Chapter 22- "Our Doubts Are Traitors" part 2

[nikvoodoo]

And now in the words of my uncle I say unto you: allez zombie!!!

[cupcakezombie]

Yay! Go download go

[cupcakezombie]

That was awesome! Won't say too much cause it seems like I am VERY early getting started on this. :)

[AdrianHD]

Good episode! I'll let it simmer though. We're about 4 or 5 hours too early. =P

[Teleportingtaco]

Awesome episode disproved allot of theories and made some stronger.

[kafu288]

Awesome episode. They did pretty much what I was starting to think they would (get someone to take the fall to smoke out the real shooter) and I guess we got an answer on the chopper, surely they can work out which one it is now and we know who will be the other pilot.

[Rafar]

So waht is special about LA? I'm guessing the "Secret Zombie Lab" theory is getting stronger.

[nikvoodoo]

Isn't it always nice to hear when a show finally aligns itself to things you've been saying for months? (Like who the extra pilot will be, and things of that nature?). Tanya gets multiple awards this episode because she's the one who's setting us up long term for things that are going to happen once things get settled down. Tanya also gets the quote of the episode: "You're asking me? Its your building!"

[Creem_Filling]

Ya! That's my girl. Pegs is my favourite character, and I like to see that she is getting some special recognition! She's going to fly everyone after Kalani gets his fat ass killed, you just wait and see.

[kafu288]

Hell I'm just glad Mikey and not leader alligned with what I was thinking they would do with regards to catching the shooter after I listened to WND. Nice to see that the storyline is still progressing around the shooter storyline. Not that I thought it wouldn't but we've all seen shows get bogged down around plot twists.

Also afte this episode I am now on the side of the shooter is the rat. It wouldn't have been so completely one-sided in favour of shooter=rat (Mikey and not leader's discussion) if that wasn't the case.

[Creem_Filling]

Okay. I don't know what I think about the shooter and the rat problem anymore. Before I didn't think the shooter was the rat, because I thought he/she was too much of a pansey to shoot anyone. But now I'm not so sure, based on Michael and Angel's discussion. I'm still leaning towards the rat is too scared to be the shooter, because he/she went all stealthy about the whole situation. But I'm on the fence now, so I guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens next.

And is anyone else kinda getting mad that nothing is being said about Lizzy? Maybe she'll arrive at the tower later with Brick and Samantha (a theory I had (http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?1730-Do-you-think-their-is-any-hope-for-Samantha)) and tell her story of how she escaped. But it's seriously driving me coconuts not knowing if she's okay.

[Dameon1213]

Okay so right off the bat. I see that Steven wasn't even mentioned. A part of me says that anyone with a grudge against pippin should be questioned, including Kelly And angel, now michel angel and Tanya were in the same place and we know where they were, we also can theorize that it can't be reily or pegs, reilly because of the smell that hope would have picked up on, and pegs because she never had a problem with pippin and probably couldn't bear to kill another person even if it was to protect the tower. Now Luis may be a person of intrest because he smelled of gas, now I don't know about you but when I fill up my lawn mower I don't smell like gas. However I doubt that he killed pippin and ran up stairs to pour gas on his hands and "fill the generator" but this is the first tme we have heard abou him. I still think it is Steven simply for his jack ass move of wanting to kick Lizzie out, sorry every person counts in these situations but Steven doesn't see things like that. He would rather sit in his room and not do shit. Kalani is a valid option because we know nothing about him, but I doubt he is the rat at all because of his not being at the tower for the war and we have no clue how long he was at the rink so slim to no chance on kalani. Datu is...no. I think whoever did it was looming out for the tower and not for himself but I do think it was the rat who did it.
I did find this episode to be more then exceptional as always. However I don't see why no one will get in the helicopter pegs, I think she could do it, and do it well.

[Mikeyd2tall]

im liking that they didnt kill hope. shes definitly gonna have SOME use in the future. as for the case of pegs being the pilot i had no clue why everyone cared so much.

[Creem_Filling]

im liking that they didnt kill hope. shes definitly gonna have SOME use in the future. as for the case of pegs being the pilot i had no clue why everyone cared so much.

I didn't know why they were making such a big deal either. Perhaps if we were still in the beginning and she was still a weak character, I would understand their concern. But I think she has done plenty to prove herself. Not only has she fought bravely, but she has shown herself to be pretty clever. I think she is completely capable of flying the chopper, with Kalani's training, of course.

[Mikeyd2tall]

Definitly! and i think leedo and everyone else are gonna have a cow when they find out what type the helicopter was XD

[ZombieMama]

It was a great episode. Nice to see the theories discussed by the characters themselves. I just wish it had gone longer! It seemed like it finished before I even noticed!

[Michael Farris]

No offense KC, but having the fall guy being some random dude we never heard of felt like a bit of a cop-out. I still liked the episode as a whole though.

[Dameon1213]

Yeah it does seem that KC is starting to short us in time but I like what he is doing

[Creem_Filling]

Now now people! KC hasn't failed us yet, don't say he is shorting us for having a fall guy. As Angel said, if they didn't have anyone they would have a "red scare" on their hands in the tower. And if you know what the red scare was, then you know that it would just be messy for the tower. Whether everything works out in the end or not, it is still going to be a good story, but KC knows the direction he is going, so I'm sure this is just a stepping stone that WILL work out in the end.

[Dameon1213]

I was just saying the episode is to short :3 I like the "hey kid wanna help us out" way he has it I like that we are getting more characters

[Michael Farris]

Now now people! KC hasn't failed us yet, don't say he is shorting us for having a fall guy. As Angel said, if they didn't have anyone they would have a "red scare" on their hands in the tower. And if you know what the red scare was, then you know that it would just be messy for the tower. Whether everything works out in the end or not, it is still going to be a good story, but KC knows the direction he is going, so I'm sure this is just a stepping stone that WILL work out in the end.

My problem wasn't the concept of a fall guy, but it being a nobody.

[Dameon1213]

Mikey: it's just a fall guy, they need a guy who they really don't know, A: just in case he is the one they have him on one place, B: it still leaves everyone we know as a suspect, C: the killer comes back to the scene o the crime, Luis is truthfully just bait.

[nikvoodoo]

Having Lewis (correct spelling per the wiki) be the fall guy is a good omen for those who desire big bang for their buck in the revealing of the rat. By having a patsy be a nobody, it opens up more possibilities that the rat is one of our main characters and not Steven...who is a nobody himself.

[Dameon1213]

I like voodoo's theory but I still feel Steven, and Kelly is the rat but I don't feel she is......disregard she could easily be involved with the prisoners, she was a psychologist but she could also be a great lair but what was Tommy if she is the rat. That part of the equation doesn't add up.

[Jeebogs]

Having Lewis (correct spelling per the wiki) be the fall guy is a good omen for those who desire big bang for their buck in the revealing of the rat. By having a patsy be a nobody, it opens up more possibilities that the rat is one of our main characters and not Steven...who is a nobody himself.


I think old Stevie is still a contender, purely because he wasn't even mentioned in this episode. He's not so much of a nobody as this Lewis guy, he certainly has form.

I'm going to have a good listen again later. But for now, I can't see why Burt is so against Pegs being the second pilot.

[ZombieMama]

To tell you the truth though, with this episode, the idea that Kelly might be the traitor seems stronger than ever. She would be sneaky enough to trip the alarm and kill him and not hope. Also she does seem like the kind of person with enough balls to do it. Now more than ever. AND she was the only one with a motive before to actually leave the tower. However, her with the Mallers? kinda iffy since they probably wouldn't like her too much, who knows how many of them where in prison thanks to her?

[Dameon1213]

Jeebogs: Burt is against it because she is a easily scared little girl that doesn't work well under preassure, she while yea is smart, is not exactly pilot material.

[Dameon1213]

Mama: you are right but in part 1, pippin says "it's you!" in a shocked manner, number 1 if in fact Kelly killed him why would he say it like that I would have said "oh it's just you" followed by a sigh of relief, so I think it is not impossible to place her there, but then again angel is a viable option too, he knows the wires just like everybody else, also he got very loud more then he should have, freaking out more then Michel and hope, like has was trying to rule himself out.

[nikvoodoo]

Let me rephrase Steven: he's a more significant nobody than the other nobodies...if that makes any sense.

My view of Steven has always been that of a plot device. He's the one who initiated the argument that forced Lizzy into her predicament and his refusal put a man of action in Angel in the guard room. I understand how that looks like he's guilty, but I really think he's just a way to get the story to move along for our main players.

[Jeebogs]

Jeebogs: Burt is against it because she is a easily scared little girl that doesn't work well under preassure, she while yea is smart, is not exactly pilot material.

Mmmmm, interesting, are you pointing out a future plot point? Pegs flying the second chopper and gets all flustered, possibly crashing?

I think she's come a long way since the start and needs the benefit of the doubt. All that she's been through with Michael in the colony (and the journey there) proved she's tougher than originally thought.

Surely Kalani is still in the frame for this, he walks out of the door from Michael and Tanya, then, say, enough time to walk down to the guard room goes by and then we hear the alarm. Pop a cap in Pippen's ass, then off with Datu.

[Carl R-tistik Springer]

listened to the Episode but im a bit confused is it Reily or Peggs that is scared of heights?

[Dameon1213]

Kalani is still a valid player but his chances of being the rat are slim to none, I doubt that he was ever with the mallers, I think that the rat has to have come in when the sign was up, because that is when they stopped letting people in.

[Dameon1213]

I think it is pegs who is scared......I get it now!

[HardKor]

I still think Riley is a possibility for the rat. She seemed off in this episode, even more so that in the last couple. Her panic reaction felt like an overreaction to me. Like she was trying to sell everyone on the idea that she was as surprised by the shooting as everyone else. And I know Hope didn't smell the booze, but Michael and Angel did leave a little room for her to still be the shooter when they were trying to settle on a patsy.

Also, I'm glad Hope made it. I was sure she was a goner.

[Dameon1213]

People don't quit smoking and change their lives if a person they don't care about. It can't be her she is a lesbian not a traitor

[HardKor]

People don't quit smoking and change their lives if a person they don't care about. It can't be her she is a lesbian not a traitor

The two aren't mutually exclusive. I still subscribe to the "Mallers have a hostage" theory. And if that's the case anyone could have a motive to be the traitor.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

First off, great episode. I guess the identity of the rat is yet to be revealed, but at least we can remove Michael, Angel, Tanya, Datu, Kalani, Burt, Saul, Pippin and Hope from the list of would be assassins. However, Victor, Riley, Kelly and Lewis (who probably isn't involved) are now on the hot seat in terms of who could be the possible (former) rat/assassin.

I'm glad that it had been established in the episode that the traitor could now be loyal to the tower (as said by Michael), although whether or not they could be trusted is another matter and if their plan is to create chaos and distrust within the Tower to make it easier to attack (as said by Angel).

Oh and 2 points to myself and some other members for predicting that...

1. The radio was shot (which was why Burt and Saul weren't able to contact them at the end of Chapter 22 (Part 1 of 3)
2. The helicopter was a S-61R/CH-3C/EHH-3E (a.k.a Jolly Green Giant)

On another note, I'm beginning to suspect that if the rat/assassin is in fact now loyal to the tower but used to be the traitor, I suspect that Kelly might be rat at this point. But who knows...aside from KC

[Kc]

listened to the Episode but im a bit confused is it Reily or Peggs that is scared of heights?
Riley is the one scared of heights. And most of the tower was not there to witness Pegs getting stronger in her mission to the colony. Therefore mistrust still ensues.

[Zombiehead]

Well I'm confused as hell about who the rat/shooter/traitor is but this episode does help us rule out a few people at least in some of the incidents. Pegs and Kalani being pilots in their travel plans is no real shocker. We knew it was going to eventually come to that since before the War in Season 1. I don't like the idea of Michael cooking up a lie to get everyone to relax. Marcus did the same thing and that didn't work out so well for him. I don't feel that the incident was worth cooking up a grand scheme since so many more things can go wrong. If it all comes to light people may lose trust in Michael and/or Angel.

[Gefroan]

First off, great episode. I guess the identity of the rat is yet to be revealed, but at least we can remove Michael, Angel, Tanya, Datu, Kalani, Burt, Saul, Pippin and Hope from the list of would be assassins. However, Victor, Riley, Kelly and Lewis (who probably isn't involved) are now on the hot seat in terms of who could be the possible (former) rat/assassin.

I'm glad that it had been established in the episode that the traitor could now be loyal to the tower (as said by Michael), although whether or not they could be trusted is another matter and if their plan is to create chaos and distrust within the Tower to make it easier to attack (as said by Angel).

Oh and 2 points to myself and some other members for predicting that...

1. The radio was shot (which was why Burt and Saul weren't able to contact them at the end of Chapter 22 (Part 1 of 3)
2. The helicopter was a S-61R/CH-3C/EHH-3E (a.k.a Jolly Green Giant)

On another note, I'm beginning to suspect that if the rat/assassin is in fact now loyal to the tower but used to be the traitor, I suspect that Kelly might be rat at this point. But who knows...aside from KC

kelly is not the rat riley is not the rat so victor and lewis well i dont think these four are the rat just saying its going to be the dark horse who is reveiled plus these people wouldnt murder another person no matter what it would be a huge hole in the veiwers perpective on the charchters

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

kelly is not the rat riley is not the rat so victor and lewis well i dont think these four are the rat just saying its going to be the dark horse who is reveiled plus these people wouldnt murder another person no matter what it would be a huge hole in the veiwers perpective on the charchters

You are entitled to your opinion, but as everyone who posts on this forum eventually learns, opinions can be wrong, especially with KC at the helm. =P Trust me, I've been wrong about a couple of things already, but I have gotten some stuff right.

Also, do have definitive proof that it wasn't Kelly?

[ilanagl]

yay Riley's not guily!

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

yay Riley's not guily!

Yep, sounds like she might be clear since Hope didn't smell any alcohol. Although, even though I haven't had a gun pointed at me (thank god =P), Hope might have been under a lot of stress which could have caused her senses to shut down or for her to get confused/ignore certain things. I mean people have gone temporarily blind because of stressful situations (a la Band of Brothers - Blithe), which could also have been the cause of Hope's blindness...or it could have been the glass window and the couple stories she feel down from...OH WELL!

[Ra1th]

Isn't it always nice to hear when a show finally aligns itself to things you've been saying for months? (Like who the extra pilot will be, and things of that nature?). Tanya gets multiple awards this episode because she's the one who's setting us up long term for things that are going to happen once things get settled down. Tanya also gets the quote of the episode: "You're asking me? Its your building!"

actually i hated it. I knew who the pilot would be from the start, but it woulda been nice if it came as a surprise

[HardKor]

Yep, sounds like she might be clear since Hope didn't smell any alcohol. Although, even though I haven't had a gun pointed at me (thank god =P), Hope might have been under a lot of stress which could have caused her senses to shut down or for her to get confused/ignore certain things. I mean people have gone temporarily blind because of stressful situations (a la Band of Brothers - Blithe), which could also have been the cause of Hope's blindness...or it could have been the glass window and the couple stories she feel down from...OH WELL!

I'm also wondering if Riley didn't splash herself with a little booze after the shooting to throw suspicion off herself. As much as I don't want Riley to be the traitor, the evidence does seem to be mounting:
(1) She met Michael and Angel in the stairway, and could have been fleeing the scene.
(2) Of all the suspects without alibis, she had the best opportunity to steal the silenced pistol (during the Lizzie rescue mission)
(3) Unlike Victor, who I seriously doubt is the shooter, she's been there the whole time so could have been the original rat.

Kelly is still a possibility, and my original choice for the rat, but Riley is moving up my suspect list quickly.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

I'm also wondering if Riley didn't splash herself with a little booze after the shooting to throw suspicion off herself. As much as I don't want Riley to be the traitor, the evidence does seem to be mounting:
(1) She met Michael and Angel in the stairway, and could have been fleeing the scene.
(2) Of all the suspects without alibis, she had the best opportunity to steal the silenced pistol (during the Lizzie rescue mission)
(3) Unlike Victor, who I seriously doubt is the shooter, she's been there the whole time so could have been the original rat.

Kelly is still a possibility, and my original choice for the rat. But Riley is moving up my suspect list quickly.

Good catch with the alcohol splashing HardKor. I still doubt that Riley would be the traitor, unless she has some hidden past that hasn't been revealed yet (being in prison, getting hired as a chef after getting out since prisoners do get training in that field). I'm with you that Kelly is probably the traitor or I should say former traitor at this point since losing Tommy might have made her do a 180.

[Dameon1213]

I am liking the thought of shooter but not traitor(Reilly)

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

I am liking the thought of shooter but not traitor(Reilly)

True, Kelly could have been the traitor but Riley could have been the shooter. The rat and the assassin don't have to be the same person.

[Michael Farris]

Good catch with the alcohol splashing HardKor. I still doubt that Riley would be the traitor, unless she has some hidden past that hasn't been revealed yet (being in prison, getting hired as a chef after getting out since prisoners do get training in that field). I'm with you that Kelly is probably the traitor or I should say former traitor at this point since losing Tommy might have made her do a 180.

Although I have no evidence to prove this, but I think that Riley and Scratch have/had a relationship.

[Dameon1213]

I have imagined scratch and I can't help but think that would be hot, but I doubt highly.

[nikvoodoo]

actually i hated it. I knew who the pilot would be from the start, but it woulda been nice if it came as a surprise

You just disagree because it's like rule #10 of the forum that you and I aren't allowed to agree on anything. :p

I'm ok with this being a known quantity vs. The rat. If we all knew for a fact who the rat was and we were just waiting for the tower to figure it out it could be a really painful thing to listen through. If it was obvious who the rat was and Kc was still trying to keep it a secret it would become annoying. That's obviously not the case, nor do I think Kc would have painted himself into that corner because he's a ridiculously talented storyteller.

This is minor enough that I'm ok having figured it out since "over the airwaves."

[Dameon1213]

I love you voodoo XD

[Th3_T3ch]

Killing hope would have served no purpose, so there is that. The Rat could be Kelly, but thats not likely because Pippin and her were chatting it up for six hours. Kalani, thank Kc, is still a small possibility for rat-atude; he could have cut the wire, killed Pippin then gone down to the truck with Datu, but as I said not likely. Victor should have been ruled out simply because of his cologne problem. Lewis could be the rat. Oh, and for all those who say we know nothing about Kalani: we do, he is a pilot from Hawaii that has killed TWO behemoths and was at the other tower. I use to not believe his story too, but this episode has shown that he knows his stuff.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

Killing hope would have served no purpose, so there is that. The Rat could be Kelly, but thats not likely because Pippin and her were chatting it up for six hours. Kalani, thank Kc, is still a small possibility for rat-atude; he could have cut the wire, killed Pippin then gone down to the truck with Datu, but as I said not likely. Victor should have been ruled out simply because of his cologne problem. Lewis could be the rat. Oh, and for all those who say we know nothing about Kalani: we do, he is a pilot from Hawaii that has killed TWO behemoths and was at the other tower. I use to not believe his story too, but this episode has shown that he knows his stuff.

6:20 - 6:26/21:19 [Angel] - "Datu says he and Kalani were together the whole time they left before anything happened."

That might cut out any possibility of Kalani being the assassin (but as you said before, it's probably not him.)

I find it odd that after being questioned about smelling alcohol that Hope didn't mention anything about smelling cologne which means that she either didn't smell cologne or she can't remember because of the stressful situation. Drugging Hope however doesn't seem like the best idea at this time though since she is now a sitting duck and the assassin still has the silenced pistol.

Also the Steven theory seems to be falling through (at least being the assassin) since he wasn't mentioned at all and everyone else who wasn't mentioned had alibis.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

Listening to episode again, they now have digital copies of their journals or at least that's their intention. I don't think they should throw them away, who knows if those files might become corrupt or if they can't find a computer or power for that matter. Having both hard copies and digital copies would be the best bet to document their story/progress.

However, since they do have digital copies, maybe Michael survived and is writing a book about their story in a post-"zombie" world entitled "We're Alive". Just an idea XD.

5:23 - 5:26/21:19 [Michael] - "She couldn't have seen who did it!"

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050522225046/uncyclopedia/images/archive/7/73/20070425070816!Roflcopter.gif

5:44/21:19 Kelly comes into the conversation right?

[Ra1th]

Are they just keeping the journals on hard drives?they aren't very stable

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

Are they just keeping the journals on hard drives?they aren't very stable

Maybe. Any digital copy, even flash drives can be corrupt from time to time so if I were them I wouldn't put my eggs in one basket. I'd keep the hard copies.

[Th3_T3ch]

6:20 - 6:26/21:19 [Angel] - "Datu says he and Kalani were together the whole time they left before anything happened."

Kalani was talking to Michael a short time before the alarm went off, he also had to have passed by the guard room (or at least the floor it was on) before leaving. He didn't have to run far for this to work, but this episode has shown that Kalani does know his helicopters.

[AdrianHD]

You are entitled to your opinion, but as everyone who posts on this forum eventually learns, opinions can be wrong, especially with KC at the helm. =P Trust me, I've been wrong about a couple of things already, but I have gotten some stuff right.

Also, do have definitive proof that it wasn't Kelly?

I went back and re-listened. I thought it was Kelly the first time around, not so much this time. She has an alibi during the party. Considering she was the one that wanted to party, she was having a good time flirting on every guy, and she's the one who started to throw furniture at the Mallers, I don't see her as the rat.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

Kalani was talking to Michael a short time before the alarm went off, he also had to have passed by the guard room (or at least the floor it was on) before leaving. He didn't have to run far for this to work, but this episode has shown that Kalani does know his helicopters.

2:11-3:56/21:19 (Time from which Kalani leaves the room to when the Alarm sounds [1 minute, 45 seconds])

Hmm, I have my doubts about Kalani being fast enough to do this, remember he is Chubs McGee (he's fat). Also Datu doesn't seem the type to lie about Kalani being with him the whole time before the alarm sounded. I don't see a motive for either two to assassinate Pippin or to be the rat as it is in their best interest to keep the tower safe.


I went back and re-listened. I thought it was Kelly the first time around, not so much this time. She has an alibi during the party. Considering she was the one that wanted to party, she was having a good time flirting on every guy, and she's the one who started to throw furniture at the Mallers, I don't see her as the rat.

True. But it still doesn't prove she isn't the rat/former rat. Still could be someone else, but we'll have to wait to see who it is.

[Ra1th]

I went back and re-listened. I thought it was Kelly the first time around, not so much this time. She has an alibi during the party. Considering she was the one that wanted to party, she was having a good time flirting on every guy, and she's the one who started to throw furniture at the Mallers, I don't see her as the rat.

She could have had a change of heart like michael says

[AdrianHD]

She could have had a change of heart like michael says
What I'm going off from the earlier episode is that if she is the rat, she talked to them early -- BUT, I don't get why she'd call the Mallers while she was all for a day off and party.

I'm pretty confident the rat is Riley. There's a LOT of evidence towards this.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

What I'm going off from the earlier episode is that if she is the rat, she talked to them early -- BUT, I don't get why she'd call the Mallers while she was all for a day off and party.

I'm pretty confident the rat is Riley. There's a LOT of evidence towards this.

Sounds interesting! Care to lay it on us? =D

[wh33t]

I've never cared personally for the Riley as the rat theory, but here is something I just thought of. If she is the rat, perhaps her and Scratch have some kind of romantic history together?

Also, can anyone recall if Pippen has ever seen Riley before? Pippen clearly recognized his shooter, if he has had a pleasant encounter with Riley before I think that dumps the Riley as the shooter theory into the waste bin.

Also, I just want to toss something out there to the community. If the shooter is loyal to the tower why would they have shot the radio as well?

[AdrianHD]

Sounds interesting! Care to lay it on us? =D

I was going to hold a few of the points since I was supposed to be on WND, but Britt hasn't gotten back to me yet. S'all good saying my points though.

-She was rejected from Lizzy just before the Tower had their meeting with Scratch and Latch. She was also tipsy/drunk while they were talking. I feel like this could've given her a sense of betrayal.
-She has her shop stolen from during the tattoo'd zombie invasion. I think this fueled more distrust.
-She didn't say a thing during the vote for a day off.
-Angel has to go and "find" her during the party. She only appeared pre-party to set up.
-While Angel picked Riley to help get the water from the firetruck, he brings up "trust." This is peculiar since minutes before, Bill was thought to be the rat by the group. Seems like a foreshadowing to Riley being the rat.

[HardKor]

I've never cared personally for the Riley as the rat theory, but here is something I just thought of. If she is the rat, perhaps her and Scratch have some kind of romantic history together?

Also, can anyone recall if Pippen has ever seen Riley before? Pippen clearly recognized his shooter, if he has had a pleasant encounter with Riley before I think that dumps the Riley as the shooter theory into the waste bin.

Also, I just want to toss something out there to the community. If the shooter is loyal to the tower why would they have shot the radio as well?

Riley's been "drunk" on the roof since coming back from the attempt to rescue Lizzie, or at least she's implied to have been. So I doubt she had any interaction with Pippin.

As for shooting the radio, red herring maybe? Riley was fairly insistent about there being another radio. So if the shooter is loyal to the Tower and knew there was another radio, then shooting the radio looks suspicious but doesn't do much real harm to the Tower.

[Hellbringer]

Definitly! and i think leedo and everyone else are gonna have a cow when they find out what type the helicopter was XD

yes... a huge Jersey Cow for me! I called Jolly Green Giant... I'm going geeky and saying "w00t!"

[cupcakezombie]

2:11-3:56/21:19 (Time from which Kalani leaves the room to when the Alarm sounds [1 minute, 45 seconds])

Hmm, I have my doubts about Kalani being fast enough to do this, remember he is Chubs McGee (he's fat). Also Datu doesn't seem the type to lie about Kalani being with him the whole time before the alarm sounded. I don't see a motive for either two to assassinate Pippin or to be the rat as it is in their best interest to keep the tower safe.


But depending on when Datu got the message he might not have remembered what they were doing at that exact time. If he was in the garage then he probably didn't even hear the alarm. Also, I don't even think Kalani would have had time to get down 5 flights of stairs in 1 minute and 45 secs, let alone both of them having got in the car and left the building. (If the time line ends up being solid, ie not other time elapsed from when Kalani left Michael and Tanya to the alarm going off)


Kalani is a valid option because we know nothing about him, but I doubt he is the rat at all because of his not being at the tower for the war and we have no clue how long he was at the rink so slim to no chance on kalani.

Also Kalani was at the tower for the war, he was picked up from the Arena in Chapter 10.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

But depending on when Datu got the message he might not have remembered what they were doing at that exact time. If he was in the garage then he probably didn't even hear the alarm. Also, I don't even think Kalani would have had time to get down 5 flights of stairs in 1 minute and 45 secs, let alone both of them having got in the car and left the building. (If the time line ends up being solid, ie not other time elapsed from when Kalani left Michael and Tanya to the alarm going off).

So...are you saying he did or didn't do it?

[wh33t]

Riley's been "drunk" on the roof since coming back from the attempt to rescue Lizzie, or at least she's implied to have been. So I doubt she had any interaction with Pippin.

As for shooting the radio, red herring maybe? Riley was fairly insistent about there being another radio. So if the shooter is loyal to the Tower and knew there was another radio, then shooting the radio looks suspicious but doesn't do much real harm to the Tower.

You'll have to explain what the term "red herring" means. Is that some kind of fabled fish?

I don't get the purpose of shooting the radio if you are loyal to the tower though. Even if there is another one what is the point of shooting it? It's not like Hope was gonna jump on the radio and tell Saul or Burt that some mysterious figure just shot Pippen?

Or would she? I don't think so. She can barely speak after the event happened to Michael, let alone push buttons on a radio.

Can anyone recall if Scratch and Riley have ever had an encounter? Was Riley a prominent fighter in that great battle that took place between the Tower and the Mallers?

[AdrianHD]

Can anyone recall if Scratch and Riley have ever had an encounter? Was Riley a prominent fighter in that great battle that took place between the Tower and the Mallers?

She wasn't. She was upstairs mainly looking after Datu. If anything, Kelly was a bigger fighter in the War than Riley.

[cupcakezombie]

So...are you saying he did or didn't do it?
I am saying that with how the timeline is currently, we shouldn't write Kalani off completely, 1 minute 45 is not enough for them to have left the tower. I think Datu hasn't intentionally lied, but he might not have got told the correct time, and if Kalani was there then he could have coached Datu on the times.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

She wasn't. She was upstairs mainly looking after Datu. If anything, Kelly was a bigger fighter in the War than Riley.

I think you have them flip-flopped. I forget, I'll check back after listening to the episodes again, but Riley was a big player in putting out the fire which required her to fight.

[AdrianHD]

I think you have them flip-flopped. I forget, I'll check back after listening to the episodes again, but Riley was a big player in putting out the fire which required her to fight.

Nope. I just got done listening to the War last night. Riley herded the extra Tower members upstairs and kept an eye on Datu. I'm sure she'd be a big player on stopping the fire, I mean, why wouldn't she be? If you were a rat and you DENIED helping at that point, you'd be caught. Not to mention, we know the rat has somewhat good intentions. Otherwise Hope would be dead.

[Paola]

Great episode!!! Glad Hope isn't dead. And I don't like the fact that pippin is dead, too soon. On the rat/shooter situation...I'm sooo confused!!!!! I don't think it's Riley or Kelly though. Definitely not Angel either. I particularly liked the conversation between Micheal and Tanya. Because I also find it strange that zombies are rarely making an appearance in the previous episodes. Hmmmm I wonder why??? Hopefully we'll know soon. The fact that there are many different types of zombies especially in different parts of Cali makes me wonder where on Earth they came from?? The labs?? Failed experiment??? O man I really want to know!!!! Pegs being the other pilot...I had a feeling, but I don't see why Kalani and Burt and maybe Saul (can't remember) are making such a big deal about it. Sure the weren't with her when she went to the colony but still they're acting as if though she were stupid and not capable.

[nikvoodoo]

You'll have to explain what the term "red herring" means. Is that some kind of fabled fish?


Red Herring is an idiom. It is the term used to describe a diversion or tactic to throw peoples attention away from the larger issue. For instance, the radio could be a red herring to throw the Tower off the significance of Pippin's murder. Not saying that it is, just saying its a possibility.

If this was a joke and I misunderstood it as a serious question: uh......I'll just go ahead and delete this message later.

[Th3_T3ch]

But depending on when Datu got the message he might not have remembered what they were doing at that exact time. If he was in the garage then he probably didn't even hear the alarm. Also, I don't even think Kalani would have had time to get down 5 flights of stairs in 1 minute and 45 secs, let alone both of them having got in the car and left the building. (If the time line ends up being solid, ie not other time elapsed from when Kalani left Michael and Tanya to the alarm going off)



Also Kalani was at the tower for the war, he was picked up from the Arena in Chapter 10.

Thank you Cupcake. and 1 min 45 seconds is plenty of time to cut a wire and shoot pippin. Also everybody was busy on the fifth floor and not trying to round everybody up until a while later that gives Kalani and Datu plenty of time to leave.

[AdrianHD]

Thank you Cupcake. and 1 min 45 seconds is plenty of time to cut a wire and shoot pippin. Also everybody was busy on the fifth floor and not trying to round everybody up until a while later that gives Kalani and Datu plenty of time to leave.

Devil's advocate... the way the steps sounded, I don't think Kalani can run that fast or sound that light with his steps.

[cupcakezombie]

Devil's advocate... the way the steps sounded, I don't think Kalani can run that fast or sound that light with his steps.
I have heard some big people who are incrddible light on their feet, plus he is probaby losing weight and getting fitter cause he is eating less and doing more.
I am not saying it is Kalani, just that we shouldn't write him off

[wh33t]

Red Herring is an idiom. It is the term used to describe a diversion or tactic to throw peoples attention away from the larger issue. For instance, the radio could be a red herring to throw the Tower off the significance of Pippin's murder. Not saying that it is, just saying its a possibility.

If this was a joke and I misunderstood it as a serious question: uh......I'll just go ahead and delete this message later.

No, joke lol. I honestly didn't know what that meant. Thanks for clearing that up. That does make sense. The evidence against Riley is surely mounting.

[cupcakezombie]

Just realised that the armory and guard room are not on the same floor. Both Angel and Michael had to go up or down stairs to get there.
Where do we think it is now then?

[wh33t]

Just realised that the armory and guard room are not on the same floor. Both Angel and Michael had to go up or down stairs to get there.
Where do we think it is now then?

Isn't the Armory also the same as Burts room? That's upstairs somewhere.

[smalls kenobi]

I'm Glad this episode made my theory about Kelly being the (former)Rat/Shooter much more stronger! :)

i hop that i'm right :P

[Pandora]

Okay. I don't know what I think about the shooter and the rat problem anymore. Before I didn't think the shooter was the rat, because I thought he/she was too much of a pansey to shoot anyone. But now I'm not so sure, based on Michael and Angel's discussion. I'm still leaning towards the rat is too scared to be the shooter, because he/she went all stealthy about the whole situation. But I'm on the fence now, so I guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens next.

And is anyone else kinda getting mad that nothing is being said about Lizzy? Maybe she'll arrive at the tower later with Brick and Samantha (a theory I had (http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?1730-Do-you-think-their-is-any-hope-for-Samantha)) and tell her story of how she escaped. But it's seriously driving me coconuts not knowing if she's okay.

Yea I hope Lizzy is okay! I keep thinking Samantha will turn up too...but all messed up from 'breeding purposes'...Brick is kick ass. I think he would be cool to have around the Tower. I sure hope Kalani doesnt die! He is cool!

[Pandora]

I thot Bill was the rat. Is the rat still around? I thot the rat was over and done. What am I missing?

[AdrianHD]

I thot Bill was the rat. Is the rat still around? I thot the rat was over and done. What am I missing?

They thought Bill was the rat because he stole the weapons and food. The rat wasn't him though.

[Pandora]

listen to Purgatory Chapter...they are reproducing...I kinda think they are using the captured women. Not really sure on that but I am pretty sure they are reproducing...You can hear what sounds like someone in labor.

[Pandora]

Why was Bill encouraging everybody to get drunk then? Why did he take ammo that he himself couldnt even use? When he died he said 'sorry'

[AdrianHD]

Why was Bill encouraging everybody to get drunk then? Why did he take ammo that he himself couldnt even use? When he died he said 'sorry'

Because Bill just wanted to party. He's been alone upstairs for the majority of the series up until then. He took ammo because I'm sure he felt threatened at times. He said sorry for taking the food and ammo. Remember, Bill was on the front lines when it came to fighting off the Mallers. Had that not happened, I'd be leaning a tad into the realm of rat/shooter being different people.

[HardKor]

Why was Bill encouraging everybody to get drunk then? Why did he take ammo that he himself couldnt even use? When he died he said 'sorry'

I'm still under the assumption that Bill was the thief and stole both the ammo and food. As for why he would do it? Its the end of the world. People have a tendency to make selfish decisions in survival situations like that. He stole stuff to ensure he had enough and didn't really give a damn about everyone else.
By the time he came out and joined everyone else he was feeling more open to the Tower community as a whole, which is why is joined in so enthusiastically during the party. Then when he was dying after getting shot, he said "I'm sorry" for stealing stuff. At least that's my interpretation. But none of that ever definitively proved him to be "the rat" meaning the person who betrayed the Tower to the Mallers.

[Pandora]

Yea...Riley said Michael is not her type...she likes them 'tall and blonde' and 'Angel doesnt get it...oh well it is still flattering I suppose' also She SAYS she was a cook with 4 ovens and stuff...wouldnt that be something you would find in a prison? As well as being a lesbian? She said right off the bat if Michael and Saul hadnt given her a gun she would have stolen one (and she is pretty good with weapons). The footsteps after Pippins murder sound feminine. And the smoking...I think it is odd she smokes if she has her priorities so straight (arena locker room) smoking is prolly pretty common for ppl in prison.

[7oddisdead]

Couple things....
Kalani still could gave done it, he would have had a purpose for shooting the radio, to buy him a datu time to get out of the tower.... Don't see much other purpose in shooting the radio. And it's been mentioned already but he and datu were not together the whole time.
A bit a foreshadowing maybe, but when Saul mentioned somebody needed to drive the hummer back. Anybody else get the feeling that he is gonna go on the look for Lizzie. Meaning we won't get back to her story till the choppers flying
And this is probably nothing but it bothers me. Angel said Lewis's hands smell like gas..... The generator runs on diesel

[Grognaurd]

Thank you to all involved with we're alive. Great work!

[Dameon1213]

Couple things....
Kalani still could gave done it, he would have had a purpose for shooting the radio, to buy him a datu time to get out of the tower.... Don't see much other purpose in shooting the radio. And it's been mentioned already but he and datu were not together the whole time.
A bit a foreshadowing maybe, but when Saul mentioned somebody needed to drive the hummer back. Anybody else get the feeling that he is gonna go on the look for Lizzie. Meaning we won't get back to her story till the choppers flying
And this is probably nothing but it bothers me. Angel said Lewis's hands smell like gas..... The generator runs on diesel

i never saw it this way, but yeah it makes sense for saul to take the hummer to look for lizzie, my biggest concern is the fact that they havent thought, "oh hey there is something going down over near the rink, maybe lizzie and the mallers are over there, i understand they are looking for a chopper, but you would have thought that a search party would go in that direction in hopes to find something

[vattenflaska]

To tell you the truth though, with this episode, the idea that Kelly might be the traitor seems stronger than ever. She would be sneaky enough to trip the alarm and kill him and not hope. Also she does seem like the kind of person with enough balls to do it. Now more than ever. AND she was the only one with a motive before to actually leave the tower. However, her with the Mallers? kinda iffy since they probably wouldn't like her too much, who knows how many of them where in prison thanks to her?

Yeah, but why?
What has she got to gain from it?

[ObamaCat]

Another fantastic episode Mr. Wayland :D

Some of my thoughts:

1) Yea Pegs! Can't wait to see her fly a helicopter (God willing she doesn't crack it up) and develop as a character as a result of said flight.

2) The rat. I'm really leaning towards Kelly being the rat, with Victor as her aid (ohh betcha didn't think of that one ;) ), but all your chatter has me considering Riley as well.

3) And lastly, nice touch on Riley's callsign. "Oiseau" the french word for bird :)

Also:


The fact that there are many different types of zombies especially in different parts of Cali makes me wonder where on Earth they came from?? The labs?? Failed experiment??? O man I really want to know!!!!

This makes me wonder what the zombies look like across the globe.... :S :3

[Grognaurd]

A few things

We suspected Pegs had flight experience because when they are at the boat she tells Michael her father was a pilot

Hope. I do not know how many of us have been on the wrong side of a firearm, but I can forgive her for not remembering Alcohol or Aftershave

Riley, Michael and Angel had paccess to Burt's bag

It's you. Pippin has not seen Riley nor Kalani

We do not know where the alarm wire was cut. Assuming Michael did not cut it in the guard post (really dumb) we can rule out Angel

Interestingly, Riley does not have have an alibi and has access to Burt's missing gun and was in proximity of the scene of the crime has not been seen by Pippin at the tower and loves tall blondes and shares a room with Lizzie ....

Riley could have gone to the guard room to shoot Pippin or Steven. Remember, Steven was to be on guard duty. I will have to listen to the back episodes, but does Riley even know Pippin is "here"?

As to why shoot the radio? Anger. It is what has gotten her into all this trouble. Little lies often mushroom into blackmail and keep heading down hill picking up speed

For the it's not Riley crew...
Victor and Kelley both have access to the silenced mp5. Maybe Kelley spent enough time with him to know he is. Threat


As for me, I am sticking to my "guns" and following the silencer. It is where logic leads even if I do not necessarily like where it is headed. But, it is good writing!

Last but not least we have three events and they do not have to be the same person
The Hoarder
The Rat
The Shooter

[7oddisdead]

Dunno bout anyone else.. But victor is the reason I don't suspect Kelly.. Also if her plan was to set off hurts alarm to clear the area to take pippin out... Why didn't she do it during the six hours she was in there with him? Would have been a bit simpler I think...
And if hope couldn't smell the booze on Riley. Would she have smell the cologne on victor?
Hell of a puzzle this one is..... Excellent work by mr. Wayland for sure!!

[Grognaurd]

Couple things....
Kalani still could gave done it, he would have had a purpose for shooting the radio, to buy him a datu time to get out of the tower.... Don't see much other purpose in shooting the radio. And it's been mentioned already but he and datu were not together the whole time.
A bit a foreshadowing maybe, but when Saul mentioned somebody needed to drive the hummer back. Anybody else get the feeling that he is gonna go on the look for Lizzie. Meaning we won't get back to her story till the choppers flying
And this is probably nothing but it bothers me. Angel said Lewis's hands smell like gas..... The generator runs on diesel

Yup. The gas diesel mis-speak. That is why Datu will never let him near the generator.

[nikvoodoo]

I'll repost this theory as to the potential meaning of Pippin's "It's You" because I believe it may have been lost in the snarl of Part 1's thread:

Lets just imagine that Pippin was an informant/plant/mole/whatever seeking out the original rat to reestablish contact. Pippin knows he is seeking someone out. But he's never met this person and isn't sure who it may be.

All of a sudden while he's in the guard room, an alarm goes off, and a person enters the room holding a silenced pistol (which has to be out already because you don't hear any sound of a weapon being drawn). It becomes obvious to him, this is who he was supposed to be searching for ("It's you") but sadly it's too late and Pippin is toast.

In this instance Pippin could have met everyone and shook their hand in line and held a conversation with them. But if he wasn't sure who he was looking for it wouldn't make a difference if he had met them before or not. The "It's you" could be prompted by someone he's already met but has now revealed themselves as the Rat to him by coming in holding an assassins weapon.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

Dunno bout anyone else.. But victor is the reason I don't suspect Kelly.. Also if her plan was to set off burts alarm to clear the area to take pippin out... Why didn't she do it during the six hours she was in there with him? Would have been a bit simpler I think...
And if hope couldn't smell the booze on Riley. Would she have smell the cologne on victor?
Hell of a puzzle this one is..... Excellent work by mr. Wayland for sure!!

Well if she did it while she was in the room with Pippin on guard duty, it would make it pretty obvious that it was her who assassinated Pippin. I don't think anyone could ignore her sitting in a room with a dead body and not think it was her.


Couple things....
Kalani still could gave done it, he would have had a purpose for shooting the radio, to buy him a datu time to get out of the tower.... Don't see much other purpose in shooting the radio. And it's been mentioned already but he and datu were not together the whole time.
A bit a foreshadowing maybe, but when Saul mentioned somebody needed to drive the hummer back. Anybody else get the feeling that he is gonna go on the look for Lizzie. Meaning we won't get back to her story till the choppers flying
And this is probably nothing but it bothers me. Angel said Lewis's hands smell like gas..... The generator runs on diesel

Shooting The Radio
- I believe for the rat/assassin/former rat meant to cause chaos and miscommunication within the Tower. Shooting the Towers main radio would knock communications out between the Tower and the search parties looking for other helicopters and stuff.

Datu & Kalani
- As I've posted in a previous post Angel said that Datu and Kalani were together the whole time before the incident happen (the alarm sounding). Also 1 minute and 45 seconds between the time Kalani leaves Micheal and Tanya isn't a lot of time for someone like Kalani to get up and down floors so quickly, especially considering that he'd be breathing pretty hard if he was running around that much in the first place.

Gas & Diesel
- I don't know what diesel really smells like, but most people, even Angel, probably don't know either. When Burt, Lizzy and Saul were getting diesel Burt was using more of a color/texture description to make distinctions between gas and diesel which could mean that gas and diesel smell pretty similar to each other leading to "gas" smell on Lewis' hands.

[7oddisdead]

Well if she did it while she was in the room with Pippin on guard duty, it would make it pretty obvious that it was her who assassinated Pippin. I don't think anyone could ignore her sitting in a room with a dead body and not think it was her.

Let me paint the picture for you then. Pippin is droning on about england... Kelly checks out the door to see if coast is clear... It is. So she cuts the wire and sets off the alarm...then pops back in the room and goes to check out burts room. The alarm would draw a crowd to see her there, or on her way there. Then they go back to find pippin dead, she simply tosses the gun on the way there...and I doubt they could check for Prints and by the time the commotion is over she could have already cleaned her hands and played dumb.... Hell, I dunno... I'm jus saying....

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

Let me paint the picture for you then. Pippin is droning on about england... Kelly checks out the door to see if coast is clear... It is. So she cuts the wire and sets off the alarm...then pops back in the room and goes to check out burts room. The alarm would draw a crowd to see her there, or on her way there. Then they go back to find pippin dead, she simply tosses the gun on the way there...and I doubt they could check for Prints and by the time the commotion is over she could have already cleaned her hands and played dumb.... Hell, I dunno... I'm jus saying....

I don't know about anyone else but I pictured Angel & Michael as the only ones who ran to Burt's room/Armory since I didn't here any background chatter that would indicate anyone else was around. Also everyone else were off on assignments and therefore might not be around to hear the alarm.

As for the gun, if she threw it away (presumably in the stairwell) someone would find it. <= Probably my weakest argument as the assassin probably still has the pistol.

To Get Really Anal...

I timed the alarm from both episodes (Chapter 22 Part 1 & 2).

Chapter 22 Part 1 from the time the alarm sounds to when the assassin runs out from the room after assassinating Pippin and shooting the radio

Chapter 22 Part 2 from the time the alarm sounds to when Angel kills the alarm.

Both came out to 37 seconds (give or take a second on my part) (Kudos to KC & The Editing Team).

Also it took Michael and Angel 13 seconds to get from Burt's room and the Guard room.

[7oddisdead]

Agreed on most points, well played.... I'm just throwing out ideas here..

[UneasyEric]

Ok stick with me for a minute. I'm leaning toward the rat/shooter being Riley. She seemed to be I. The area when it happened, does not have a good alibi, and seemed to over react at seeing Pippin dead. ( she hid in a pile of dead bodies for god sake). I really don't know what her motive is, but I still think it's her.

That being said, at the end of this episode Kalani calls to the tower and she answers. Riley answers! What if she is the rat and instead of telling Micheal that the chopper might be salvageable she tell Durai or any other Mallers. Then then head to LAX and attack Kalani, Datu, Burt, and Saul.

I know I'm going out on a limb, but I had a pretty good silent freak out when I finished this episode and wanted to share my thoughts.

[Leet693]

My bets on Kelly. As, a character she has developed a lot. At the start she was always challenging Micheal's authority, but became especially loyal after Tommy died. I think she probably didn't think the Mallers were so bad and contacted them, but when they got Tommy killed that all changed. She became furiously loyal to the tower, but do the Maller's know that? My bet is that Pippin was a plant only a few Maller's knew about (Duri or however you spell it). They probably let a few slaves slip gave him a little head start, and sent out search parties (Bricks, and Tardust), that would also explain how Lizzy was found and how the slaves escaped in the first place.

Back though to Kelly. She wouldn't want to disrupt the tower to the point it would collapse. I think she shot the radio so that all the teams wouldn't immediately come back because they needed to keep working. She also spent 6 hours talking to Pippin probably finding a loup hole in his story and realizing that he was a plant meant to contact or help her. He probably didn't know because of compartmentalization of the plan. If Pippin let something slip it could compromise the plan. So what the Maller's were banking on is that the traitor would find him and he would do what he was supposed too.

Besides there were more opportunities for any traitor to hand the tower over to the Mallers. The shooter has a silenced pistol there is at most 20 some people in the tower right now, if they really wanted to they could tear through most of those people without getting caught (The bretta is a 9M if I remember correctly and they have a lot of ammo for that gun).

[mascaria]

Gas & Diesel
- I don't know what diesel really smells like, but most people, even Angel, probably don't know either. When Burt, Lizzy and Saul were getting diesel Burt was using more of a color/texture description to make distinctions between gas and diesel which could mean that gas and diesel smell pretty similar to each other leading to "gas" smell on Lewis' hands.

I've worked at a gas station and had to measure fuel levels at night and I can tell you 100% that you most certainly can tell the difference between gas and diesel fuel by scent, even if you don't know what diesel smells like you'll know that it's not gas when you smell it.


Ok stick with me for a minute. I'm leaning toward the rat/shooter being Riley. She seemed to be I. The area when it happened, does not have a good alibi, and seemed to over react at seeing Pippin dead. ( she hid in a pile of dead bodies for god sake). I really don't know what her motive is, but I still think it's her.


I don't think that hiding in a pile of dead bodies means that some one should no longer react to seeing some one who has been shot three times. Also! She was drunk, drunk people over react. She didn't do it.

[ZombieMama]

Pippin could have met everyone and shook their hand in line and held a conversation with them. But if he wasn't sure who he was looking for it wouldn't make a difference if he had met them before or not. The "It's you" could be prompted by someone he's already met but has now revealed themselves as the Rat to him by coming in holding an assassins weapon.

That's an extremely thoughtful take on the situation and I very much agree with it. It would enforce both of these:

Kelly as a Rat - After the 6 hour conversation, she becomes convinced of his purpose in the tower. To those who say "Why didn't she do it while she was on duty" well, think about the fact that it would have been quite difficult to cover it up. If she had pretended it to be an ambush she would have had to see who did it. If she did it silently she would have had to see who did it. It just would have been very hard to pull off. It would have obviously put her in the spot and made it more difficult to hide her now "loyal" status.

Riley as a Rat - Her attitude has changed a lot since she came back from her little trip. She could just be dealing with her change of heart. Another thing, she jumped very quickly to say "BUT THERE'S ANOTHER RADIO RIGHT?" with almost no thought. She was extremely jumpy. Angel and Michael now placed her on guard duty (i think) and we might see her cleaning up her mess in the next episode, or at least trying to.

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST! i need some one to help me catch on something said by angel. I'm pretty sure se directed it towards Riley. He screams "Of course you left, you always leave!" (5:45-5:55). However it almost sounds like there's a 4th person in the room besides Michael, Angel, and Riley. I can't tell what she say's before that either...
help?

[HardKor]

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST! i need some one to help me catch on something said by angel. I'm pretty sure se directed it towards Riley. He screams "Of course you left, you always leave!" (5:45-5:55). However it almost sounds like there's a 4th person in the room besides Michael, Angel, and Riley. I can't tell what she say's before that either...
help?

I went back and listened to that bit. It sounds like multiple people were showing up. I heard someone say "what happened?" and then someone ask "who was on guard?" I can't be certain but I think it was Kelly.

[ZombieMama]

I went back and listened to that bit. It sounds like multiple people were showing up. I heard someone say "what happened?" and then someone ask "who was on guard?" I can't be certain but I think it was Kelly.

I wonder who those people where then... and if that was to Riley man would it frame her as the rat...

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

I went back and listened to that bit. It sounds like multiple people were showing up. I heard someone say "what happened?" and then someone ask "who was on guard?" I can't be certain but I think it was Kelly.

I think it was Kelly, but I can't confirm it. I was hoping KC would clear it up.

[cupcakezombie]

It sounded like stressed Kelly to me. Slightly different voice, but what you might expect given the situation.

[Kc]

I think it was Kelly, but I can't confirm it. I was hoping KC would clear it up.

Yes, that was Kelly who came in-

[ZombieMama]

Yes, that was Kelly who came in-

:O Time to start rethinking my theories then. Thank's KC for not letting me sleep tonight

[zombiederek]

Isn't it always nice to hear when a show finally aligns itself to things you've been saying for months? (Like who the extra pilot will be, and things of that nature?). Tanya gets multiple awards this episode because she's the one who's setting us up long term for things that are going to happen once things get settled down. Tanya also gets the quote of the episode: "You're asking me? Its your building!"

I gotta disagree, the quote of the episode was Angel's "unless he's Jay Garrick" line lol

[nikvoodoo]

I gotta disagree, the quote of the episode was Angel's "unless he's Jay Garrick" line lol

Yeah, that's true, but the problem is I'm not up to speed on my Golden Age DC comics, so I had to look up who Jay Garrick was. That made me enjoy the joke less because I had to hunt for the answer :p

Now had I known who Jay Garrick was right off the bat? Yeah, you're right. That probably would have been the line of the episode for me.

[Ra1th]

Yeah, that's true, but the problem is I'm not up to speed on my Golden Age DC comics, so I had to look up who Jay Garrick was. That made me enjoy the joke less because I had to hunt for the answer :p

Now had I known who Jay Garrick was right off the bat? Yeah, you're right. That probably would have been the line of the episode for me.

Yeah why choose Jay garrick? that's like the flash no one's ever heard of. Why not Barry allen or the wally west or someone?

[nikvoodoo]

Yeah why choose Jay garrick? that's like the flash no one's ever heard of. Why not Barry allen or the wally west or someone?

Exactly! Say either of those and I go "HA! Flash...."

[Ryan]

I was going to hold a few of the points since I was supposed to be on WND, but Britt hasn't gotten back to me yet. S'all good saying my points though.

-She was rejected from Lizzy just before the Tower had their meeting with Scratch and Latch. She was also tipsy/drunk while they were talking. I feel like this could've given her a sense of betrayal.
-She has her shop stolen from during the tattoo'd zombie invasion. I think this fueled more distrust.
-She didn't say a thing during the vote for a day off.
-Angel has to go and "find" her during the party. She only appeared pre-party to set up.
-While Angel picked Riley to help get the water from the firetruck, he brings up "trust." This is peculiar since minutes before, Bill was thought to be the rat by the group. Seems like a foreshadowing to Riley being the rat.
It was Burt who brought up picking someone trusted for the firetruck mission. When he second-guessed Angel picking Riley Angel reiterated that he trusted Riley, not at all surprising given what happened at the Arena.

[cupcakezombie]

On another tangent, what do the helicopter/military experts have to say about this plan for repairing the Jolly Green Giant?

[AdrianHD]

It was Burt who brought up picking someone trusted for the firetruck mission. When he second-guessed Angel picking Riley Angel reiterated that he trusted Riley, not at all surprising given what happened at the Arena.

Yeah, I'm not saying anything against that. I'm just saying that it's funny how trust is brought up like one scene after Michael had embedded in his mind that Bill was the rat.

[Jeebogs]

Had a listen last night, and something struck me as strange. Tanya mentions that at the colony they weren't allowed to do any kind of research into the zombies and that the sweat/scent thing was new to her. But didn't Victor smash some (wine?) bottles when Michael, pegs and Kelly first met him and they were running from Zombies coming their way. Also, he's wearing tons of cologne. He obviously knows about the scent thing, so why doesn't Tanya?

[7oddisdead]

Could that be something he figured out on his own. And just didn't share with anyone at the colony? He said he wasn't loyal to either side....

[cupcakezombie]

Had a listen last night, and something struck me as strange. Tanya mentions that at the colony they weren't allowed to do any kind of research into the zombies and that the sweat/scent thing was new to her. But didn't Victor smash some (wine?) bottles when Michael, pegs and Kelly first met him and they were running from Zombies coming their way. Also, he's wearing tons of cologne. He obviously knows about the scent thing, so why doesn't Tanya?

The colony didn't seem big on information sharing, or mixing with other groups. Even in the bar the groups that went 'outside' were all separate. There was no central intelligence base working towards the better good, instead factions each working to better themselves/survive

[clarkie]

First of all - really, really like the episode this week. Think this chapter could be one of the best yet (so far, anyway).

Going to read through all of the posts in this thread and maybe listen to the episode one more time before posting some ideas and theories...

[Arkum]

To be revealed in pat 3...Hope had a stuffed nose. DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNN

[Grognaurd]

On another tangent, what do the helicopter/military experts have to say about this plan for repairing the Jolly Green Giant?

I am not an expert, but it appears to be a hydrolic line. I do not think they have anything like a simple fix for garden hoses. I believe that the helicopter is a major plot element so I bet it gets fixed.

So, repair the line
BE SURE TO BLEED it of air. Air in hydrolics is bad. Hydrolics works because you cannot compress a water. But, we can compress air. So any air bubble would sap the strength of the power transfer

The helicopter must be under some sort of structure. But, Hydrolic fluid is Hydrolic which is Hydro which is water. So, any dye they put in the fluid will wash away with the rain. Not an expert, just guessing.

[Jeebogs]

The colony didn't seem big on information sharing, or mixing with other groups. Even in the bar the groups that went 'outside' were all separate. There was no central intelligence base working towards the better good, instead factions each working to better themselves/survive

Good point, but the bottles were already there, ready to use, and someone other than Victor will have known, surely?

[Arkum]

I am not an expert, but it appears to be a hydrolic line. I do not think they have anything like a simple fix for garden hoses. I believe that the helicopter is a major plot element so I bet it gets fixed.

So, repair the line
BE SURE TO BLEED it of air. Air in hydrolics is bad. Hydrolics works because you cannot compress a water. But, we can compress air. So any air bubble would sap the strength of the power transfer

The helicopter must be under some sort of structure. But, Hydrolic fluid is Hydrolic which is Hydro which is water. So, any dye they put in the fluid will wash away with the rain. Not an expert, just guessing.

Its hydraulic, which is just fluid power (hydraulic oil). Basically a pump forces the oil through the line which passes through gears at some point causing a shaft to turn (hydraulic motor). They'll need to replace the hose, or patch it though hydraulic systems run at a very high pressure using braided hose that, at least here at work, we never patch, just replace. Then refill the reservoir to eliminate the system sucking air and creating foam in the oil.

[Rock Daddy]

Oh awesome episode. Thanks Kc, Shane, & Crew! This sh*t's getting deep! AND... Hope was NOT harmed. IT WAS THE RADIO! WOOT! Check it! :)
http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?1660-Chapter-22-quot-Our-Doubts-Are-Traitors-quot-Part-1&p=15911#post15911

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Had a listen last night, and something struck me as strange. Tanya mentions that at the colony they weren't allowed to do any kind of research into the zombies and that the sweat/scent thing was new to her. But didn't Victor smash some (wine?) bottles when Michael, pegs and Kelly first met him and they were running from Zombies coming their way. Also, he's wearing tons of cologne. He obviously knows about the scent thing, so why doesn't Tanya?

Not sure if anyone answered this yet, but Cologne and Sweat have two different purposes. cologne is used to throw them off the scent while the Sweat draws them in.

[Rock Daddy]

Oh yeah, and about Pegs being the second Pilot...
BAM!
http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?1456-Chapter-21-quot-Mark-of-the-Beast-quot-Part-1&p=12035&viewfull=1#post12035
Rock Daddy's en fuego! ;)

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Yeah, that's true, but the problem is I'm not up to speed on my Golden Age DC comics, so I had to look up who Jay Garrick was. That made me enjoy the joke less because I had to hunt for the answer :p

Now had I known who Jay Garrick was right off the bat? Yeah, you're right. That probably would have been the line of the episode for me.

LOL! Even I didn't catch that one and I'm a huge Comic Nerd. It wasn't until you said Golden Age DC did my "Oh Damn!" light go on.

Great episode. I was wrong when I thought Michael would flip on Angel. Blindly rushing to an alarm is still a great way to end up worm food though.
My only confused moment is that no one seemed to know about the alarm to the Armory other than the "Rat."
Everyone kept saying "What's that?" Maybe i'm reading into it too much

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Yeah why choose Jay garrick? that's like the flash no one's ever heard of. Why not Barry allen or the wally west or someone?

Because it's the KCverse (which is kinda like Bizzaro world) and mentioning those two names would have been way too easy!

[Creem_Filling]

My only confused moment is that no one seemed to know about the alarm to the Armory other than the "Rat."
Everyone kept saying "What's that?" Maybe i'm reading into it too much

You make an excellent point that I hadn't thought of. But consider, the people who were saying "what's that" were all new to the tower. It's not surprising that Hope, Pippin, and Saul's mother (who's name escapes me) wouldn't know about it. With so much happening in the tower since they arrived, no one has probably thought it necesarry to explain all the functions of the tower. And also, how often have they actually had the alarms go off? Not enough that everyone is going to recognize it right away.

[Grognaurd]

Cool, thanks Arkum.

Face Palm over spelling error of latin root word...

[clarkie]

Okay. A couple of things about the shooter.

For me, Riley is still prime suspect. The whole smell thing suggests it's not her, but bear in mind that Pippen stank when he first came, and from what I can gather hasn't been allowed to wash since. Is it not reasonable to assume that his smell masked that of Riley? Also, Michael says that Hope "wanted to scream but was barely able to breath". If she can barely breath, how could she smell? Finally, her over-reaction to seeing Pippen dead sounds fake (considering she supposedly doesn't know him and has seen plenty of other people killed. Like someone else said, she didn't even moan that much when she had to hide in a pile of bodies), after which she is fine to sit in the guard room while he's still there. Very strange behaviour...

My other theory was Steven, and while I'm becoming less and less sure of this possibility (it seems more than a little bit obvious), it would be a cool plot point if he ended up saving everyone moments before (or indeed after) being found out as the shooter/rat. This is PURE speculation as to future events, but the situation the rest f the tower would be put in would be awesome to listen to. This guy has just saved your ass, but you know he betrayed you in the past, what do you do?

[Arkum]

Cool, thanks Arkum.

Face Palm over spelling error of latin root word...

No worries, glad an engineering degree is paying off. lol

I'm still saying its Riley as well clarkie

[Rock Daddy]

Because it's the KCverse (which is kinda like Bizzaro world) and mentioning those two names would have been way too easy!

Yeah, I like how Kc slipped that in. Like, he wanted even the majority of the nerds here to be like, "Wait... Who?" LOL

Reminds me of "Catch Me If You Can". Didn't he use the Wally West Flash name as his alias in the movie?

[nikvoodoo]

Had a listen last night, and something struck me as strange. Tanya mentions that at the colony they weren't allowed to do any kind of research into the zombies and that the sweat/scent thing was new to her. But didn't Victor smash some (wine?) bottles when Michael, pegs and Kelly first met him and they were running from Zombies coming their way. Also, he's wearing tons of cologne. He obviously knows about the scent thing, so why doesn't Tanya?
I think it's likely that through trial and error, Victor or Fernando figured out that cologne threw the zombies off their trail. They may never have made the connection as to sweat/odor being why they were being chased so effectively by the zombies. Victor might have put two and two together since he arrived at the Tower because he was never mentioned to have worn cologne before I don't think.


My only confused moment is that no one seemed to know about the alarm to the Armory other than the "Rat."
Everyone kept saying "What's that?" Maybe i'm reading into it too much
I think it's likely that no one has heard the alarm go off since it was installed in the armory. It would have been tested once or twice, but not everyone would have heard it before. That's why I think there's so much confusion goin' on.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Nik,

"I'd buy that for a dollar" if it wasn't Mike who yelled "What's that?" The alarm was going off kinda loudly wasn't it? The only way I give this a pass is if there were multiple alarms going off or they had sensors on other areas in the tower.
One last question: aren't most of the living quarters on two floors only now?

[Grognaurd]

I think the alarm sound is in the hallway. When Angel and Hope are in the Guardroom, it sounds muffled. Angel opens the door it gets louder. It closes and get quieter as Hope and Pippin speak. I originally believed that Angel had to think about it and then came up with Burt's alarm. But, Angel says it is wired through the guard room. Maybe there really is a a flashing light that says "Burts"

[nikvoodoo]

Nik,

"I'd buy that for a dollar" if it wasn't Mike who yelled "What's that?" The alarm was going off kinda loudly wasn't it? The only way I give this a pass is if there were multiple alarms going off or they had sensors on other areas in the tower.
One last question: aren't most of the living quarters on two floors only now?

Well hell, Angel couldn't figure it out right away either. If the leader of the Tower and his right hand guy couldn't figure it out (most likely for dramatic purposes and nothing more) I can't imagine Riley, Kelly, Pegs, Lewis, Steven, or any other faceless Tower resident being able to figure it out yet.

And yes. I believe the living quarters are between floors 5-7. Though I'm honestly confused about the entire layout of where things are in the tower right now. Some things just aren't adding up in terms of where the guard room is vs. the living quarters vs. the armory/store (if there is a store anymore). Maybe if its not too spoilery Kc can clear that up because I was positive the armory would be on the same floor as the guard room like it had been before the war. Obviously that isn't the case.

[Kc]

Maybe if its not too spoilery Kc can clear that up because I was positive the armory would be on the same floor as the guard room like it had been before the war. Obviously that isn't the case.
Burt's room is not on the same floor as the guard room. Not any more anyway.

[nikvoodoo]

Burt's room is not on the same floor as the guard room. Not any more anyway.

so does that make it Burt's armory on 4, the guard room and some living quarters on 5, and then more living quarters on 6 and 7? Or something similar to that?

[Grognaurd]

I have the impression that if we put Burt's room at "0" the guard station is "-1" Tanya and Michael were "+1". The aid station does not have to be on the same one as the computer. Most people probably went to lockdown like they did when the one with the markings / Paul hit them

[Kc]

so does that make it Burt's armory on 4, the guard room and some living quarters on 5, and then more living quarters on 6 and 7? Or something similar to that?
Guard room on 4, Burt's Armory on 5. [It might be 5 and 6, I don't have my notes, but the guard room is a floor below Burt's]

[nikvoodoo]

Guard room on 4, Burt's Armory on 5. [It might be 5 and 6, I don't have my notes, but the guard room is a floor below Burt's]

Thanks, kc! That helps a lot :)

[Kc]

I have the impression that if we put Burt's room at "0" the guard station is "-1" Tanya and Michael were "+1". The aid station does not have to be on the same one as the computer. Most people probably went to lockdown like they did when the one with the markings / Paul hit them
Tanya and Michael were on the same floor as Burt, just a different end of the hall.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Tonya is on 6 correct? Everyone made the move to quarters above the 4th or 5th floor after the war correct? Most of the apartments above 7th would be empty because people..are well, lazy. Too many stairs I think was the reason. That could have just been prior to Kelly intro episode.

Anyway, I also thought the "Armory" was also Burt's domicile?

[Grognaurd]

I will have to listen again tonight. My memory is Angel hears an alarm and exits the guard room.
Michael hears the alarm and leaves the "computer room"
Michael gets to the stairway. I think it is a cement structure with metal stairs. SO, lots of echoes.

Michael sees Angel down a flight or two of stairs. Angel says "Comon" then we hear more metal stairs.

If Micahel is on Burts floor and Angel is on his way, why would Angel say comon? If Michael was on the same floor as Burt's armory, and was told the alarm was for Burts armory would he wait for backup (thus the delay and more stair sounds) or would he run right to Burt's? In any case, there is a squabble at the lock with Angel arriving first, but then hesitating and not unlocking it.

[Kc]

Tonya is on 6 correct? Everyone made the move to quarters above the 4th or 5th floor after the war correct? Most of the apartments above 7th would be empty because people..are well, lazy. Too many stairs I think was the reason. That could have just been prior to Kelly intro episode.

Anyway, I also thought the "Armory" was also Burt's domicile?

She might live up there, but she was on the same floor as Michael when the events in 22 unfolded. The Armory is Burt's room.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Roger that.

Tango Kilo Charlie for the clear up.

[blue rage]

I'll repost this theory as to the potential meaning of Pippin's "It's You" because I believe it may have been lost in the snarl of Part 1's thread:

Lets just imagine that Pippin was an informant/plant/mole/whatever seeking out the original rat to reestablish contact. Pippin knows he is seeking someone out. But he's never met this person and isn't sure who it may be.

All of a sudden while he's in the guard room, an alarm goes off, and a person enters the room holding a silenced pistol (which has to be out already because you don't hear any sound of a weapon being drawn). It becomes obvious to him, this is who he was supposed to be searching for ("It's you") but sadly it's too late and Pippin is toast.

In this instance Pippin could have met everyone and shook their hand in line and held a conversation with them. But if he wasn't sure who he was looking for it wouldn't make a difference if he had met them before or not. The "It's you" could be prompted by someone he's already met but has now revealed themselves as the Rat to him by coming in holding an assassins weapon.

your reading my mind. This is why i believe the shooter was Kelly. All the time spent chatting with him was really a way of determining his intentions.
I truly believe Kelly contacted the mallers in a fit of anger at Michael and now truly regrets her decision. She will now do anything to protect the tower.

[Don Man]

Lewis is my kind of guy

[Wicked Sid]

your reading my mind. This is why i believe the shooter was Kelly. All the time spent chatting with him was really a way of determining his intentions.
I truly believe Kelly contacted the mallers in a fit of anger at Michael and now truly regrets her decision. She will now do anything to protect the tower.

The only problem with it being Kelly, is that does she have any technical skills? You would need at least some training in wiring and electrical systems to trip the alarm remotely from the available wires near the guard room.

Plus, Riley was lying when she didn't see anyone. It's not that difficult to detect; unless it was just her drunken accent.

[j0be]

Well, most theories I had (were/are currently being) discussed. This is one I'm just going to sit back and watch the fireworks go off, instead of trying to evaluate whether it's a cake or a mortar from the sound of the squib. (yay metaphor, and yes I know too much about fireworks)

I'm just going to comment about one thing. HUGE props to Kc Wayland / Ron Ghallager / Katie Wayland on the music for this episode. It's a subtle thing, but adds so much to this episode. Big kudos.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

I'm just going to comment about one thing. HUGE props to Kc Wayland / Ron Ghallager / Katie Wayland on the music for this episode. It's a subtle thing, but adds so much to this episode. Big kudos.

Speaking of music, did anyone else think of Silent Hill at 13:26/21:19?

And yes, great job on the music for this episode!

[Leet693]

What's with all the hate on Riley? She has no motive. Most times in these situations clues have already been given out, unless I forgot something Riley's just mad at herself for what happened to Lizzy. Besides I don't think KC would just turn around and say: "just kidding about the scent thing!"

[HardKor]

What's with all the hate on Riley? She has no motive. Most times in these situations clues have already been given out, unless I forgot something Riley's just mad at herself for what happened to Lizzy. Besides I don't think KC would just turn around and say: "just kidding about the scent thing!"

in 20-3 Scratch makes mention of the Mallers having a "her" during a conversation with Tardust (right after mentioning that she is going to drop Pippin off [around 12:25]). I know I for one have been theorizing that this "her" might be a hostage. If this is the case everyone in the Tower could have a potential motive.
As for the scent factor, She could have splashed herself with booze after killing Pippin to throw off people off her trail. When Angel and Riley were on the roof before, Angel didn't mention her smelling of alcohol. It was more like he noticed her acting drunk (slurred speech, stumbling. knocking things over, etc...).

P.S.
Riley also has the best motive for stealing the silenced pistol in the first place. I wondered in the part 1 thread why someone would steal the gun because whoever did it would have had to steal it before Pippin showed up either before or during the Lizzie rescue attempt. Riley has a motive for stealing the gun: Steven. She might have wanted to kill ol' Steve for getting Lizzie kicked out and then Pippin shows up and takes priority.
I doubt it will happen, but if Steven winds up with a cap in his ass I'm declaring victory. :cool:

[Arkum]

Its not hate. I love Riley for all her lying traitor ratness.

[Mordekii]

Maybe im wrong but.... <br />
<br />
Kalani was Burt's Right-Hand Man when he was in charge, and that is when they moved the armory. So it would seem that everyone present at the time of the shooting had no...

[cPT.cAPSLOCK]

One more thing, Pippin was killed professional style. What I heard was a pro job, 2 to the chest and 1 to the head. Doubt anyone like Kelly would do it with style like that.
Emphasis mine.

Actually, there were two bullets fired to Pippin, and one on the radio (which first gives the impression Hope got shot).
Michael and Angel mention the radio was shot.

[HardKor]

Emphasis mine.

Actually, there were two bullets fired to Pippin, and one on the radio (which first gives the impression Hope got shot).
Michael and Angel mention the radio was shot.

There were three shots into Pippin and one in the radio (two shots, a pause and some gurgling, a third shot, Hope begging for the assailant not to shoot, then the radio is shot)

[nikvoodoo]

Mordekii and hardkor are right. 4 shots total in the guard room. Presumably 3 at Pippin, and the 4th at the radio.

As for Riley acting like she's a drunk....its not acting. Throughout the series Riley has shown evidence of being an alcoholic or at the very least enjoying getting drunk far more than anyone else. Outside of the party, who else in the Tower has been shown drinking? And aside from a bow and arrow, the "prop" I most associate Riley with is a liquor bottle. She was drunk the night Latch and Scratch appeared at the Tower, she knew she wouldn't want to drink the wine they broke to cover her and Angel's scent in the kitchen during the Arena mission (I realize that could be because she's a chef as well), and now she's drunk again. Riley doesn't get a whole bunch of face time on the show, but a lot of it has involved alcohol.

To be clear, I'm not saying she is. I'm just saying there's evidence she could be. It also might just be the French cultural thing where she drinks because it was acceptable behavior when she was growing up. But...who knows.

[Leedo2502]

Definitly! and i think leedo and everyone else are gonna have a cow when they find out what type the helicopter was XD

Effing Aye Right Mikey! LOL I was hoping that it would have been more conspiratorial le' sigh

[yarri]

in 20-3 Scratch makes mention of the Mallers having a "her" during a conversation with Tardust (right after mentioning that she is going to drop Pippin off [around 12:25]). I know I for one have been theorizing that this "her" might be a hostage. If this is the case everyone in the Tower could have a potential motive.
As for the scent factor, She could have splashed herself with booze after killing Pippin to throw off people off her trail. When Angel and Riley were on the roof before, Angel didn't mention her smelling of alcohol. It was more like he noticed her acting drunk (slurred speech, stumbling. knocking things over, etc...).

P.S.
Riley also has the best motive for stealing the silenced pistol in the first place. I wondered in the part 1 thread why someone would steal the gun because whoever did it would have had to steal it before Pippin showed up either before or during the Lizzie rescue attempt. Riley has a motive for stealing the gun: Steven. She might have wanted to kill ol' Steve for getting Lizzie kicked out and then Pippin shows up and takes priority.
I doubt it will happen, but if Steven winds up with a cap in his ass I'm declaring victory. :cool:


Ok I am not crazy someone else thought of this.. *dabs forehead* I was worried I was crazy for thinking this exact same thing.

[wh33t]

Btw, the nerd joke that Angel made. Who is Jade/Jane Gerrick/Gerrid? I can't quite make out the exact name, but it's something along those lines.

[Hellbringer]

Btw, the nerd joke that Angel made. Who is Jade/Jane Gerrick/Gerrid? I can't quite make out the exact name, but it's something along those lines.

He's the original Flash from the comics. A couple of people brought that up earlier, but it's buried way in this thread. I have to admit that if you don't get to read the thread everyday, it becomes a huge undertaking to sift through. Had to do that a couple of episodes ago myself.

[wh33t]

He's the original Flash from the comics. A couple of people brought that up earlier, but it's buried way in this thread. I have to admit that if you don't get to read the thread everyday, it becomes a huge undertaking to sift through. Had to do that a couple of episodes ago myself.

Well, the forums used to email me every time someone posted something new. But for some reason on these big episode discussion threads it often 'forgets' too. I even checked my junk mail, nothing from the We're Alive forums in there either.

Thanks for clearing that up! KC and Angel are both super nerds. Rad.

Back on Topic:
I just re-listened to the episode. Riley doesn't sound like a culprit to me. When she is mentioning the radio she seems genuinely panicked. What did she do before? Wasn't she a chef? Doesn't seem like someone with out any kind of background experience in acting or being an undercover could pull off something so swiftly, yet there is still a lot of evidence that points to her. I should go check out the "Who's the Rat thread", maybe there has been some developments there.

[7oddisdead]

/\hmmm.. Interesting. Who could have those skills..I'm actually asking. Out of the people we know, who seems a good "actor/actress "

[Ryan]

Yeah, I'm not saying anything against that. I'm just saying that it's funny how trust is brought up like one scene after Michael had embedded in his mind that Bill was the rat.
It was Burt who brought up trust and I think it was done more in the sense of "someone you trust to cover your back and not try to run off".

I think the big problem with Riley as the assailant is Pipin recognized the shooter and there was never really time for her to be in the Maller camp to be recognized.

But who knows, maybe there was some one-off meeting. With Lizzy being held by the Mallers it's possible there's some level of blackmail going on here. You could then reinterpret Riley's little bout of alcoholism as being caused by guilt rather than her crush on Lizzy.

[7oddisdead]

Whoa.... What if "it's you" is based on a person being described to pippin. Not someone he's seen...not the "contact" he's been looking for... But someone he's heard is a dead women if scratch gets a hold Of her...( I know it's crackpot, but that would be kinda wild)

[bob]

Not convinced on Riley or really any of the choices for that matter. She was an original so there's no way she was planted, and after that I'm not convinced there was a whole lot of alone time where she could be turned by the mallers, even if it was some sort of blackmail situation.

I'm also saying no way on Victor as well. The dude is so new he doesn't even know what the hell is going on.

If it was Kelly, and the theory of Pippen not knowing who the rat is, just knowing there is one, why kill him? If she has become loyal to the tower it would be much easier to some how expose him for what he is (a new attempt at a mole) than to draw massive amounts of heat upon herself by shooting him.

And Louis? We really don't know enough about him to make any real speculations.

I'm leaning towards a darkhorse, don't know who but I'm not super convinced of any of the four main suspects.

[Jeebogs]

I've been thinking about the whole Lewis being a patsy idea, and I'm kinda thinking it may be flawed.

If someone is motivated enough to elaborately get Angel out of the guard room, somehow get hold of the silenced pistol (are we overlooking that this person may have had a silenced pistol all along without letting anyone know?) and, as has been pointed out, murder Pippin quite professionally, what is to say they don't give a flying proverbial about Lewis taking the rap for them? I mean, if I were the shooter and I were trying to protect my identity and go as far as shooting the guy that might point the finger at me, I think I might just let Lewis take the fall in order to have a chance at staying with the tower and not get booted out. He is, after all, just the guy with the over-sized shirts.

Are Michael et al hoping that the shooter is going to go crazy with guilt?

[clarkie]

People saying Riley has not motive are missing the point. As far as we are aware, she didn't even know Pippen was at the tower, never mind in the guard room. A quick look at the rota would tell her Steven should be in there. Now she DOES have a motive to kill Steven - Lizzie.

I said this in the other thread (and this would only apply if she's the rat): She goes in there drunk, with a gun, expecting to find Steven, sees Pippen instead and realises he recognises her. She panics and shoots him.

[kafu288]

It didn't sound like a panic shooting though. It sounded like it was calculated

[mascaria]

...sees Pippen instead and realises he recognises her. She panics and shoots him.

Recognizes her from what though? The Riley is the Rat/Shooter theories are based on a whole lot of speculation that has absolutely no basis in anything we've heard in the series.

[clarkie]

I admit that there are a few things going against the Riley theory, but unless I've completely mis-interpreted the "It's you", pretty much every other main character can be ruled out.

I can say one thing for sure, though. All of this speculation is making me so excited to find out who it actually is. :D
If we don't find out on Monday I might actually die...

[mascaria]

Cause Of Death: Suspense

I really don't know that we'll find out on Monday. I think it'll be part of the season finale.

[Rock Daddy]

Cause Of Death: Suspense

I really don't know that we'll find out on Monday. I think it'll be part of the season finale.

I have to agree with you here. This seems like perfect Season 2 finale fuel. I think the suspense will keep mounting up and the finale will be a life and death situation where the rat is revealed, and it's unclear if they can be trusted.

[j0be]

Just for reference, we still haven't revisited the arena since the explosion...

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

At this point I still think the possibility of Riley being the assassin is slim (at least in my opinion). I can find a motive as to why she would do it, and as kafu288 said it seemed to be a calculated act. Not to mention that whoever the assassin was also shot the radio, unless that was an attempt to throw off who had actually assassinated Pippin in the first place.

Also Riley was an original of the tower, as bob had mentioned before, and associating herself with the Mallers would put the tower in jeopardy, something that she wouldn't want to happen since it would compromise her safety as well the others in the Tower (and if we are going the Riley-Is-A-Lesbian angle, then Lizzie's safety as well).

Motive wise, I can't see Riley deliberately killing Pippin and shooting the radio. I also have a hard time believing that it was a drunkin' killing either since it would have taken Riley more than the three shots the assassin used to take out Pippin and the radio.

[7oddisdead]

thats a good point the radio is a somewhat small target for an intoxicated person to hit, an englishman however...?. thers just so many different angles to sift through its quite maddening

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

thats a good point the radio is a somewhat small target for an intoxicated person to hit, an englishman however...?. thers just so many different angles to sift through its quite maddening

A person is easier to hit than a radio, but three shots for both? UNLESS Riley wasn't intoxicated at all and was only pretending to be (although I seriously doubt that she was faking it, since she was really broken up about Lizzie being kicked out).

But yeah there are plenty of different angles 70DDISDEAD, but we'll have to wait until the next episode. =D

[7oddisdead]

waiting....what is this...waiting you speak of....:)

[clarkie]

Cause Of Death: Suspense

I really don't know that we'll find out on Monday. I think it'll be part of the season finale.
Mmmmm, that's what I fear.

Although admittedly that would be a pretty awesome finale.


On another point, the fact that Riley was there from the start doesn't mean she can't be the rat. We don't know how the rat came to be, so it's possible that she was bribed or blackmailed upon some contact with the mallers long after the first episode.

[7oddisdead]

A person is easier to hit than a radio, but three shots for both? UNLESS Riley wasn't intoxicated at all and was only pretending to be (although I seriously doubt that she was faking it, since she was really broken up about Lizzie being kicked out).

But yeah there are plenty of different angles 70DDISDEAD, but we'll have to wait until the next episode. =D

a point arthur just brouht up over on the folllow the silencer thread id like to expand a bit on. would riley have still been drunk? michael made a point to state that the incident happened around noon. for one, we rarely get specific times told to us. for two, that would mean the entire night and morning has passed since her episode one the roof..so unless she started again early........

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

a point arthur just brouht up over on the folllow the silencer thread id like to expand a bit on. would riley have still been drunk? michael made a point to state that the incident happened around noon. for one, we rarely get specific times told to us. for two, that would mean the entire night and morning has passed since her episode one the roof..so unless she started again early........

Sounds like that would probably be the case. But who knows, maybe she's lying? I still doubt it, but until it is proven it is or isn't her, the jury is still out.

[7oddisdead]

agreed...im still holding out for kalani...but the more i think about it ..just seems like a tease "oh look, hes still in the tower,...he's a witch, burn him!"

[clparson]

I have a hunch it is Angel. I would have to go back and listen to the past couple of episodes to provide adequate evidence, but I just know in my gut that it must be Angel. He knows Scratch, though he won't admit it. He knows how to hot wire cars. He was the last one to see Pippen alive. How ironic would it be that ANGEL was the rat and the murderer? I know KC has an excellent sense of irony. Just saying...

[bequita]

...but I just know in my gut that it must be Angel. He knows Scratch, though he won't admit it. He knows how to hot wire cars. He was the last one to see Pippen alive. How ironic would it be that ANGEL was the rat and the murderer? I know KC has an excellent sense of irony. Just saying...

I have no clue who the shooter is, but I do think Angel is my best pick for rat. He was so quick to say, "the same one from before" that it almost sounds like he's deflecting attention from himself more than anything. He could have been bitter for not being picked to lead the tower and had a change of heart after the MRE incident.

See, the thing about Angel is he's shady. Not just the Scratch stuff, but this stuff about Cindy, too. I don't think Cindy was his girlfriend. Why would you lie to Datu and be like, no I have no reason to know you, if you were dating a girl in the building, unless you weren't really dating her and were just stalking her. She was in that other guy's apartment and Datu sounded like that was to be expected. Seems more reasonable that ANGEL IS A LIAR. HE LIES. WITH NO BOUNDARIES. AND IS A RAT.

but not a shooter.
idk, the shooter could be something even farther off in left field like Scratch. Did they check the building up and down? How do we know the Mallers/Liz aren't in the area already. The arena blew up, what, a day or two ago in WA time?

just saying.
:)

[7oddisdead]

See, the thing about Angel is he's shady. Not just the Scratch stuff, but this stuff about Cindy, too. I don't think Cindy was his girlfriend. Why would you lie to Datu and be like, no I have no reason to know you, if you were dating a girl in the building, unless you weren't really dating her and were just stalking her. She was in that other guy's apartment and Datu sounded like that was to be expected. Seems more reasonable that ANGEL IS A LIAR. HE LIES. WITH NO BOUNDARIES. AND IS

just saying.
:)[/QUOTE]

About this: it did seem kinda shady, could it be that angel was a boyfriend " on the side" like datu "shouldn't" have ever seen him....

[bequita]

Sure. Or he is a creeper.

Ps. Great episode, as always.

[Ryan]

I have a hunch it is Angel. I would have to go back and listen to the past couple of episodes to provide adequate evidence, but I just know in my gut that it must be Angel. He knows Scratch, though he won't admit it. He knows how to hot wire cars. He was the last one to see Pippen alive. How ironic would it be that ANGEL was the rat and the murderer? I know KC has an excellent sense of irony. Just saying...
Except he couldn't have cut the alarm wire.

[clparson]

Except he couldn't have cut the alarm wire.

Couldn't the wire have been cut for a while? When Michael was yelling at Angel to turn the alarm off, he said he couldn't because it was wired into the guard room. That means there is obviously an on/off switch in the guard room. The switch could have been flipped off and the wire cut while Angel was on guard duty at some point. Then, to make the alarm go off, he just had to be sneaky and flip the switch on.

[Don Man]

I liked this episode but i think that we arent going to find out the rat till the end of this season

[Osiris]

Jesus... who has the cliffs for this 20 page clusterfuck?

[Grognaurd]

Osiris,

The Butler did it...

[Osiris]

Sweet. All caught up now.

[Ryan]

Couldn't the wire have been cut for a while? When Michael was yelling at Angel to turn the alarm off, he said he couldn't because it was wired into the guard room. That means there is obviously an on/off switch in the guard room.
Well, on off switch. I find it unlikely because:

1) Pipin would have likely seen him,
2) Angel was working with Hope at the time,
3) It sounded like he had to roll his chair over to the console which means he wasn't by it at the time, and
4) Angel was interrogating Hope pretty damn hard after the shooting.

[COsurvivor]

Any reason why it cannot be Riley?

[Hellbringer]

At this point, I half expect a "Clue" ending for the season finale. I can totally hear Angel going "One plus two plus two plus one."

[7oddisdead]

Jus gonna throw this out there... But where has pegs been in all this?

[Grognaurd]

We do not have any information regarding Pegs' location. With the exception that she did not do guard duty, because Michael had her doing something else. I can game out a scenario that Michael has the silenced Pistol and guess that Pegs had access to Michael's stuff.

But, IMHO She is reading some sort of Flying for Dummies refresher. Kalani probably did not have time to go get one between the time Michael asks him about flying and "Now". I just suspect that he may have picked it up himself earlier. Since Kalani had "a few ideas" about possible other pilots he most likely has had a conversation with her at some time before she went South.

[7oddisdead]

i see we are kind of on the same wavelength....its seemed a bit unusual to have her nowhere around during this entire pippin 'situation". its difficult to speculate on who shot pippin when one of the suspects is completely missing in action. somehow thats been glosse over this whole time....
at this point we know more of stevens opinion of pippin then we do hers.....agreed about the flying for dummies bit :)

[MrScott101]

Well I read the first 5 pages and then determined that I just don't have the time to catch up on the other 16 pages. I did see that someone pointed out that Riley was in the stairwell which was something I was also going to point out. However in order to reek like the night before more than a splash of alcohol is going to do it. There was no mention of whether she smelled like that in the stairwell and she could have easily just went and hit the bottle afterwards.

I'll admit I didn't think she was a suspect but I'm starting too. As with Lewis being the fall guy, hmmm I did say that I thought the rat was someone we didn't know yet, what if it turns out he really is the rat. Honestly it wouldn't be that difficult to just act like a nerd to gain trust or ignorance. I think it would a very good possibility and good story twist if in fact it turns out that it was him.

[7oddisdead]

So... I just( somewhat drunkenly). Ran through a holiday inn. From the fith floor down to the forth went to a door at the far end... Waited the roughly ten seconds it takes to take out pippin. The. Ram down to the parking lot in roughly twenty seconds give or take. Now while I'm not as heavy set as I used to be.... I am a smoker and def. Buzzed at the moment. Was listening to this chapter to be sure I had the timing right...

So before the weekend and the next chaPter.... I stand by my kalani flag... And I'll go down with this ship... Ahab out

[Hellbringer]

So... I just( somewhat drunkenly). Ran through a holiday inn. From the fith floor down to the forth went to a door at the far end... Waited the roughly ten seconds it takes to take out pippin. The. Ram down to the parking lot in roughly twenty seconds give or take. Now while I'm not as heavy set as I used to be.... I am a smoker and def. Buzzed at the moment. Was listening to this chapter to be sure I had the timing right...

So before the weekend and the next chaPter.... I stand by my kalani flag... And I'll go down with this ship... Ahab out



hilarious!!!

[7oddisdead]

Got some funny looks. Was awesome. Again.... Ahab (passing) out....:)

[ICTerify]

Another good episode. Cannot wait until next week.

[mascaria]

Got some funny looks. Was awesome. Again.... Ahab (passing) out....:)

You, sir, are brilliant.
Thank you for conducting the experiment.

[Magrat]

Without actually getting simulation training or in the cockpit co-piloting, It'll be interesting to see how well Pegs actually manages to fly the second bird, assuming they get a working second bird!

[Grognaurd]

Ahab??? Damn, I know they said he was heavy with at least some caucasion blood, but he is not THAT big. Do not set the chimney a fire just yet.

[7oddisdead]

Arthur...sorry. Ahab is my adventurous, slightly buzzed alter ego..and I'm not saying kalani is a huge dude. Simply that I'm sure I'm in better shape than he...but you do bring a good point. Kalani was described as being almost Caucasian in appearance, and if you look up what kalani means in hawii it means "heaven or sky"...not sure if that was on purpose or not. But ....dunno...(scratches head)

[Grognaurd]

I was just kidding capt Ahab was after Moby Dick. In pop culture the patron saint of striving for things out of reach. Kalani becomes the white whale Moby Dick. If captain Ahab was to catch md then he would have to stand and plunge his harpoon (with your) flag into the back. I will not go into detail but I used a term that is whaler slang for well use your imagination if you want. Sorry, I tend to overanalyze everything without even trying and I think in parables.

[7oddisdead]

Wow didn't even make that connection...even being a huge herman Melville fan....

[ZombieMama]

Couldn't the wire have been cut for a while? When Michael was yelling at Angel to turn the alarm off, he said he couldn't because it was wired into the guard room. That means there is obviously an on/off switch in the guard room.

Well, on off switch. I find it unlikely because:

1) Pipin would have likely seen him,
2) Angel was working with Hope at the time,
3) It sounded like he had to roll his chair over to the console which means he wasn't by it at the time, and
4) Angel was interrogating Hope pretty damn hard after the shooting.

1> Pipin wouldn't necessarily know what he was doing. We don't know if Pipin knows how the control's work or what is what.
2> Vocally. We don't know how close he was to her at all time
3> He could have just turned around, or that could have been Hope's chair. Again, we're not sure because it was just sound
4> Makes sense then. That he would question Hope hard enough till she said something that put the blame on him, and then he would rebuttal it. Like if he was trying to see what she knew before Michael got to ask her.

Now I'm in the Kelly/Riley is the rat+/-shooter theory, but This brought up a really good point. I'm going to have to listen to everything... all over again... hahaha

[Grognaurd]

Arthur...sorry. Ahab is my adventurous, slightly buzzed alter ego..and I'm not saying kalani is a huge dude. Simply that I'm sure I'm in better shape than he...but you do bring a good point. Kalani was described as being almost Caucasian in appearance, and if you look up what kalani means in hawii it means "heaven or sky"...not sure if that was on purpose or not. But ....dunno...(scratches head)

Oh, I forgot to include this. Sky == He is a pilot. I find a lot of great authors use double entendres in names. Tolkein was full of them

[7oddisdead]

Oh, I forgot to include this. Sky == He is a pilot. I find a lot of great authors use double entendres in names. Tolkein was full of them

yes. I know this. So do people who are trying to pass themselves off as a Hawaiian pilot to a bunch of mainlanders...all I was saying.. :D Give me a lil credit...:)

[Grognaurd]

oh yea, Kalani is on your person of interest page. I am going to stick with my follow the silencer, but it did seem that kalani was Burt's right hand man and may have had access to the bag before Burt left the tower. Maybe Kalani took the silenced MP5 from Victor. Given that the Mallers happened to show up the day after he did is interesting. He also, as far as I currently remember, did not shoot any of the mallers and was sober.

But... paraphrasing and removing some time

Hey new guy, want a drink?
I do not drink?
Wanna Dance?
That I can do.
----
Put your hands here.

Not a perfect alibi, but I did find the exchange humorous. Even with Zombies running amuck, life goes on...

[7oddisdead]

So very true. I'm keeping an open mind about this whole thing.just staking my claim to someone, but your follow the silencer thread has my eye on pegs as well....too many variables to factor in... I guess this will be carried on to the next chapter in what...hour and a half?...

[Grognaurd]

Yea. I will be incomunicado for a while. I will not have a block of time to listen to it. If I am at my keyboard, I will pull up the forum, I will go ah, just a little bit of spoiler wont hurt and it is down hill picking up speed from there.

ENjoy

[mem]

"I've been thinking about the whole Lewis being a patsy idea, and I'm kinda thinking it may be flawed."


Jeebogs, mrs mem and i had issues with this as well. Pointing out that over sized shirt guy did it will lead to mob justice and him getting DED ! Also the actual shooter (and possible rat) would do everything in his/her power to fuel this mob justice. What a great way to cover their tracks.

[Wicked Sid]

Would the residents of the Tower be attached to Pippin enough to murder Lewis for retribution?

I think not. He was more of an extra benefit/hinderance rather than a truly valuable asset to the Tower.

[Jeebogs]

It's not so much the retaliation to poor Lewis, it's more the fact that whomever did the shooting, just has to keep their head down, and they get away with it scott free.

[Magrat]

I don't think the shooter is going to slip up any time soon. They've been incredibly careful not to get noticed too much, but still leaving hints (ie, radio set at the maller channel, hope staying alive) so the rest of the people know someone is still there, gleefully playing a cat-and-mouse game.

[mem]

It's not so much the retaliation to poor Lewis, it's more the fact that whomever did the shooting, just has to keep their head down, and they get away with it scott free.

very good point

[Jeebogs]

Not if they put a trap well planned, they could concoct a story leaving gaps that could be filled by the guilty part triyng to pin the crime to Lewis...

Like I said, all the shooter has to do is sit their hands and hey presto.


...or leave some hint that if he's not the murderer he should be in a position to know, and wait for the shooter to pull a "Jack Ruby".

I can't see this would work, the whole idea of 'convicting' Lewis is to prevent panic. If they go and say, "we've got this guy, and we think it's him, but if it's not, he might know who it is....."
Kind of counter productive. They need everyone to believe Lewis did it so a panic doesn't start.

[tillvictory]

I know I'm really late to the game, but no one else I know is listening and I gotta get something off my chest..

It is driving me NUTS that Hope heard Pippin recognize the shooter, and even if she didn't hear it (which makes no sense) or doesn't remember for some reason (okay, she might be in shock), Michael and Angel decided he was killed because the shooter knew Pippin would recognize them, and they STILL haven't thought of ruling out everyone that he already saw... how can they suspect Kelly when she helped interrogate him AND spent 6 hours with him. He wouldn't have recognized her by then?

[Kc]

I know I'm really late to the game, but no one else I know is listening and I gotta get something off my chest..

It is driving me NUTS that Hope heard Pippin recognize the shooter, and even if she didn't hear it (which makes no sense) or doesn't remember for some reason (okay, she might be in shock), Michael and Angel decided he was killed because the shooter knew Pippin would recognize them, and they STILL haven't thought of ruling out everyone that he already saw... how can they suspect Kelly when she helped interrogate him AND spent 6 hours with him. He wouldn't have recognized her by then?

That's the question... how would he recognize that someone? Details not yet known in the story at Chapter 22...