i'd totally be down for, driven crazy by love, going down the wrong path, i dunno maybe.

Who's to say he isnt bluffing?

[Osiris]

Agreed on most counts. The Kelly is the Rat scenario has been playing in my mind from the start of the whole Rat fiasco, but I really believe that Saul would roll over on anyone and everyone to get...

[PaulChambers94]

did anyone go back and listen to chapter 2 part 1 and chapter 8 part 2? i thought those were the radio frequencies kalani said. "8-2 and 2-1"

[wh33t]

Um... no... the first is the following Monday. There are 31 days in July... the 30th day falling on a Saturday. :cool:

Lol I meant is it the "first time" that KC will release an episode on a Saturday instead of a Monday.

[HardKor]

Alright, where to begin here.
The rescue was awesome and done in a way none of of predicted. We spent so much time discussing bedsheets and arrows and helicopter rescues (although kudos to those who predicted the C4 would make a return!) we forgot the subtle foreshadowing of the elevators. He's a sneaky one that Kc.
The "workshop" in the mental hospital: I thought we might find a mental ward in the hospital and I'm going with the assumption that that is where Ink was being held before the outbreak. I'm also being reminded of Fallout 3 here. The Super Mutants capturing people and exposing them to FEV to make more. I think that's basically what's going on with the little ones. People are taken, exposed to some sort of chemical, shaved, have their fingernail filed down, and then tattooed by Ink.
And on a final note regarding Saul: No no no no no no. Saul you cannot do this NO! If Saul sincerely tries to trade Pegs for Lizzie he will be dead to me. I'm hoping this is some kind of ploy. But even if it is, its a bad one! And as for those claiming Saul might be the rat. While possible, I still think its unlikely. I just cannot believe that the rat and Pippin's shooter are different people. And Saul wasn't at the Tower when Pippin was shot.

[Osiris]

yea didn't want to say it....;). Also, I'm having a brain lapse at the moment....but has durais name ever been mentioned around saul? I can't honestly think of a time it would have been....hhmmmmm

I had thought Scratch had made mention of it while Saul was spying on her and Latch... I could be wrong though. Perhaps I should go back and relisten.

[nikvoodoo]

yea didn't want to say it....;). Also, I'm having a brain lapse at the moment....but has durais name ever been mentioned around saul? I can't honestly think of a time it would have been....hhmmmmm

There was no direct podcast mention of Durai, however after the proposal/sizing up by Latch and Scratch he would have heard about durai from Angel and Michael

@osiris when saul is spying, they still referred to Durai as he and him. His first by name mention is in the lobby of the tower (99% positive)

[wh33t]

Step: rough time estimate since the outbreak is three months. Its mid to late August right now in WA land.

And I still say "building" anything isn't plausible. What I think is more plausible is modifying. But building can't happen, and I call shennanagans if that comes to light.

here's a thought about the fingernails: ever see those movies where someone is being dragged off and break their nails off on the floor or walls trying to stop it? Hmm

That's what I originally figured. When someone is dragged somewhere in fear they will try and dig their nails into whatever they can to grip. Lots of horror movies show this off.

[7oddisdead]

There was no direct podcast mention of Durai, however after the proposal/sizing up by Latch and Scratch he would have heard about durai from Angel and Michael

but can we use that as canon?...im just asking here..and I DONT want this to be true at all..simply exploring ideas

[nikvoodoo]

but can we use that as canon?...im just asking here..and I DONT want this to be true at all..simply exploring ideas

it wouldn't be the first time characters gained knowledge without us directly hearing about it...at least I think. Can't think of a good example right now

[Osiris]

but can we use that as canon?...im just asking here..and I DONT want this to be true at all..simply exploring ideas

I'd have to relisten to earlier episodes, but I see no reason not to.

[7oddisdead]

it wouldn't be the first time characters gained knowledge without us directly hearing about it...at least I think. Can't think of a god example right now

nor can I...which is why I ask

[PaulChambers94]

Kalani (I'm not sure if I spelled that correctly) mentioned 2 radio frequencies. 2-1 and 8-2. I thought those were episode numbers. In chapter 2 part 1, Lizzie come to the tower and during the commotion, Saul seems to be missing until all of the action is over. Michael asks where he was and then interrupts him and we don't figure out where Saul was. In 8-2 I didn't near anything interesting, but Angel did want to turn on the radio on the way to the water pumping station, and michael said no.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

Sounds like Inky might be quite the tattoo artist.

Anywho, nice pointing out nikvoodoo on that explanation as to why there were finger nails littered on the floor, it creeped me out something awful. Perhaps though that was part of their evolution (lose the fingernails, grow in claws)?

Even though it wasn't quite the heroic rescue I was originally picturing (helicopter out the window, a la Morpheus in the Matrix), I'm glad all of them made it out ok. Sounds like Burt still has some importance, but then again he did said "just maybe."

I got nothing on Inky standing there like a statue. I think he can probably deflect/catch Riley's arrow, but I doubt (hopefully I'm right) that he can dodge any bullets.

As for the Pegs for Lizzy theory, I doubt Michael will take that standing down and Saul would have to go back to the Tower for her since Michael would probably be reluctant knowing what Saul is out there for. I forget, does he know that Pegs shot Latch/John in his defense? I'm still with the school that Kelly was the rat but eventually change her loyalty to the tower, but maybe there is something about Saul's past that will make into the story?

Also I third that motion to finally learn what happened to Michael that day in the water plant.

Guess we'll all have to wait and see. Nice episode KC and Crew.


first up, told you angel wouldnt die. Second of all, what is Saul doing offering up Pegs like that? maybe he's going darkside, which i'd totally be down for, driven crazy by love, going down the wrong path, i dunno maybe.

Had to throw that in didn't you? :D

[clem131]

I hope Saul doesn't pull a Michael-Walt here...

[HardKor]

As for the Pegs for Lizzy theory, I doubt Michael will take that standing down and Saul would have to go back to the Tower for her since Michael would probably be reluctant knowing what Saul is out there for. I forget, does he know that Pegs shot Latch/John in his defense? I'm still with the school that Kelly was the rat but eventually change her loyalty to the tower, but maybe there is something about Saul's past that will make into the story?

Pegs isn't at the Tower. As far as we know she's still at LAX with Datu and Victor

[Osiris]

Chapter 6-2 seems to answer the question of where Saul may have heard of Durai. This is entirely under the assumption that Saul was within earshot of the conversation between Latch and Scratch during the 'shopping trip'.

[nikvoodoo]

Pegs isn't at the Tower. As far as we know she's still at LAX with Datu and Victor

Exactly! And saul is spitting distance from LAX right now....and I'm not gonna lie, it didn't sound like he had any intention on returning to the tower.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

Pegs isn't at the Tower. As far as we know she's still at LAX with Datu and Victor

Oooppss. Thanks for clearing that up HardKor. Its been awhile since that episode released XD.

[HardKor]

I have to say, I'm starting to see Ra1th's point about Saul. The thing is, up until now, whenever Saul did something stupid and rash, he really only put himself at risk. He never really risked the safety of others when he acted without thinking. If he really is about to do what we think he's about to do, he is crossing that line and is now about to put Pegs at risk. He's either going to kidnap Pegs and trade her for Lizzie, which would be a Moral Event Horizon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon)for his character. Or he's going to kidnap Pegs and try to use her as bait to get Lizzie back (without actually handing Pegs over), which is just a bad plan that puts Pegs, Lizzie, and himself at serious risk. Maybe he's planing something else, he was pretty vague about what he was going to do, but I can't think of another plausible outcome right now.

[Dino_Does_Zombies]

A life for a life.

I don't think Saul would have to do any convincing. It is quite possible that Pegs would willingly go with Saul to help get Lizzie back, as means to make amends for taking Latch's life, a la "Crime and Punishment".

[Zombiehead]

Damn, so they didn't use Riley's alcohol to get away. Or maybe the Smart One let Kalani and Riley go because he could smell it on her? Who knows.

Yeah... get back his girlfriend and say 'Sorry, Michael... I just couldn't let them keep her... sorry about Pegs though... but LOOK! Lizzy's back! She's back Michael... everything is ok now...'
You read my mind, I believe it's an act and Saul has a plan. I'm not sure what it entails but by setting up a "bargain" he can at least know where Lizzy is instead of just searching the area blindly in a random direction. Let the Mallers come to him and go from there. It's what I would do.

[AdrianHD]

I love this episode! I knew no one was going to die just by the journal reading though. As for Saul, I don't know, kinda threw me off balance with his tone. Won't put him as the rat or willing to throw away Pegs just because of the LAX situation where Victor told Saul that she's the reason he's alive right now.

And... Nik's going to have a rough time predicting the finale since there are a lot of things that have to happen.

[Grognaurd]

Saul is in Radio contact with Scratch and the Tower. Interesting. I wonder if the Mallers have already taken over the colony or someplace else, like the other tower.

Kelly did not warn Saul that the kid-gobblers were having a pow-wow around the tower. I wonder how they are going to clean it up.

The team is still really spread out.
Saul is around town
Several of the main characters in the Tower
A bunch of Redshirts in the other building.
Four in the copter
three back at the other copter.
Lizzy most likely with Scratch

[nikvoodoo]

So let's talk this over.... Kelly, who is trapped in the second tower at the moment (in theory depending on the timing) is the one who answered Saul's call? Hmm...best of my knowledge, Kelly hasn't been on guard duty since she left Pippin.

[Grognaurd]

I do not think it has been very long. She came back from the colony AM day 1. People go out and look for Lizzy. Pippin shows up that evening or late afternoon. She guards Pippin on the graveyard shift. Angel takes over. Pippin gets dead. Early afternoon or so she works with Michael and Steven to save Tanya. There has been so much going on in the last few chapters an all in a very small amount of time.

[Creem_Filling]

So let's talk this over.... Kelly, who is trapped in the second tower at the moment (in theory depending on the timing) is the one who answered Saul's call? Hmm...best of my knowledge, Kelly hasn't been on guard duty since she left Pippin.

Yes, but we haven't actually been inside the tower for a while. We have been seeing the story from the point of view of everyone who is on the outside. A lot could have happened in the time we were away. I mean, I know there was the whole Randy (Randi?) thing. Maybe we'll get filled on in on the story later. Because, like you've said, we can't really trust the flow of time. We have jumped on around on time line in this story in the past, maybe we'll do it again soon here.

[nikvoodoo]

Yes, but we know Kalani and Datu showed up after Pippin was killed. Meaning there's only one radio left because the other one got a hot lead injection. So....since that time we know she's been locked into that other tower during the attempted kidnapping of Tanya. Unless something has happened between the last time we left Steven and Michael in the guard room and now. Before Steven was on, Riley was.

So either Michael has taken care of the zombie problem and Kelly us on guard duty, or there's something else amiss like an additional radio we didn't know about.


And... Nik's going to have a rough time predicting the finale since there are a lot of things that have to happen.

Perhaps, perhaps not. We shall see.

[HardKor]

I just re listened to 23-1. Kelly came back into the Tower with Michael and Steven. She says that her and Steven are going to carry Tanya back in and then Michael's narration states that they made it back into the Tower before more biters showed up (~12:38-12:55 mark for those interested)

[GD_Elite]

@nikvoodoo kelly went back to the normal tower with Michael, Steven and Tanya. (Okay HardKor got there first)

First of all I'm worried about my moral compass. I was upset when Angel and Burt got saved and I was happy when Saul started something evil to balance the episode out a little. However I'm going to use the excuse that I'm not some sort of sociopath because I got my predictions wrong.

I agree Arthur LaMarche. It has been unclear since they got back from the colony if any days have passed at all. It would be nice to know how much time has passed since they got back from the colony.

It would appear that Scratch would want Pegs. But how is Saul going to get her to come with her? I can't see how this could happen realistically. Hmm..

My biggest concern with this episode, is what the army of zombies are doing. So we think they all came to have a new home. Have they come in and made themselves at home or are they all stood outside still. If the blood pools in the psycho ward are fresh, does that mean the alive ones being draggged in have gone straight up, processed and moved along in the time the team were stuck in the room?

[Grognaurd]

I think it is pretty clear that very little time has elapsed since they came back from the colony. Twenty four for sure. Probably 36, but not 48.

[seanofthedead]

my money is that the rat is kelly. here is why. when kelly was first introduced in the series her occupation was lawyer, a rather generic term. lets just assume she's a criminal defense lawyer and the she represented some of the mallers. now judging from the past dialog that kelly has had and how she is represented in the series it is more plausible that she is the rat.

[GD_Elite]

You are right about them sleeping the night, I missed that.
Also good point about Kelly not telling Saul about the zombies outside the tower. I wouldn't have thought that they would have killed all the zombies outside the tower because I thought it was suggested they were going to be extra guards. I guess they rejected that idea. or Kelly is stupid.

Other points to note: At the mall they had all the radios lined up so that they could scan all the CB channels. The fact that Scratch picked up the radio after Sauls first try makes it seem like they have found Durai, and are able to scan all chanels again (It seems unlikely that they would have 40 radios in Scratchs car). Yet if this is the case, they can't have gone too far away because they are still in range, and the colony is probably out of range usually.

Also, it sounds like the mental ward was kept a secret before this all happened. Would Angel have known about this place since episode 1 when it was brought up? I believe on the google map, there was a different mental facility in range of LA too. Could this have been where Ink went after his trial? Is that why he still spends time here. But the one with the markings gets around. The Arena, the hospital, the other tower, the tower twice, two convoy ambushes. And it has superhuman reflexes? Testing on mental patients is quite common in this sort of genre. But then what is ground zero? I'm so confused :(

[nikvoodoo]

Apologies, hardkor and the slightly tardy to the party GD ;)

I just remember her taking the shots. I didn't recall kelly going back to the Tower.

[Jeebogs]

So a question....would Saul have instinctually known that the mallers were policing all CB channels? By the sound just before Saul made the call to scratch, it sounded Like he turned the dial fairly random. I'm not ready to label Saul the rat...but damn dude...*shakes head*


I'm assuming he's turned to channel 18, that's the one they indicated for the tower to turn to at the start of the war, and that's the channel Angel uses when he drops off Latch's body.

Why is everyone adamant that Saul is going to offer up Pegs? Did I miss something?

[GD_Elite]

Scratch hates pegs becuase pegs shot Latch. That is all you missed.

[Jeebogs]

Scratch hates pegs becuase pegs shot Latch. That is all you missed.

I get that, but why is it taken as read that Saul will dangle Pegs in front of Scratch?

[GD_Elite]

Because thats who Scratch wants more than anyone else.

[HardKor]

I get that, but why is it taken as read that Saul will dangle Pegs in front of Scratch?
What else could Saul dangle in front of Scratch to get Lizzie back?

[Creem_Filling]

I get that, but why is it taken as read that Saul will dangle Pegs in front of Scratch?

Because who else would the mallers want? Unless Saul knows who the rat or shooter is, I can't think of who else he might offer.

[nikvoodoo]

Because who else would the mallers want? Unless Saul knows who the rat or shooter is, I can't think of who else he might offer.

And even then, why would the Mallers want the rat back? They do them no good if not subverting the tower

[Jeebogs]

What else could Saul dangle in front of Scratch to get Lizzie back?

Burger and fries?:D

Seriously though, is Scratch now the unofficial leader of the mallers? If not, why would Durai want to swap Lizzy for Pegs just for the gratification of Scratch? Haven't they got better things to do?

[nikvoodoo]

Burger and fries?:D

Seriously though, is Scratch now the unofficial leader of the mallers? If not, why would Durai want to swap Lizzy for Pegs just for the gratification of Scratch? Haven't they got better things to do?

Scratch tried to burn the tower down despite Durai's wishes. She's the Mallers version of Saul, a loose cannon except she's a little more psychotic than Saul.

[HardKor]

Burger and fries?:D

Seriously though, is Scratch now the unofficial leader of the mallers? If not, why would Durai want to swap Lizzy for Pegs just for the gratification of Scratch? Haven't they got better things to do?
Well the Mallers are split into two parties right now with Scratch leading the assault on the Arena while Durai does whatever it is he's doing "down south." Scratch's interest in Lizzie seems to be her own side project.

[GD_Elite]

Well the Mallers are split into two parties right now with Scratch leading the assault on the Arena while Durai does whatever it is he's doing "down south." Scratch's interest in Lizzie seems to be her own side project.

We don't know where Scratch is at the moment. Do you really think she picked up the radio when moving and Saul happened to pick the right channel. I'm not so sure.

[cupcakezombie]

Amazing episode. You gus have already discussed a lot of what I have been thinking.
One extra note:
If you listen closely it sounds like the Man in the Pin Strip/Ink (still no firm confirmation on them all being the same 'person', but this seems a bit closer if we combine the chapter art and Kalani saying he is the same one that is at the arena) suit laughs as Riley is lining up her shot at about 5:16. It seems as if he knows that an arrow is not much of a challenge to him. Creepy!

[SoMoney]

HOW TO BUILD A BETTER ZOMBIE 1,2,3,4,5:
I do like this aspect of the story. Its very Stephen King to have a single evil presence that presents itself throughout the story that EVERYONE knows about in some way or another. The unstoppable Arrow catching INK character is building his army of Special Infected(L4D?) to do battle at a later date.

GET TO DA GENERATOR!:
Who would have thought the hospital had an unused tertiary backup generator tank, fueled and ready to be siphoned over to the main generator!? Dare I say Nobody? ;) The Elevators were mentioned earlier in the chapter but I thought it was to let the listeners know they couldn't be opened or ascended (silly us!). Those that thought Burts WalkieTalkie project would come into play as an Explosive Decoy this episode (I sure did not) BRAVO!

TO SACRIFICE OR BLUFF?:
Saul is in love and will do anything to see Lizzy again I get that. Offering up Pegs to see Lizzy is a line he will not cross. It has to be a bluff but we know the last poker game Saul played didn't turn out in his favor.

[symon_r]

First things first, prop's to Kc and the whole crew for a great episode. I usually listen on the way to work but I had to listen to this as soon as I got in today. I was fully ready to come here and give massive prop's to all the board members who were predicting Burt's final heroic fling as they were getting onto the helicopter. I'm also not sure if its because I usually listen on headphones but this episode felt like the musical score was used to an even greater effect than usual.

On the question of who, if anyone, Saul would give up for Lizzie. He could probably fairly easily snatch Peg's from the airfield (and a face off between him and Victor potentially crippling the helicopter beyond repair in the process would be pretty epic) but he has to know that would be the end of his time with anyone associated with the tower and I feel that would include Lizzie.

When he switches to the new channel he does check if "nest" or "vulture" are listening before trying to contact Durai (although for the first radio contact he kicks off with "hey") which struck me as significant but I don't know why. On a tangent from that Kelly goes to the trouble of using Saul's codename but then gives out his location in plain speech?

Ok, I had a thought about something that happened during the episode and on a hunch googled it. Would it be bad form to share that information? It's possible I stumbled on a little of Kc's inspiration..

[nikvoodoo]

TO SACRIFICE OR BLUFF?:
Saul is in love and will do anything to see Lizzy again I get that. Offering up Pegs to see Lizzy is a line he will not cross. It has to be a bluff but we know the last poker game Saul played didn't turn out in his favor.

The bluff has occurred to me as well, however I'm not positive that's the case. There's no telling what someone is capable of when it comes to a loved one. Morals and ethics do tend to fall to the wayside if that's what it takes.

If this is a bluff one of two things will happen: We won't know it's a bluff until season 3, or someone will call the bluff and someone will die because of Saul.

[Miss]

Hi, Im new to here, so be gentel, but Im really, really confused. Where on earth did the idea that the Mallers actually want Pegs come from?? I honestly dont think Saul would offer up anyone from the tower, what if he is actually offering up the TOWER itself as a trade since they have a means of getting out of LA

[GD_Elite]

After a second listen through, I notice the sign: Cain Mental Hospital. I bring relief to troubled minds.
Why would it say I. Surely a sign like this would say 'we' normally. Could this area be some sort of private hospital, run by one guy. Cain perhaps? hmmm...

Very unlikely to be story related, but why a helicopter have chocks? No idea.

Also, I don't think anyone has asked what film Burts radio distraction was from.

[Th3_T3ch]

I believe Saul is going to try and trade Lewis for Lizzy because as far as Saul knows, Lewis is the rat. He will of course be told that Lewis isn't the rat. He could do what everybody is thinking and get Pegs for Lizzy.

Did anybody else think for a split second that the chopper was malfunctioning before the narration came on? And Cain Mental Hospital, could this be the mental facility INK was taken to that the TiVo was talking about (I'm listening to earlier episodes to find out)?

Also if one maller knew about explosives, then another maller might know how to fly a helicopter. Prisoners were working people once too. I still hold on to my shrinkingly possible theory about Kalani.

Finally, Great episode Kc! Can't believe none of us predicted the use of the elevator. Also will that giant generator make an appearance again? It's huge, and it's powerful.

[nikvoodoo]

Hi, Im new to here, so be gentel, but Im really, really confused. Where on earth did the idea that the Mallers actually want Pegs come from?? I honestly dont think Saul would offer up anyone from the tower, what if he is actually offering up the TOWER itself as a trade since they have a means of getting out of LA

The idea comes from Scratch wanting revenge for killing Latch. Saul knows Scratch has Lizzy, meaning if he offers a trade he can get his girlfriend back.

And he really doesn't even need to "trade" Pegs for Lizzy per se. He just needs to let Scratch know where Pegs is right now (with no defense other than Datu and Victor). If Saul has been listening in on the walkies, he would have a pretty good idea that Burt/Kalani are no longer at LAX, and Victor might be a pimp, but he isn't going to be able to take out an entire squad of Mallers before they finally get him.

[Evil Prodigy]

Burt seems to have also regained his confidence... that was a quick turn.

Once a Marine always a Marine! "Semper Fi"

[uuhhhuuu]

Does anyone think that saul will really turn over peggs to get lizzy back?!?!

[nikvoodoo]

After a second listen through, I notice the sign: Cain Mental Hospital. I bring relief to troubled minds.
Why would it say I. Surely a sign like this would say 'we' normally. Could this area be some sort of private hospital, run by one guy. Cain perhaps? hmmm...

Very unlikely to be story related, but why a helicopter have chocks? No idea.

Also, I don't think anyone has asked what film Burts radio distraction was from.

It may be that whomever Cain was had that phrase installed when he paid enough to have the hospital named after himself. Or was a famous phrase of his and he worked there and was named after him once he died....but it doesn't say memorial, so I'll go with the prior.

Chocks are used for most aircraft, even helicopters. Especially if there's the potential for it to roll off the roof of a very tall building.

[HardKor]

On the question of who, if anyone, Saul would give up for Lizzie. He could probably fairly easily snatch Peg's from the airfield (and a face off between him and Victor potentially crippling the helicopter beyond repair in the process would be pretty epic) but he has to know that would be the end of his time with anyone associated with the tower and I feel that would include Lizzie.
Its possible Saul doesn't intend to rejoin the Tower. He did seem pretty willing to stay behind before and if his need to get Lizzie has clouded his judgment enough, he may be willing to say "Screw the Tower, I need my Blondie!" And I'm sure he isn't considering the idea that Lizzie will be pissed at him for turning over Pegs, he's too blinded by his emotions (Assuming he is planing on turning Pegs over and this isn't some sort of badly thought out bluff).


Hi, Im new to here, so be gentel, but Im really, really confused. Where on earth did the idea that the Mallers actually want Pegs come from?? I honestly dont think Saul would offer up anyone from the tower, what if he is actually offering up the TOWER itself as a trade since they have a means of getting out of LA

First of all welcome to the forums! Scratch wants Pegs because Pegs killed Latch and Scratch want her revenge.

[GD_Elite]

And he really doesn't even need to "trade" Pegs for Lizzy per se. He just needs to let Scratch know where Pegs is right now (with no defense other than Datu and Victor). If Saul has been listening in on the walkies, he would have a pretty good idea that Burt/Kalani are no longer at LAX, and Victor might be a pimp, but he isn't going to be able to take out an entire squad of Mallers before they finally get him.

I like this idea nik. Its seemed a bit unsettling to me that they just left Pegs, Datu and Victor alone for pretty much all the chapter. It could be really interesting to see what happens there and puts several other characters at risk.

The only flaw I see is how dedicated to Scratch the mallers really are. The Scratch/Pegs thing is personal. I can see some of the mallers being pissed that they are going off plan and potentially risking there lives to go swap one prisoner for another.

EDIT: Why would a helicopter roll of the roof. I wouldn't have thought it had wheels?

[nikvoodoo]

The only flaw I see is how dedicated to Scratch the mallers really are. The Scratch/Pegs thing is personal. I can see some of the mallers being pissed that they are going off plan and potentially risking there lives to go swap one prisoner for another.

I agree. In fact, I'd expect resistance to the idea from just about every Maller she's with.

I also expect Scratch to gut the Maller that tries to stop her, especially if Pegs is within striking distance.

[HardKor]

EDIT: Why would a helicopter roll of the roof. I wouldn't have thought it had wheels?

It's on top of a roof, at least 16 stories off the ground where the wind can blow it around. It need to be held in place and the blades tied down so a strong wind doesn't damage it.

[Osiris]

It's on top of a roof, at least 16 stories off the ground where the wind can blow it around. It need to be held in place and the blades tied down so a strong wind doesn't damage it.

All of this is completely true. I came to post it, but was beaten to it (damn you HardKor).

[Don Man]

man im so glad they all got out. But that ending who could it be? cant wait for the season end

[symon_r]

I agree. In fact, I'd expect resistance to the idea from just about every Maller she's with.

I also expect Scratch to gut the Maller that tries to stop her, especially if Pegs is within striking distance.

There was a lot of love for Brick(s) here - perhaps him interfering in a trade resulting in no-one being turned over to the Mallers would be a fine way to either give him a heroic end or bring him into the tower?

[cupcakezombie]

When he switches to the new channel he does check if "nest" or "vulture" are listening before trying to contact Durai (although for the first radio contact he kicks off with "hey") which struck me as significant but I don't know why. On a tangent from that Kelly goes to the trouble of using Saul's codename but then gives out his location in plain speech?

I get the feeling that Saul only really contacted the Tower to double check what channel they were using, not to tell them he was actually coming back. That is why he changed quickly then double checked. He did pass on information, but it was secondary to his confirmation of channel.
I have a feeling that Saul is going to go for Pegs 'with' the Mallers (whether bluffing or not) and then the second chopper from Cain will land back at the airport and all kinds of crazy will go down.
Remember that Saul doesn't necessarily know that Burt etc have left the airport so he may expect them to still be there to back him up

[Osiris]

I get the feeling that Saul only really contacted the Tower to double check what channel they were using, not to tell them he was actually coming back. That is why he changed quickly then double checked. He did pass on information, but it was secondary to his confirmation of channel.
I have a feeling that Saul is going to go for Pegs 'with' the Mallers (whether bluffing or not) and then the second chopper from Cain will land back at the airport and all kinds of crazy will go down.
Remember that Saul doesn't necessarily know that Burt etc have left the airport so he may expect them to still be there to back him up

I'm with you on the 'all kinds of crazy' going down. I could see a showdown between The Mallers and The Residents beginning but interrupted by an attack by the Zeds culminating in Scratch and perhaps a few of the surviving Mallers being taken aboard the chopper as either prisoners or refugees.

[GD_Elite]

If Saul's plan is to take a whole bunch of people to attack the mallers when they come to LAX, what is to stop them just shooting Lizzy. Saul may be reckless, but he isn't going to try something that stupid and risky to Lizzy without some sort of plan.

[uuhhhuuu]

Did anyone else catch the part mentioning about the hospital having a mental wing to it. and that in the beginning when Lizzy was checking the tivo, the news said that they were moving a convicted felon nicknamed "ink" to the mental hospital and thats when everything started to happen(the riots)?!?! i just thought this point should be brought up a bit. i have a feeling this will come back in the story.

[Osiris]

If Saul's plan is to take a whole bunch of people to attack the mallers when they come to LAX, what is to stop them just shooting Lizzy. Saul may be reckless, but he isn't going to try something that stupid and risky to Lizzy without some sort of plan.


He doesn't seem to have any plan beyond finding Lizzy.

[nikvoodoo]

Did anyone else catch the part mentioning about the hospital had a mental wing to it. and that in the beginning when Lizzy was checking the tivo, the news said that they were moving a convicted felon nicknamed "ink" to the mental hospital and thats when everything started to happen(the riots)?!?! i just thought this point should be brought up a bit. i have a feeling this will come back in the story.

Don't worry. It was mentioned already ;)

[Osiris]

Did anyone else catch the part mentioning about the hospital having a mental wing to it. and that in the beginning when Lizzy was checking the tivo, the news said that they were moving a convicted felon nicknamed "ink" to the mental hospital and thats when everything started to happen(the riots)?!?! i just thought this point should be brought up a bit. i have a feeling this will come back in the story.

Chapter and time code please.

[nikvoodoo]

Chapter and time code please.

It's chapter 2-3, 20:50, but it doesn't necessarily correlate to the start of the riots. That's an assumption right now. The broadcast doesn't say what time Bill Roberts/Ink was being transported from jail to the mental facility. And of course we still don't know that Bill Roberts/Ink is Patient Zero, or just a very convenient person to turn quickly in the outbreak.

[Osiris]

It's chapter 2-3, 20:50

Thanks, Moves.

[Miss]

The idea comes from Scratch wanting revenge for killing Latch. Saul knows Scratch has Lizzy, meaning if he offers a trade he can get his girlfriend back.

And he really doesn't even need to "trade" Pegs for Lizzy per se. He just needs to let Scratch know where Pegs is right now (with no defense other than Datu and Victor). If Saul has been listening in on the walkies, he would have a pretty good idea that Burt/Kalani are no longer at LAX, and Victor might be a pimp, but he isn't going to be able to take out an entire squad of Mallers before they finally get him.

Thanks, that idea makes some sort of sense

[Guestmaster]

Here's something to think about - the hospital appears to have been subject to lots of zombie activity. Considering that the arena blew up only hours before, that must mean that zombies were there for quite some time before. If that is where the tattooing was taking place, why weren't they there permanently before? Why the arena? It doesn't make sense for the zombies to set up in the arena, even though the hospital is where they are (presumably) working on the creatures.

[Miss]

First of all welcome to the forums! Scratch wants Pegs because Pegs killed Latch and Scratch want her revenge.

Ok I forgot that it was Pegs who killed Scratch Time to do a relisten to that section of the season(s) to refresh it in my mind

[Wicked Sid]

I'm going to go ahead and say TOWTM, or his stand-in, were experimenting on survivors and biters. And then I'm going to say called it.

Great episode. Really thought (Read: Hoped) someone was going to die though.

[GD_Elite]

First of all I am pretty sure that the arena blew up the day before the events at the hospital. Maybe the arena was just a big enough area to fit them all in. Especially if they are doing gruesome things to survivors and having all the other zombies watch? Your guess is as good as anyone elses.

[MrScott101]

Wow that took me about an hour to read through 15+ pages of thoughts. I for one would like to bring up the point that Saul getting Pegs is a major assumption being made. Neither party suggesting or insinuated that she was a potential trade piece. Also, I don't think Saul has any intention of heading back to the tower or LAX because of the time consumation that it would take. He's most likely already thought of a scheme and probably has something to do with any, some, or parts of bodies laying around the arena.

I'd also be willing to be that Scratch is also bluffing. I don't think Lizzy, Tar or Bricks have made it out of there yet or at least haven't met back with Scratch. I see a double bluff going on here.

I did think that was a fantastic episode and my coworkers probably got a kick out seeing me jump a few inches out of my seat during the mental hospital part!

[bequita]

Jesus H. Christ.

I cannot stop screaming with everything that came to light this episode!!!!!!!!!

Victor is totally pimp.

But Saul's the one tryin' to be tradin' ladies for ladies.

[Michael Farris]

I am conflicted on whether or not Saul having Pegs hostage for a trade is a bluff. On one hand, I wouldn't want to think of Saul as someone selfish enough to kidnap one of his friends for personal gain. On the other hand, Saul is an idiot.

[Wicked Sid]

If Saul Tink is the traitor/Rat, I'm going to have to yell from the rooftops:

"Called it!"

[Osiris]

Ok I forgot that it was Pegs who killed Scratch Time to do a relisten to that section of the season(s) to refresh it in my mind

Latch. Scratch is alive and kickin'... because she really IS all that.

[Miss]

Latch. Scratch is alive and kickin'... because she really IS all that.

hehe I meant latch was on the phone at the same time that I was typing so a little distracted,

[Osiris]

hehe I meant latch was on the phone at the same time that I was typing so a little distracted,

<3

[gamergirllovesu]

oh man great episode I'm on team "Saul is trading peggs". He sounded sinister enough to be considering such actions, but hes also Saul so he probably has some crazy show down plan that may involve the colony. As for the hospital i think the "Doctor zombie" has been there for quite some time i just think the arena was for fun and after the fun is had Dr.Z uses the spare parts. I mean where else can you find the needles and motors you need to do all the tattoos we have heard about you cant find those supplies at the arena. As for the rush of zombies I think after the explosion they all decided to go there because its their second base where they brought all there wounded to get Dr. Z to patch them up. Btw i loved the super creepy laugh! That made my day. That whole scene was interesting almost as crazy as Riley and Angel crawling in the corps pile.

[Heyyouinthebushes]

First, great episode! And great finish to an amazing chapter.

Now some thoughts:

Converting humans to zombies - this does seem plausible. The mental ward shop scene gives us reason to think some tinkering is going on (a la the claws and tattoos on the little ones). It also gives us a reason for why some humans were kept alive and others are food fodder. If zombie shop class was happening at the arena as well, we could see the return of Samantha in zombie form.

Pin Stripe - in one of the early posts of this chapter part (sorry for not giving credit where credits due, but am being lazy) it was speculated that pin stripe is a pawn in a larger plot. Since pin stripe has demonstrated intelligence, could his relative inaction with Riley and Kalani be a result of him having bigger fish to fry, namely figuring who/what is using him as a pawn? I fully recognize this has a lot of "ifs" that need confirming to be true, but the thought entered my mind and thought I'd share.

Trade bait - here are my predictions on who Saul has in mind in order from most to least likely:

Pegs - the obvious choice. Scratch wants to get her hands on Pegs, Pegs is accessible (relatively unguarded at LAX), and she is good bait in a bluff.

Saul himself - hard to know exactly why Saul would think they would trade Lizzie for himself, but I could see him thinking it was a heroic action. Also usable for a bluff.

The "rat" - Saul thinks Lewis is the rat, and he will think the Mallers will trade member for member.

The actual rat - hard to know how Saul would know who the actual rat is, but snooping around their former confines may have turned something up. Same rationale in trade as Lewis, member for member.

Latch's body - we don't know for sure Scratch picked up Latch's body, but it is reasonable to think so. Similarly, it is reasonable to think Scratch would have buried Latch's body. Saul's snooping around may have uncovered the burial site. It may seem a bit rude to desecrate Latch's grave, but Saul's in a desperate spot and any advantage helps.

Someone valuable picked up along the way - if Saul found someone valuable enough to trade, the reason is obvious. I don't like this option because it is too convenient.

Angel - remember back in season one when Latch and Scratch visit the tower (help with chapter-episode-time please) Scratch says she recognizes Angel. Also, Angel has the unsourced ability to hot-wire cars. Could this be the payoff to those setups? Saul's snooping could have turned up a connection. Again, this option has a lot of "ifs" as well (which is why it's my least likely), but it strikes me as a possibilty.

Sorry for the long post.

[Heyyouinthebushes]

Also, I don't think Saul has any intention of heading back to the tower or LAX because of the time consumation that it would take.

I would argue Saul does have time. Since Lizzie isn't dead yet, and her recordings revealed that the Mallers are purposefully keeping her, Lizzie's continued survival isn't a time concern. So, if Saul's trade is worth it to Scratch, there's reason to think she'd wait.

[HardKor]

I would argue Saul does have time. Since Lizzie isn't dead yet, and her recordings revealed that the Mallers are purposefully keeping her, Lizzie's continued survival isn't a time concern. So, if Saul's trade is worth it to Scratch, there's reason to think she'd wait.
Well I agree that Saul has every reason to think he has time. How much time he really has depends on when his part of the story is happening in relation to the Burt,Angel,Riley, and Kalani story. And also whether those four are taking the helicopter to the Tower of back to LAX. Saul could find himself interrupted.

[uuhhhuuu]

Was it just me or did Riley say he caught her arrow?!?! wow Dr.NinjaZombie!!!

[Alex Conley]

Was it just me or did Riley say he caught her arrow?!?! wow Dr.NinjaZombie!!!

Yep, which leans toward him being beyond the strength or speed of a normal man. The normal biters seem to be strong only due to the fact....they lack any regard for there own body. But, not necessarily stronger than the average guy.


It would not be uncommon for her arrow to travel upward of 260 feet per second which equals 177mph. And thats on the slower side for compound bows.

[Jeebogs]

Was it just me or did Riley say he caught her arrow?!?! wow Dr.NinjaZombie!!!

It's not really clear, I don't think she actually says he caught it, just that "it's not possible" and "how did he do that?" I guess it could be that the arrow hit and he's pulled it out without it having any effect. pin:)

But if he did catch it mid air....
*ahem*



Cover art: Whats the odds on Riley and Kalani coming face to face with 'might not be but could be' pinstripes, and Riley shooting off an arrow at him only for him to catch it mid-air with cat like reflexes?

[GD_Elite]

@Jeebogs
Good call, just wondering what cats you know that can catch arrows?

[Jeebogs]

@Jeebogs
Good call, just wondering what cats you know that can catch arrows?

You mean, you don't know any?

[GD_Elite]

You mean, you don't know any?

I only tried to see if they could catch arrows once. The authorities weren't keen on the idea of me trying a second time.

[7oddisdead]

wow..so i spend 12 hours away from here and this thread blows up...shoudnt be surprised is guess. anyways

something that i havent seen mentioned, is the subtle hostility saul has been showing toward michael. if you go back through the last few chapters, you'll find several examples of this. im inclined to agree with the few who say saul has little intention of he or lizzie returning to the tower. i could see him having the mentality of "i had to go fight for the one i love, michael can do the same"

someone brought up the 8-2 2-1 walkie channel reference...chapter 2 ep 1 was the chapter we first meet lizzie. chapter 8-2,....this is more interesting. 8-2 is the chapter in which the crew went out on the watertower mission. its a rather uneventful ep. . . . except this is the one in which we first hear of cindy being dug up hhmmm

and one from the crackpot file. i found the entire scene within the hospital to be very emotional. very gripping storytelling that made you care for some charaters you hate..(kalani..for me)and nearly rip your heart out of your chest for the ones you do care about(burt). but, something struck me on my like 4th listen or so.....with the musical score, the entire hosp. scene had a very dream-like quality to it. i dunno, its hard to describe. but i could have easily seen the whole thing playing through and at the end, burt wakes up to find hes been taken prisoner a'la arena style...80's movie vibe bagan to run through my head at that point and i cant make it go away...

[Grognaurd]

The celerity Zombie in the mental wing is most certainly one we have seen before. In the chapter cover, I can "see" that his hand is damaged. Either bloodied or fresh scar tissue. I believe this to be from where Burt shot the zombie at long range late in season 1. Riley even states his -- can not recall exact wording -- malformed? hand.

This is bad news. Because instead of running down and decaying away, at least some of the zombies are gettting smarter with hyped physical abilities.

This zombie shows up at the Tower. He has problems entering the code, but gets it right. The problems would indicate low intelliegnce or poor dexterity. Now, we see him in Doctor Frankensteins basement. Where he (possibly someone else) is triming the overgrown finger tips (and possibly toes) to nasty ass claws as well as do it yourself tattoo parlor. These do not really jive together well. Unless the zzombies are continuing to evolve.

[Dr. Hatchet]

I'm gonna say this, sorry I can read 18 pages and not go crazy lol
But think of where they were at. A mental hospitle, all the blood and stuff may have been becasue the crazy people there went feral. Also I think that Saul is gonna show up and just kill the mallers and get his Liz back

[Grognaurd]

Cane Hill was a psychiatric hospital built to care for patients in the eastern part of Surrey. Charles Henry Howell designed the main buildings which had a Latin motto that translates:

‘I bring relief to troubled minds’.

oppps.. Aversos Compono Animos

http://www.thetimechamber.co.uk/Sites/Hospital/Cane%20Hill/NursesBadge.php

http://www.talkurbex.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/3549835654_147db42d10.jpg

I found this image huntingly familiar. It really matches the spirit of the chapter covers, imho.

[GD_Elite]

Cane Hill was a psychiatric hospital built to care for patients in the eastern part of Surrey. Charles Henry Howell designed the main buildings which had a Latin motto that translates:

‘I bring relief to troubled minds’.

oppps.. Aversos Compono Animos

Wow. Nice find.

Now the question is, how did an asylum in England end up in LA?

[7oddisdead]

arthur...first off, where the hell have you been?..second..when was said hospital founded?...ill go digging for myself, but maybe you know offhand

[mem]

seriously good episode. The only thing it was missing was dart vader, frodo and the terminator. Nah it was way better than that stuff. So glad Burt and Angel are out of there. I wasn't wanting them to go out like that. Great catch mr dude in a suit that may or may not be pin striped but that i dont really care if it is pinstriped or polka dotted or has small images of mothra on it. Also i get why someone in the main chat said Cliffhanger ! lol Great work !!!

[Deleted_Username]

arthur...first off, where the hell have you been?..second..when was said hospital founded?...ill go digging for myself, but maybe you know offhand


Lots of info here:

http://www.simoncornwell.com/urbex/projects/ch/index.htm
Cane Hill Hospital: 1882 - 2009

[7oddisdead]

Lots of info here:

http://www.simoncornwell.com/urbex/projects/ch/index.htm
Cane Hill Hospital: 1882 - 2009

yep thats the same info i found...its totally meaningless perhaps. but a majority of the names used in this storyline originated largely from that era in one way or another...

[HardKor]

and one from the crackpot file. i found the entire scene within the hospital to be very emotional. very gripping storytelling that made you care for some charaters you hate..(kalani..for me)and nearly rip your heart out of your chest for the ones you do care about(burt). but, something struck me on my like 4th listen or so.....with the musical score, the entire hosp. scene had a very dream-like quality to it. i dunno, its hard to describe. but i could have easily seen the whole thing playing through and at the end, burt wakes up to find hes been taken prisoner a'la arena style...80's movie vibe bagan to run through my head at that point and i cant make it go away...

Oh God I hope this isn't the case, but now you've got me paranoid. To quote Angel, "Why would you say that?" :p

[yarri]

Angel and Burt were the dynamic duo this episode. I had my heart in my teeth when they were trapped in the room. Angel proved himself as one bad ass. He was fierce. Burt was .. wow.. just wow. I'm so glad they didn't die.

[timberwoof]

I don't know about the whole Saul trading somebody for another. I'm thinking along the lines that Saul is going to pull a one man booby trap and so Special Forces on their ass. He may call in some Zombie back up as distractions. Or he may get a couple people from the tower to help. Saul doesn't seem to be in the right state of mind and is bound and determined to get Lizzy back. But something tells me he's not going to put somebody else up for it. If anything of the sort he may offer Pegs up but won't go through with it.

[Grognaurd]

This is the way the world ends. This is the way the world ends.This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper. T.S. Eliot "The Hollow Men"
.

Nice, I have always liked, well the first half anyway...


FIRE AND ICE
By Robert Frost

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire....


Frozen Zombies just prolongs the problem. Burn em!

With the 4th and so many things around the house and family, did not have much time on line. I am glad it was an "off" week.

But, I tell you what, if I was Saul's dad, Burt would have to hold me back from kicking Saul's ass for his reckless behavior. As "Pop" (my Grandfather) said and did, "I would take him out back and beat him until he could not stand. When he got back up, I would do it all over again...." Back then, timeouts were for sports only. 8)

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

I don't know about the whole Saul trading somebody for another. I'm thinking along the lines that Saul is going to pull a one man booby trap and so Special Forces on their ass. He may call in some Zombie back up as distractions. Or he may get a couple people from the tower to help. Saul doesn't seem to be in the right state of mind and is bound and determined to get Lizzy back. But something tells me he's not going to put somebody else up for it. If anything of the sort he may offer Pegs up but won't go through with it.

Wolf,

Saul came across very very lucid to me. It sounded like he was hip to something no one else was/is. He'd already come to conclusion that mallers had her and was resigned to it. He wasn't rushing off half cocked as it seemed when he first took off.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Wow. Nice find.

Now the question is, how did an asylum in England end up in LA?

Addendum to that question is why was an English "tourist" part of such a prominent story arch?? I don't believe in Coy'ekidinks!

[yarri]

Nice, I have always liked, well the first half anyway...


FIRE AND ICE
By Robert Frost

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire....


Frozen Zombies just prolongs the problem. Burn em!

With the 4th and so many things around the house and family, did not have much time on line. I am glad it was an "off" week.

But, I tell you what, if I was Saul's dad, Burt would have to hold me back from kicking Saul's ass for his reckless behavior. As "Pop" (my Grandfather) said and did, "I would take him out back and beat him until he could not stand. When he got back up, I would do it all over again...." Back then, timeouts were for sports only. 8)

That's bit of poetry is lovely Arther. My grandfather as well would have blistered my back end for behavior like Saul is doing. But I have faith something good will come of it. In his heart of hearts Saul is a good man.

[Blood & Ice Cream]

ALL TOGETHER NOW...
<austrian accent mode on> get to da choppa! http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2_Pna9eA6CU/TOr5NTXf20I/AAAAAAAAZJo/20KbDMNJ-xg/s1600/he.jpg

piccy is of a white bell medical helicopter with a solid blue tail with a red strip down the middle ;)

[symon_r]

Cane Hill was a psychiatric hospital built to care for patients in the eastern part of Surrey. Charles Henry Howell designed the main buildings which had a Latin motto that translates:

‘I bring relief to troubled minds’.

oppps.. Aversos Compono Animos


This is what I dug up yesterday (see post 130 on this thread) and decided against posting (whilst there are clear links to this episode it kind of didnt feel relevant).

For those who havent followed the various links the hospital became a haven for urban explorers after it closed and one of the highlights was an iconic watertower.

On a separate note. Saul claimed to be at Eastern Bay when he contacted the tower, what was he planning on doing if the Mallers had been their? If he wanted to offer the trade in person rather than over the radio does it lend extra credibility to the idea that he would go through with it (or at least with the bluff)?

[Blood & Ice Cream]

serious thoughts now...

1. why did Riley aim for the heart and not the head?

2. chapter 2 part 3 mentions Bill Roberts aka 'Ink' being transfered to a mental health facility on the Tivo recording = Caine Mental Hospital

3. the pointed silver pen with motor and needle, sounds like a tattoo gun to me - i.e. to mark the number five on the little ones

4. which movie did Burt reference for the C4 device? was it a zombie movie?

5. Riley was very pleased to see angel okay <i'm just sooo glad you are safe> mmmm... is Riley bi?

6. Burt joking about the helicopter not being on the helipad - seems to me he is on a constant downer and always expecting the worst, accepting death for a third time - at the hospital, two at Locked n Loaded, but what was the third?

7. Saul's plan of action will either be a) go back to the tower and openly plan with Michael about using Pegs as bait to get Lizzy back (i think Pegs would be up for it); or b) go get Pegs at LAX

[GD_Elite]

Addendum to that question is why was an English "tourist" part of such a prominent story arch?? I don't believe in Coy'ekidinks!

Lol, okay. So you think Pippin smuggled in an asylum from England? In a suitcase. hmmm...

[Osiris]

Lol, okay. So you think Pippin smuggled in an asylum from England? In a suitcase. hmmm...

That's how Pippin rolls, son... asylums in check luggage. Old school style.

[HardKor]

serious thoughts now...

1. why did Riley aim for the heart and not the head?

2. chapter 2 part 3 mentions Bill Roberts aka 'Ink' being transfered to a mental health facility on the Tivo recording = Caine Mental Hospital

3. the pointed silver pen with motor and needle, sounds like a tattoo gun to me - i.e. to mark the number five on the little ones

4. which movie did Burt reference for the C4 device? was it a zombie movie?

5. Riley was very pleased to see angel okay <i'm just sooo glad you are safe> mmmm... is Riley bi?

6. Burt joking about the helicopter not being on the helipad - seems to me he is on a constant downer and always expecting the worst, accepting death for a third time - at the hospital, two at Locked n Loaded, but what was the third?

7. Saul's plan of action will either be a) go back to the tower and openly plan with Michael about using Pegs as bait to get Lizzy back (i think Pegs would be up for it); or b) go get Pegs at LAX

1. Easier target. The zombies don't need a headshot to kill. Aiming for the center mass is easier.
2. My thoughts exactly
3. ditto
4. I Dunno. Any ideas anyone?
5. Or she might just see him as a close friend. Being glad he's not dead doesn't necessarily mean romantic interest.
6. He seemed sort of jovial when he cracked that joke, a bit of gallows humor after escaping a close call. As for the third time he was prepared for death: I thought maybe during the War, he was talking about running off alone, but he also seemed like he might be preparing to go out in a blaze of glory.
7. I'm thinking (b) he was careful to make sure the Tower wasn't listening before he contacted Scratch. So I think Michael's gonna be out of the loop on whatever it is Saul's planning.

[CantWaitForSeason3]

2. chapter 2 part 3 mentions Bill Roberts aka 'Ink' being transfered to a mental health facility on the Tivo recording = Caine Mental Hospital


Maybe i'm confusing/combining the two but didn't Angel say in 1-1 that they creatures on the freeway could have come from the mental institution. He added it was only 10 or so miles away? (pulling from recent memory) That was at the army base, was he referring to the same hospital or a different special mental hospital? Does the Tivo say "Caine" when it refers to the Mental institution?

[Griss]

As for who saul is going to offer up for trade. I think it might be pippin, Yes i know he is dead at this point but the bigger question is. Does saul know that?

[Osiris]

As for who saul is going to offer up for trade. I think it might be pippin, Yes i know he is dead at this point but the bigger question is. Does saul know that?

I just can't see Scratch giving a damn about Pippin. He's there for one purpose only... subversion. If he's not serving his purpose I see Scratch and Co. having little use for him. Just another mouth to feed.

[nikvoodoo]

As for who saul is going to offer up for trade. I think it might be pippin, Yes i know he is dead at this point but the bigger question is. Does saul know that?

Saul does know that. Kalani and Datu bring Burt and Saul up to speed when they arrive at LAX to start working on the chopper. Saul knows Pippin is dead and that Lewis is in custody for the murder.

And as Osiris said above: Pippin's one purpose could have been to keep the Tower distracted by having them focus inward, while the Mallers are performing activities around their walls. After all, from the Mallers POV the Tower are a bunch of authoritative assholes and bullies: They stole their tanker (which they were planning on using to kill the zombies en masse), they spied on their home first, they ignored the offer to be let into the Tower, they fired the first shots of the War, and the Tower called the zombies to attack the Mallers (they don't know its a fact, but they do suspect it).

If I were the Mallers, I'd want these group of aggressive assholes (who also are the remnants of the authority structure that imprisoned them) to be distracted at all costs.

EDIT: Fixed my typo (Kalani vs. Pippin being dead), so I deleted your post questioning what I was talking about.

[symon_r]

They stole their tanker (which they were planning on using to kill the zombies en masse),

That's a good point. How long before the Mallers attacked the arena did the tower take that tanker? It feels like a very long time ago; did Durai know about the arena at that point or was his plan a more general mass cull back then?

[Blood & Ice Cream]

Maybe i'm confusing/combining the two but didn't Angel say in 1-1 that they creatures on the freeway could have come from the mental institution. He added it was only 10 or so miles away? (pulling from recent memory) That was at the army base, was he referring to the same hospital or a different special mental hospital? Does the Tivo say "Caine" when it refers to the Mental institution?

the Tivo doesn't mention Caine, just that Ink was being transferred to a mental health facility after his plea for insanity was accepted in a multiple homicide case in Santa Monica

[Osiris]

Saul does know that. Kalani and Datu bring Burt and Saul up to speed when they arrive at LAX to start working on the chopper. Saul knows Pippin is dead and that Lewis is in custody for the murder.

And as Osiris said above: Pippin's one purpose could have been to keep the Tower distracted by having them focus inward, while the Mallers are performing activities around their walls. After all, from the Mallers POV the Tower are a bunch of authoritative assholes and bullies: They stole their tanker (which they were planning on using to kill the zombies en masse), they spied on their home first, they ignored the offer to be let into the Tower, they fired the first shots of the War, and the Tower called the zombies to attack the Mallers (they don't know its a fact, but they do suspect it).

If I were the Mallers, I'd want these group of aggressive assholes (who also are the remnants of the authority structure that imprisoned them) to be distracted at all costs.

EDIT: Fixed my typo (Kalani vs. Pippin being dead), so I deleted your post questioning what I was talking about.

I'm inclined to agree with Capt. Typographical Error III. The only reason we're on the Resident's side is because its their side of the story we're hearing. Who knows how we would feel had this all been from the Maller's perspective. Pippin is no barganing chip and Saul knows it. He won't bother trying that route.

[nikvoodoo]

I'm inclined to agree with Capt. Typographical Error III.

Jackass ;)

Worst part? I can't even blame it on being on a mobile device this time. I was on my lappy and decided that I felt like typing Kalani instead of Pippin as the murdered subject.


That's a good point. How long before the Mallers attacked the arena did the tower take that tanker? It feels like a very long time ago; did Durai know about the arena at that point or was his plan a more general mass cull back then?

We don't really know how long it was. The best guess I've been able to throw at it: The Mallers originally tried to set up shop at the Arena and quickly discovered how piss poor a plan that was. That's one of the best reasons I can think of as to why they'd know that and be hatching the Tanker Truck Bomb plan.

By every estimate I've ever seen on "Life After People" on the History Channel, the power grid every where would fail within a week to two weeks without human intervention. So most definitely by the middle of June '09 S/B/L had stolen the tanker.

[Osiris]

Jackass ;)

Worst part? I can't even blame it on being on a mobile device this time. I was on my lappy and decided that I felt like typing Kalani instead of Pippin as the murdered subject.



We don't really know how long it was. The best guess I've been able to throw at it: The Mallers originally tried to set up shop at the Arena and quickly discovered how piss poor a plan that was. That's one of the best reasons I can think of as to why they'd know that and be hatching the Tanker Truck Bomb plan.

By every estimate I've ever seen on "Life After People" on the History Channel, the power grid every where would fail within a week to two weeks without human intervention. So most definitely by the middle of June '09 was when S/B/L stole the tanker.

I'm not entirely certain that I agree with your assessment of the Mallers having tried to set up operations at the Arena as a reason they would know where to launch their attack. I would be inclined to believe it was something much more innocuous such as they had attempted to scavenge supplies from there at one point. Perhaps searching for food or fuel?

[GD_Elite]

For all we know the mallers could have got some locators and tried an experiment of their own.

[nikvoodoo]

I'm not entirely certain that I agree with your assessment of the Mallers having tried to set up operations at the Arena as a reason they would know where to launch their attack. I would be inclined to believe it was something much more innocuous such as they had attempted to scavenge supplies from there at one point. Perhaps searching for food or fuel?

That would be the other option I considered, however I'm trying to give the Mallers more credit than holding up in a strip mall as their first choice. The arena would have been a much better plan than the strip mall. But yeah, scouring for supplies also makes sense.

[Osiris]

That would be the other option I considered, however I'm trying to give the Mallers more credit than holding up in a strip mall as their first choice. The arena would have been a much better plan than the strip mall. But yeah, scouring for supplies also makes sense.

I'm going to have to go back to the map after I finish writing this blog entry... you've raised an interesting question here.

[symon_r]

The best guess I've been able to throw at it: The Mallers originally tried to set up shop at the Arena and quickly discovered how piss poor a plan that was. That's one of the best reasons I can think of as to why they'd know that and be hatching the Tanker Truck Bomb plan.


I suppose the other question is why did Durai want to attack the arena?

Was he just trying to reduce their numbers? That would imply he doesn't know that the issue has affected far more than the local area or believed there to be a specific target at the arena?

[Wicked Sid]

Less enemies at any time is better than more enemies all the time.

I could see that Durai has an understanding of how far reaching the 'issue' actually is, seeing as he went down south and is now, most likely, gathering more precise intel on where the infection first hit and what the rate of growth of said 'issue' actually is.

[ryanlm09]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but has anyone else heard subtle references to Jurassic Park? example: Angel:"What did I touch?", Burt/Angel holding the door without locks on, and others I cannot remember. Maybe I'm just crazy

[Adventureless_Hero]

IMO these are the folks on the table to die in the next episode: SCRATCH, BURT and/or SAUL.

I know that Saul is not going to actually trade Pegs for Lizzie, though he may offer that exchange to Scratch. In fact the episode could be played in such a way that the audience, us, believe he's taking Pegs to Scratch, having kidnapped her from LAX. We could hear Victor is in pursuit, or following behind and he radios the Nest to inform them they are on their way to rendevoius with the Mallers. Confrontation ensues! Saul could actually scheme with Pegs and Victor, telling them that this is the only way for them to get Lizzie back AND finally get rid of a major threat: Scratch. So I figure Scratch is going down with the season finally. Saul may get injured, or come close to death, again, but I think 'ol Burt may swoop in just in time to sacrafice himself. :'(

So I'm wondering how exactly Pinstripes is building these creatures. I know he uses clippers to sharpen the nails, and tattoos them. But how is he making them short in stature? Also, is he responsible for creating the Behemoths? Kalani and Riley describe a room in the mental hospital that has it's door ripped off and the door frame smashed open, as though something big had gone through. Also, the bed in that room is covered in blood and has several needles and bottles around it. Is Pinstripes a bad ass biologist dude? Maybe he once worked for the military but snapped and went serial killer?

Kalani confused me further when he said he was almost positive Pinstripes is the one from the Arena. Does this mean that the theory of two leader zombies (The one with markings, and Pinstripes) are in fact, the same? And a little side note, do you think when Pinstripes caught the arrow he recognized it as being the same thing lodged in the eye socket of one of his Behemoths? Pinstripes could now have a personal interest in Riley! ;) Dun dun dun!!! Vendetta!

[Adventureless_Hero]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but has anyone else heard subtle references to Jurassic Park? example: Angel:"What did I touch?", Burt/Angel holding the door without locks on, and others I cannot remember. Maybe I'm just crazy

No way! I thought I was crazy for making those connections too! Also, the ending is the same, a helicopter escape. It could have been done intentionally. Jurassic Park was a place where man was fooling with the science in such a way that it was perverting the natural order of life. Cain General Hospital could be a comparison to Jurassic Park; a place where science is creating the abominations that wreak havok on humanity and totally bump us down a notch on the food chain.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

[QUOTE=nikvoodoo;24185]Jackass ;)

We don't really know how long it was. The best guess I've been able to throw at it: The Mallers originally tried to set up shop at the Arena and quickly discovered how piss poor a plan that was. That's one of the best reasons I can think of as to why they'd know that and be hatching the Tanker Truck Bomb plan.

QUOTE]

Nik,
When did you come up with that cockamamie theory? LOL. This is the first time I've heard this from you mate. It's counter to my Durai Theory (which i'm not gonna go over for the trillionth time), but it's actually not that bad an idea except how would a couple hundred live in such an open space? The sky boxes are basically the only rooms available in an arena aren't they? Everyone else would have to live down on the field/floor/rink

As far as the Arena being a better place than a mall.. how so? You have practically everything you need in a mall. It may be more pourous security wise, but they had the manpower to make it work. Other than that, they had pleny of space to live, to store things and not to mention a ton of stuff they didn't have to go searching for because it's right there.

I also see them using the stores as living quarters and areas to keep the slaves.

[ryanlm09]

No way! I thought I was crazy for making those connections too! Also, the ending is the same, a helicopter escape. It could have been done intentionally. Jurassic Park was a place where man was fooling with the science in such a way that it was perverting the natural order of life. Cain General Hospital could be a comparison to Jurassic Park; a place where science is creating the abominations that wreak havok on humanity and totally bump us down a notch on the food chain.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed the connection. I don't know if it was intentional on KC's part but I noticed some events that were related to JP. I went through the whole chapter last night and noticed that some of the music selection was also JPish. Hmmm... maybe just my fanboy ways spilling over

[nate of the dead]

[QUOTE=symon_r;24192]I suppose the other question is why did Durai want to attack the arena?

My guess is that he was either trying to piss off the zombies so they would attack the tower or he knew that attacking their base and trying to kill them all at once was their best chance for survival. As Michael said in the chapter were they followed the zombies to the arena, its better to attack them all instead of picking them off one at at time. When Tar said they didnt have enough tankers to do what they needed to do, they didnt kill all of them in the arena just a bulk of them

[GD_Elite]

I suppose the other question is why did Durai want to attack the arena?

Was he just trying to reduce their numbers? That would imply he doesn't know that the issue has affected far more than the local area or believed there to be a specific target at the arena?

Scratch has a whole speech in 21-2 ~8:15 about why they are doing it. She says it is because the zombies will follow them wherever they go.

[nikvoodoo]

Nik,
When did you come up with that cockamamie theory? LOL. This is the first time I've heard this from you mate. It's counter to my Durai Theory (which i'm not gonna go over for the trillionth time), but it's actually not that bad an idea except how would a couple hundred live in such an open space? The sky boxes are basically the only rooms available in an arena aren't they? Everyone else would have to live down on the field/floor/rink

As far as the Arena being a better place than a mall.. how so? You have practically everything you need in a mall. It may be more pourous security wise, but they had the manpower to make it work. Other than that, they had pleny of space to live, to store things and not to mention a ton of stuff they didn't have to go searching for because it's right there.

I also see them using the stores as living quarters and areas to keep the slaves.

It comes simply from the need to figure out exactly how Durai knows about the Arena so early. And trying to live there makes sense to me. There are more places in an arena to sleep than just sky boxes. There would be offices, locker rooms, training rooms, and things like that.

Besides can't you just imagine some Maller being like "there'll be beer there!"

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

It comes simply from the need to figure out exactly how Durai knows about the Arena so early. And trying to live there makes sense to me. There are more places in an arena to sleep than just sky boxes. There would be offices, locker rooms, training rooms, and things like that.

Besides can't you just imagine some Maller being like "there'll be beer there!"

I'll buy that for a dollar! Kinda. LOL!
Good point on the offices and stuff, but i'll tell you that having to live like that at the Embassy in Haiti.. cramped.

[symon_r]

Scratch has a whole speech in 21-2 ~8:15 about why they are doing it. She says it is because the zombies will follow them wherever they go.

Yes that would explain it :)

I'd completely forgotten about that part of the show but now you mention it I know exactly where I was when I heard it

[Adventureless_Hero]

Say does anyone know what movie Burt got the idea to use the explosives like that? He was about to say what movie, but I think Angel said he didn't care to know. I do though!

[diosa]

You are right about them sleeping the night, I missed that.
Also good point about Kelly not telling Saul about the zombies outside the tower. I wouldn't have thought that they would have killed all the zombies outside the tower because I thought it was suggested they were going to be extra guards. I guess they rejected that idea. or Kelly is stupid.

Other points to note: At the mall they had all the radios lined up so that they could scan all the CB channels. The fact that Scratch picked up the radio after Sauls first try makes it seem like they have found Durai, and are able to scan all chanels again (It seems unlikely that they would have 40 radios in Scratchs car). Yet if this is the case, they can't have gone too far away because they are still in range, and the colony is probably out of range usually.

Also, it sounds like the mental ward was kept a secret before this all happened. Would Angel have known about this place since episode 1 when it was brought up? I believe on the google map, there was a different mental facility in range of LA too. Could this have been where Ink went after his trial? Is that why he still spends time here. But the one with the markings gets around. The Arena, the hospital, the other tower, the tower twice, two convoy ambushes. And it has superhuman reflexes? Testing on mental patients is quite common in this sort of genre. But then what is ground zero? I'm so confused :(

I agree with everything you say. I have a spin on it. How about Saul found someone important when he was digging around the wreckage at the arena and wants to trade hostages. They fled leaving the injured. There are also at least 2 tankers out there. (Fuel solution for the planes? Hopefully it's diesel, or whatever planes need. Jet fuel?)

And let's say Tanya was the lawyer that represented tatoo guy and knows the secret behind everything that is happening. Have you ever heard her ask why? She kept telling her nephew "you don't understand what is happening right now". We automatically think she's being her witchy self. But what if...

And the nails on the floor could be the cuttings from the little pale ones. The one that got his arm ripped of had nails filed into tips. I dunno, sounded irregular.

If Saul traded Peggy, he would risk turning the house against. He's trying to bring Liz home, not get kicked out.

Can't get enough of the show. The members here are articulate. Thanks for the entertainment!

[nikvoodoo]

I agree with everything you say. I have a spin on it. How about Saul found someone important when he was digging around the wreckage at the arena and wants to trade hostages. They fled leaving the injured. There are also at least 2 tankers out there. (Fuel solution for the planes? Hopefully it's diesel, or whatever planes need. Jet fuel?)

And let's say Tanya was the lawyer that represented tatoo guy and knows the secret behind everything that is happening. Have you ever heard her ask why? She kept telling her nephew "you don't understand what is happening right now". We automatically think she's being her witchy self. But what if...

And the nails on the floor could be the cuttings from the little pale ones. The one that got his arm ripped of had nails filed into tips. I dunno, sounded irregular.

If Saul traded Peggy, he would risk turning the house against. He's trying to bring Liz home, not get kicked out.

Can't get enough of the show. The members here are articulate. Thanks for the entertainment!

As the person who accidentally typed Kalani was dead when I meant Pippin the other day, I think it's apropos that I mention I think you meant Kelly, not Tanya as the lawyer for Ink. However, if she was Ink's lawyer, she wouldn't be able to be baby sitting Tommy and his sister. She would have to be in court that morning.

[diosa]

As the person who accidentally typed Kalani was dead when I meant Pippin the other day, I think it's apropos that I mention I think you meant Kelly, not Tanya as the lawyer for Ink. However, if she was Ink's lawyer, she wouldn't be able to be baby sitting Tommy and his sister. She would have to be in court that morning.

Yup, totally meant Kelly. My bad zom:(

Not necesarily. They showed up later. Perhaps she gut stucking picking him after work or something... I just want to find out what is happening. At this point I'd welcome a tape with a breathless scientist explaining how they didn't mean for the experiment to go horribly wrong!

[Osiris]

As the person who accidentally typed Kalani was dead when I meant Pippin the other day, I think it's apropos that I mention I think you meant Kelly, not Tanya as the lawyer for Ink. However, if she was Ink's lawyer, she wouldn't be able to be baby sitting Tommy and his sister. She would have to be in court that morning.

Funny, I don't recall that incident. I don't think Kelly was Ink's lawyer, but anything is possible. I'm leaning toward Skittles being Ink.

[nikvoodoo]

Funny, I don't recall that incident. I don't think Kelly was Ink's lawyer, but anything is possible. I'm leaning toward Skittles being Ink.

Of course... You wouldn't recall something like that....;)

But if Skittles was Ink, don't you think there would be some mention of him being covered in tattoos from head to toe? even in a zombie apocalypse that seems like it would be a noteworthy thing.

However, I will say that there's the general assumption that Skittles was from the Other Tower. That theory is one I don't buy into. I believe it's more likely that he was interned in a mental hospital (hmm...) and might have been around when he saw his friends get killed....and that could have been by Ink's hands.

[Grognaurd]

I am in the camp that Skittles was from the other tower. The straw that I grasp is that Skittles says he recognizes Kalani. Kalani does not recognize skittles, but Kalani was only there a couple of days before its fall. I think the other tower had a lot more people in it. They sent out a team of scavengers with ~20 people. It is kinda like asking the new kid in a school. He might not recognize everyone, but everyone would recognize him.

Ink was headed towards a criminally insane type hospital. Maybe skittles was there as a pyromaniac or something. But, we have not seen any evidence of criminal behavior in skittles.

[nikvoodoo]

I am in the camp that Skittles was from the other tower. The straw that I grasp is that Skittles says he recognizes Kalani. Kalani does not recognize skittles, but Kalani was only there a couple of days before its fall. I think the other tower had a lot more people in it. They sent out a team of scavengers with ~20 people. It is kinda like asking the new kid in a school. He might not recognize everyone, but everyone would recognize him.

Ink was headed towards a criminally insane type hospital. Maybe skittles was there as a pyromaniac or something. But, we have not seen any evidence of criminal behavior in skittles.

Skittles was seen coming from the direction of the Arena. If he had been hiding out in that general area, he could have seen Kalani being taken to the arena after he was captured. That's the straw I'm clinging to. ;)

Ink was headed to a criminal insane asylum. But there's no mention of where he stayed before or during the trial.

[diosa]

I concur with the skittles/mental patient theory.

That second tower had a lot of people who also seem to end up all over the place. Hope going so far south, and blind has always sounded off to me. Skittles. Perhaps Kalani. Hope's mother. I am really curious to hear about all the innovations Hope's mom was alluding to.

It feels like we are getting really close to finding out about patient zero. This show is sooo exciting! I can't believe everyone isn't listening to it.

[Osiris]

Of course... You wouldn't recall something like that....;)

But if Skittles was Ink, don't you think there would be some mention of him being covered in tattoos from head to toe? even in a zombie apocalypse that seems like it would be a noteworthy thing.

However, I will say that there's the general assumption that Skittles was from the Other Tower. That theory is one I don't buy into. I believe it's more likely that he was interned in a mental hospital (hmm...) and might have been around when he saw his friends get killed....and that could have been by Ink's hands.

Did I miss the part where it was mentioned that Ink was covered head to toe in tattoos? Or am I on crack? Chapter/Timecode please, sir.

[Osiris]

A lot of times you don't see the evidence of criminal behaviour until it is far, far too late. It is also possible that Skittles recognized Kalani from the Arena.

[nikvoodoo]

Did I miss the part where it was mentioned that Ink was covered head to toe in tattoos? Or am I on crack? Chapter/Timecode please, sir.

Yup. Yup you did.

2-3 after 20:30. That's how Bill Roberts got the "Ink' nickname is he's covered in tattoos.

[Osiris]

Yup. Yup you did.

2-3 after 20:30. That's how Bill Roberts got the "Ink' nickname is he's covered in tattoos.

Well shit the bed. I completely missed that! I'm an idiot.

He peeled off his skin! Sneaky bastard!

[nikvoodoo]

well shit the bed. I completely missed that! I'm an idiot.

He peeled off his skin! Sneaky bastard!

quick! Get some salt!!!! That'll stop the bastard!

[Osiris]

quick! Get some salt!!!! That'll stop the bastard!

Well... I mean... aw crap. My last blog needs some edits. I feel like a tard.

[Adventureless_Hero]

Nah, c'mon. You can't really believe that Skittles come from the mental hospital, do you? He says he witnessed his friends die, which granted his 'friends' could have been fellow patients, but I believe this was a reference to the other tower. The fact that he recognized Kalani supports this. I don't think that would have been written in the story just for the hell of it. Kalani discusses how locked down CJ had made thier tower yet one managed to get in and pop open the flood gates (Pinstripes M.O.). This is likely where the situation in which Skittles could have seen Pinstripes (well at the time I don't think Ink had aquired Paul's suit, so who knows what he looked like then). It's also very possible that Skittles could have been one of the few captured rather than killed. He, along with Samantha, Kalani, and numerous others could have been taken to the Arena. Maybe Skittles escaped the arena and that's why Angel, Riley, and Datu see him on their way there. Though I think it's most likely that Skittles escaped the initial zombie raid on Tower #2 and has been living in the streets since then. It may have been that he just accidentally wandered too close to the arena and realized who/what lived there.

I just think the idea that Skittles came from the mental hospital seems born too much from imagination, kind of like the notion that Saul would disable the cars when he fled LAX :P

[7oddisdead]

I was talking to friend at work last night who also listens to the show, and we got on the subject of the arrow ink caught out of the air...the thing of interest about this as he was saying isn't the fact that he caught it, but that he managed to stop it. That type of thing would take tremendous hand strength and muscle dexterity..i mean think about it. Its a smooth shaft sliding though your hand...and he (as far as we know) Stopped it before it hit his body...no muscle decomposition there ...

Also...i haven't heard anybody address this fact. But what's up with the other room they looked In? " bloody bed, countless needles, and broken glass..more tattoos? Injections ? Making multiple inks?...hmm

[Osiris]

Nah, c'mon. You can't really believe that Skittles come from the mental hospital, do you? He says he witnessed his friends die, which granted his 'friends' could have been fellow patients, but I believe this was a reference to the other tower. The fact that he recognized Kalani supports this. I don't think that would have been written in the story just for the hell of it. Kalani discusses how locked down CJ had made thier tower yet one managed to get in and pop open the flood gates (Pinstripes M.O.). This is likely where the situation in which Skittles could have seen Pinstripes (well at the time I don't think Ink had aquired Paul's suit, so who knows what he looked like then). It's also very possible that Skittles could have been one of the few captured rather than killed. He, along with Samantha, Kalani, and numerous others could have been taken to the Arena. Maybe Skittles escaped the arena and that's why Angel, Riley, and Datu see him on their way there. Though I think it's most likely that Skittles escaped the initial zombie raid on Tower #2 and has been living in the streets since then. It may have been that he just accidentally wandered too close to the arena and realized who/what lived there.

I just think the idea that Skittles came from the mental hospital seems born too much from imagination, kind of like the notion that Saul would disable the cars when he fled LAX :P

As opposed to all of the hard facts that you've based your theory on? There is far too little known about Skittles to say definitively what his origin is.

[Adventureless_Hero]

I was talking to friend at work last night who also listens to the show, and we got on the subject of the arrow ink caught out of the air...the thing of interest about this as he was saying isn't the fact that he caught it, but that he managed to stop it. That type of thing would take tremendous hand strength and muscle dexterity..i mean think about it. Its a smooth shaft sliding though your hand...and he (as far as we know) Stopped it before it hit his body...no muscle decomposition there ...

Also...i haven't heard anybody address this fact. But what's up with the other room they looked In? " bloody bed, countless needles, and broken glass..more tattoos? Injections ? Making multiple inks?...hmm

Dude, I totally addressed the other room just 1 page back. I think they were making various creatures there, including behemoths. Didn't they mention the door frame was all jacked up, like something large had gone through?

[Osiris]

I was talking to friend at work last night who also listens to the show, and we got on the subject of the arrow ink caught out of the air...the thing of interest about this as he was saying isn't the fact that he caught it, but that he managed to stop it. That type of thing would take tremendous hand strength and muscle dexterity..i mean think about it. Its a smooth shaft sliding though your hand...and he (as far as we know) Stopped it before it hit his body...no muscle decomposition there ...

Also...i haven't heard anybody address this fact. But what's up with the other room they looked In? " bloody bed, countless needles, and broken glass..more tattoos? Injections ? Making multiple inks?...hmm

Something to consider. It is entirely possible that Ink isn't dead at all. Though I must admit I've been far too focused on the Mallers to pay much attention to the other major threat to the Residents. Assuming of course that Ink is the man in the pinstriped suit. After all, that fucker took two in the chest, jumped up and buggered in Chapter 11.1 (09:28). I think it is relatively safe to assume that the individual in the suit is quite dead. If not... there's a whole new kettle of fish to explore.

[7oddisdead]

@hero
Reading>me bro..my bad. I don't like the building a better monster idea...but its fully possible
@osiris
Perhaps he isn't...maybe the zoms were the experiment, and he "got it right" on himself...hmm

[Osiris]

@hero
Reading>me bro..my bad. I don't like the building a better monster idea...but its fully possible
@osiris
Perhaps he isn't...maybe the zoms were the experiment, and he "got it right" on himself...hmm

I don't think he's the one behind all of this. Something doesn't sit well with the timing, let alone how he could have pulled it off. He's an opportunistic creature of chaos and undoubtedly a willing participant in the armageddon... as for pioneering any of the creatures... too hard to say. I'm inclined to think 'No' but I have been wrong before.

[diosa]

I like to think pinstripe wears the snazzy suit because he dressed up for his court date, or am I way behind and that has already been assumed. Perhaps skittles at the mental hospital is a bit too convenient, but he obviously is supposed to be in one. It's not hard to place him at the super secret hidden asylum at the hospital. I totally think the bed surrounded by needles had something to do with zombie making, but who knows, maybe ink is a junkie and viscera is his dragon...Sorry, been reading Crossed...

[7oddisdead]

I don't think he's the one behind all of this. Something doesn't sit well with the timing, let alone how he could have pulled it off. He's an opportunistic creature of chaos and undoubtedly a willing participant in the armageddon... as for pioneering any of the creatures... too hard to say. I'm inclined to think 'No' but I have been wrong before.

I have too many damn theories about him floating around. Here's what I'm kind getting at...entirely made-up speculation but,

What if he is just a cunning opportunist, going out and capturing a few zoms, then kidnapping a few survivors and "experimenting" finding different combinations of "virus" and drugs to create the things we have been seeing...work in progress, but the direction I'm thinking in..

[Osiris]

I like to think pinstripe wears the snazzy suit because he dressed up for his court date, or am I way behind and that has already been assumed. Perhaps skittles at the mental hospital is a bit too convenient, but he obviously is supposed to be in one. It's not hard to place him at the super secret hidden asylum at the hospital. I totally think the bed surrounded by needles had something to do with zombie making, but who knows, maybe ink is a junkie and viscera is his dragon...Sorry, been reading Crossed...

The one with the suit stole it from Paul, a former Resident of the Tower until he was killed in Chapter 11. But I like how you think!


I have too many damn theories about him floating around. Here's what I'm kind getting at...entirely made-up speculation but,

What if he is just a cunning opportunist, going out and capturing a few zoms, then kidnapping a few survivors and "experimenting" finding different combinations of "virus" and drugs to create the things we have been seeing...work in progress, but the direction I'm thinking in..

Where'd he get the virus from? Of course, this is speculative and there is no proof whatsoever that there is a virus.

[7oddisdead]

Bad wording on my part....virus=zombie blood/fluids...;)

[nikvoodoo]

So, please pardon me if this was mentioned, but I didn't remember seeing this brought up before. Anyone else catch that the mental institution Riley and Kalani were in wasn't located on the map? Anyone else think that's bizarre?

[Osiris]

So, please pardon me if this was mentioned, but I didn't remember seeing this brought before. Anyone else catch that the mental institution Riley and Kalani were in wasn't located on the map? Anyone else think that's bizarre?

Which brings us right back to Ground Zero. There is something far, far greater than Ink, The One With The Markings or Saul's Mom behind all of this. There is something decidedly government about all of this, which leads me to push the weights toward the 'military weaponized virus' end of the scales as a cause.