Chapter 22 - "Our Doubts Are Traitors" - Part 1

[j0be]

Here's that thread!

[kafu288]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-LbvFckptY

[Hellbringer]

I've lost track of all time lately and totally forgot this was coming out today. Guess I'll save that Tech News Today podcast for later. This takes priority!!!

[j0be]

I'm still listening, but man, Burt is off his game.

[kafu288]

you mean the voice work or his aim?

Edit: nevermind its the aim

[j0be]

you mean the voice work or his aim?

His aim. If you haven't listened yet, it's pretty obvious plot point.

[kafu288]

yeah I'd just started listening when I posted that

[j0be]

Damn. you. KC. You get me every time.

Waiting here to post spoilerish stuff until people have a chance to listen.

[kafu288]

Damn. you. KC. You get me every time.

Waiting here to post spoilerish stuff until people have a chance to listen.

that finish just completely changes my pippen is helping the traitor theory. God damn it. I'm not going to post anything too spoilerish. PROMISE

[COsurvivor]

The title says it all...

I assume the killer was also at the last tower... Why do I feel it was STEVEN!!!

I hope Hope is not dead... I still hold out Hope!

[j0be]

that finish just completely changes my pippen is helping the traitor theory. God damn it. I'm not going to post anything too spoilerish. PROMISE

Even though this thread is normally spoiler central, I'm just going to wait for a little while. There is no way I want to ruin this for anyone.

[COsurvivor]

Did you see my thread??? I gave something away, but DAMN this was a great episode!!!

I cannot wait for the parts 2 and 3!!!

[j0be]

Did you see my thread??? I gave something away, but DAMN this was a great episode!!!

I cannot wait for the parts 2 and 3!!!

I saw, and for now I placed spoiler tags around your content. Not really a policy or anything, just a temporary thing.
And I am counting my weekdays now.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Poor Burt and his psychosomatic issues.
I'll hold off on my comments for a min as well.

[Kc]

Um... I'd say spoil away-

[kafu288]

you might want to spoiler tag this then...

Oh snap! what a twist. my prediction right now: the shooter is not the rat. the shooter just took a huge risk to get rid of Pippen. a) the shooter could very easily have been caught and outed themselves and b) they just made shit a hell of a lot harder for themselves and now anything that they want to do is going to be extremely hard. Considering that, as far as we are aware anyway, the rat has not acted against the tower for a while, I don't think they would take such a drastic step all of a sudden. Unless the theory that Pippen's family was held hostage actually applies to the Rat and Scratch just wanted to get rid of Pippen.

[HardKor]

I don't actually know what crack is like, but I'm sure this show is the closest I've ever come to the experience. I get my little ~20 fix every Monday then spend the rest of the week with the shakes waiting for the next fix!

Great episode, infuriatingly great actually. Guess I should hold off until people have had their chance to listen before starting the obvious speculations.

[kafu288]

if you reallly want to know what crack is like go listen to the gamespy debriefings. I don't know what episode but there's one where they discuss the effects of crack on people in their own special way.

[Ra1th]

ohmygod, they fucking killed Hope! Is she dead? shot? wounded?

[fraggot]

Good lord that was a good episode, mainly the last couple of minutes. Even Pippin seemed surprised when he saw who it was, we better find out something on the next episode or I will personally light this website on fire. I'm kidding of course, just gaaaaaaaaah cliffhangers are evil!

Good work on this one, it's nice to see(hear) that tenseness again. I literally stopped working for a couple of minutes once the alarm starting going off and Angel ran to Burts Armory.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Um... I'd say spoil away-

LOL.. well, if'n you say so!

1. How the hell is Burt's armory secured? It's either the same person who originally got into his locker at his shop and arrived with Kelly and Tommy or....

F'n Angel: Ra1th, you're boy is an Idjit! We have a brand new jittery Butter Bar running around here and he keeps Sir'n me. I'm going to start calling him "Angel" (in my head LOL).

Why the hell isn't Pippin in a different room by the way? Same room as the monitors? That's just asking for.. well, it's asking for what happened.

Steven? Sounds shady, sounds crazy obvious.

Whomever it was, they're fast as foxtrot or the alarm is slow as shiggity.

[HardKor]

I now find myself with the compelling urge to scream:
"Oh my God, they killed Pippin, You bastards!"
There said it. Feels good to get that out of my system.

[Arkum]

Cliffhanger to end all cliffhangers!

So many questions now. Can't wait till Part 2.

The shooter could be anyone who is unhappy about Pippen being there or the thought of him taking there spot on the heli. Oi too many options for my mind to filter just yet.

And that "Oh its you" line from Pippen is such a mindjack.

KC strikes again I suppose

[rottenash]

wow i can pretty much say i know who the rat is 99.9% sure of it.. best cliffhanger EVER! hurry up next week!!!

[Boomstick]

So what we know:
Traitor has access to the armory
Traitor is someone who pippen hadn't seen before.

So who does that elminate: Kelly, Angel, Michael, Saul, Bert, Victor(even though this should be obvious). Who could it still be: Pegs, Riley, Datu, Kalani

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Bruce,

why do you think Pippen "Didn't" recognize the shooter? He says "oh, it's you!"
oh, and one last thing.. Burt and Saul sure could'a used a Crowbar this epi. Bwaahahah ahahah!

[Acidicvision]

I don't think Hope is dead. I know it doesn't really help the suspension of disbelief, but killing the blind girl who's mother was tortured by Zombies at this point just doesn't make sense. If anything, I think maybe the shooter was someone closer to her that shot and wounded her to avoid suspicion.

The shooter was also using the silenced pistol that was missing from Burt's bag. So who had access to the bag between the time they packed everything and the time they left? Wasn't Saul's Mom messing with the bag when she was packing the medicine for him?

Also, where did you all pick up on another traitor? I thought it was the land-lord. Wasn't he the one who stole weapons, ammo, food and notified the maulers over the radio? Did I miss something where they figured out he wasn't really the traitor, or that there was another one?

[Boomstick]

Bruce,

why do you think Pippen "Didn't" recognize the shooter? He says "oh, it's you!"
oh, and one last thing.. Burt and Saul sure could'a used a Crowbar this epi. Bwaahahah ahahah!

No, I think he did recognized the shooter, whom we assume is the traitor. What I meant was, that pippen hadn't seen the shooter since getting to the tower. So from his encounters with the other tower folk since getting there he hadn't seen him/her. So by that fact, we can eliminate some of the characters as the traitor.

[Osiris]

ibshooterisablindgirl

[kingisback]

Best episode ever. Why does it take so long no we have to wait to see how the traitor is, but wow so great. It has to be some one thats good with a gun. One other thing i really think we may lose a major character so one is going to die.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

No, I think he did recognized the shooter, whom we assume is the traitor. What I meant was, that pippen hadn't seen the shooter before since getting to the tower. So from his encounters with the other tower folk since getting there he hadn't seen him/her. So by that fact, we can eliminate some of the characters as the traitor.

ahhhh.. gotcha. I agree. It rules out the main characters with the exception of Pegs. I'm on my 4th listen and I'm getting madder at Angel each time. Well, at least Hope didn't get double tapped like Pippin so there's a chance she can survive.

[Rock Daddy]

DAMN another great episode! OK so...
1) Burt is no longer Superman!
2) More and more "New" people are popping up amongst the Towerfolk - But Steven is still a doosh.
3)Pippen's accent doesn't matter anymore. LOL -- He either knew his killer from the maller group, or it was someone who recently met him while on guard duty. (hint-hint)
4) They might be able to repair this chopper, but now Burt & Saul lost contact with the crew.
5) Hope got shot!!! But I hope it's not fatal. Or.. Maybe they shot the tower's RADIO
. That's why Burt and Saul can't hear them. YES! That's it!!!
PS: Did anyone get a "Simpsons" flashback. "Who Shot Mr. Burns?" Mr. Burns walks behind the alley and goes, "Oh, It's you!" and then he gets shot. LMAO Well, I thought of it.

[Acidicvision]

^^ They shot the radio. Nice catch. That makes perfect sense. I think the shooter was Saul's mom. She was the only one I recall messing with the bag before Saul and Burt left. So she's the only one that could have taken the silenced pistol out.

[Rock Daddy]

and ALSO...
The silenced pistol that was missing from Saul & Burt's bag... Was what was used to kill Pippin and shoot the Radio. ;)

--NEVERMIND You guys caught that! :)

[Arkum]

I hope it isn't Sauls mom, I was just starting to trust woman again...

[nikvoodoo]

Also, where did you all pick up on another traitor? I thought it was the land-lord. Wasn't he the one who stole weapons, ammo, food and notified the maulers over the radio? Did I miss something where they figured out he wasn't really the traitor, or that there was another one?

As you explore the forum more, you'll see how hotly contested the "Who's the Rat" theory is. Bill is who has been pinned with the responsibility as the thief, so the Tower assumes he was the one who called the Mallers. But that has never made any sense to most of us here. We all believe at most he's a thief and at the least, he was the patsy and had stuff planted in the elevator.

Now: HOLY MOTHER PUSS BUCKETS! That was perhaps the best 18 minutes ever. I swear I was just about to hop into this thread after the airport scene because it felt like it was the end of the episode. Man I was wrong!

I agree with Crowbar: Angel is damned stupid! Who in the blue hell leaves a blind girl alone with a man whom you don't generally trust? Turns out technically Angel was right because merry ol' Pippin wasn't a threat.

So who has Pippin had access to since coming to the Tower? Tanya, Michael, Datu, Victor, Kelly, Angel, Hope, and potentially Steven. So unless he knew them from before, he had to know this person. Anyone else would have been news to him.

Big bonus for those pointing out the nice plot tie ins and theories about the radio and silenced pistol. :)

[Grognaurd]

There are two silenced weapons. MP5 from the Colony and Bert's Beretta. Peg's has not been on guard duty. Gratuitous. So, it is important to the plot as a red herring or a piece of the puzzle. As an aside, if Hope has been killed the shooter is not likely a male. Hate to be crass, but a breeding age female is too important to lose when facing extinction.

Bill may have been the Hoarder or he may have been setup. A hoarder has lots of psycological problems. Could he steal everything and be so quick to give away his best booze?

The Rat does not have to be the Hoarder. They are two independent events. They could have been done by differenet people.

The Shooter. Again, could be independent events. But a case can be drawn for Rat/Shooter with a maller connection. A case can be made from Hoarder/shooter. The Shooter shot the prisoner and the blind girl. The hoarder could picture each as a drain on resources.

Alternatively, anyone of the above events could be a conspiracy with more than one resident. Burts armory goes off to investigate, but the shooter slips past.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Dammit! I just assumed that the silenced pistol was just another one from Burt's armory and not THE one from the bag.
So, it's the same one, then the alarm was simply a distraction to get numbnutts out the room. Boy did he take the bait!
That would explain why the person got into the room so quickly (or they had help).

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

[QUOTE=Arthur LaMarche;15918]There are two silenced weapons. MP5 from the Colony and Bert's Beretta. Peg's has not been on guard duty.

Thanks Arthur.

[ObamaCat]

Hoooooly shit. Fuckin' eh that was a good episode :D

So my thoughts on the episode:

1) Steven's a little bitch. I wouldn't be surprised if he's the rat since he didn't want to go on guard duty, giving him ample time to conduct his crimes.

2) So who's the rat? Saul and Burt can't be (out at LAX), neither can Datu or Kalani (also driving to LAX), Angel's good (checking the alarm), and it's not Pippen or Hope. So that leaves Victor, Kelly, Michael (I doubt it), Riley, Pegs (again I doubt it), Tanya, Steven, or a minor / unintroduced character. Steven and Kelly are my prime suspects.

[fraggot]

It's Hope, I know it

[nikvoodoo]

There are two silenced weapons. MP5 from the Colony and Bert's Beretta. Peg's has not been on guard duty. Gratuitous. So, it is important to the plot as a red herring or a piece of the puzzle. As an aside, if Hope has been killed the shooter is not likely a male. Hate to be crass, but a breeding age female is too important to lose when facing extinction.


Burt asked for the silenced pistol...it being missing is more than enough evidence for me. If he thought it was there and it wasn't I smell something fishy. The weapon used in the tower was a silenced pistol, not an mp5 for one other simple reason: Portability. If you're going in to assassinate someone, you'd probably want to be able to hide the weapon in question when you blend back in with the crowd. A submachine gun would make that task a little more difficult.

Hope not being shot by a male because she's an impregnable female I think is an invalid argument. Someone who just actively took out a target at great personal risk to themselves is not a person who could care less about their ability to procreate in the long run. If they really cared, they probably wouldn't have tried to shoot Pippin in the first place.

[Grognaurd]

NIce catch on teh shoot the radio. I am still trying to figure out that as a chess move. Loss of the radio reduces the chances that the tower can call for help. It appears there are at least two groups of two out there now. This must be weighed against the tower not answering the check ins? At best it is temporary problem (easily replaced from any of the rigs). So, the question to ask is what does the shooter hope to accomplish in the next hour or two?

[Acidicvision]

An MP5 is a sub-machine gun. The shooter used the Biretta. I would be disappointed in the crew if they made that type of audio mistake. That would be like having someone drive off in a V8 or Diesel and then later saying they were driving a hybrid. It would either be a retcon or deliberately misleading editing.

For the shooter you are looking for someone that:
a) knew Angel was with Hope and they were on guard duty.
b) had access to the armory and knew it would lure Angel away.
c) has attachments to the tower crew or else shooting Hope would have been easy.
d) had access to the gear bag to take the silenced pistol.

Pippen saying "you!" I can't concretely say is telling one way or another. He could have been reacting to someone he recognized and had not yet seen there, like others have said. Or maybe he was reacting to someone he did see there that came into the room pointing a gun at him.

The only noticeable hole I see in my observation is the speed that everything happened. As soon as that alarm went off, Angel was gone. Just a few seconds later the shooter walks in. Unless this person possesses super-human speed, theres no way the same person that triggered the alarm is the one that shot pippin and the radio. There was a very careful plan there that had to involve more than one person. One to cause the distraction and one to go in, take out pippen, and get out before Angel got back.

[Rock Daddy]

NIce catch on teh shoot the radio. I am still trying to figure out that as a chess move. Loss of the radio reduces the chances that the tower can call for help. It appears there are at least two groups of two out there now. This must be weighed against the tower not answering the check ins? At best it is temporary problem (easily replaced from any of the rigs). So, the question to ask is what does the shooter hope to accomplish in the next hour or two?

I think the Mallers got wind of the helicopter plan from the rat, and it is not good. I also think the team on the road (Kalani & Datu?), trying to help Burt & Saul is now in grave danger.

[Acidicvision]

NIce catch on teh shoot the radio. I am still trying to figure out that as a chess move. Loss of the radio reduces the chances that the tower can call for help.

I'd wager it didn't have anything to do with calling for help. The Mallers are currently blowing up the Hive and dealing with whats there. I don't think they are planning an assault on the tower. I think that the shooter disabled the radio because Datu rigged the building so Hope could call anyone from anywhere. Remember Angel saying he hooked up Audio for her all over the place so she could do guard duty and call for help or alert people when needed? If the shooter left the radio, Hope could have pushed a button and the calvary would have come running, so the shooter wouldn't have had time to make a clean get-a-way.

Whoever it was didn't want to kill her. But couldn't have her calling for help.

[nikvoodoo]

The only noticeable hole I see in my observation is the speed that everything happened. As soon as that alarm went off, Angel was gone. Just a few seconds later the shooter walks in. Unless this person possesses super-human speed, theres no way the same person that triggered the alarm is the one that shot pippin and the radio. There was a very careful plan there that had to involve more than one person. One to cause the distraction and one to go in, take out pippen, and get out before Angel got back.

It means one of two things: There are two people working together which I still don't like, but at this point I've given up figuring out who because I want to be surprised.....but I do wonder right now if NJhellfire is in a corner crying because Kalani isn't in the tower and there's some rat like activities going on...or the person who set the alarm off ducked into an adjacent room/around a corner after they set off the alarm. Once Angel ran into the room to investigate (thus putting him out of sight of this hidden rat) they simply walked down the hall and popped a cap in Pippin's ass...or head..whatever.


I'd wager it didn't have anything to do with calling for help. The Mallers are currently blowing up the Hive and dealing with whats there. I don't think they are planning an assault on the tower. I think that the shooter disabled the radio because Datu rigged the building so Hope could call anyone from anywhere. Remember Angel saying he hooked up Audio for her all over the place so she could do guard duty and call for help or alert people when needed? If the shooter left the radio, Hope could have pushed a button and the calvary would have come running, so the shooter wouldn't have had time to make a clean get-a-way.

Datu rigged the guard room for audio so Hope could listen and assist those who were watching, there was no mention of her being able to call help throughout the building. The intention was for her to never be left alone. *SHOOTS ANGEL THE STINK EYE....and thus also to ra1th*

[Grognaurd]

Granted The missing Berreta is a flag. If I have to guess I would say it is "burt's" But the silenced MP5 can not be discounted. Remember the MP in MP5 essentially means Machine Pistol. The silenced MP5 would have to be presented to Burt since it is from the colony. Michael, Victor, Kelly, Tanya, Hope or Pegs could have taken it as their own.

[Dino_Does_Zombies]

Although I believe the possibility of Angel being the Rat is extremely low, I just want to play the devil's advocate. Angel could have easily tripped the "Alarm" from within the room and pretend to go to Burt's Armory. Knowing Hope can't see a thing, he could have easily made it sound like he was leaving, but re-enter the room and shoot Pippen. I have always thought that Angel was insecure about always being in Michael's shadow...could drive some people insane. Just throwing this out there.

Do I believe Angel is the rat? No, but I could be wrong. I cannot even come close to comprehending the genius that is KC... =)

Please don't flame me

[Rock Daddy]

Although I believe the possibility of Angel being the Rat is extremely low, I just want to play the devil's advocate. Angel could have easily tripped the "Alarm" from within the room and pretend to go to Burt's Armory. Knowing Hope can't see a thing, he could have easily made it sound like he was leaving, but re-enter the room and shoot Pippen. I have always thought that Angel was insecure about always being in Michael's shadow...could drive some people insane. Just throwing this out there.

Do I believe Angel is the rat? No, but I could be wrong. I cannot even come close to comprehending the genius that is KC... =)

Please don't flame me

It's a very valid point. I thought this might be a possibility, but I am now too much of an Angel fan, and it hurts to think of that option. LOL

[Bulldog711]

kelly being a lawyer could have sneakily been interrorgating/cross examening Pippen, had uncovered a HUGE flaw is his stories and realized he was an immediate threat and/or Michael and co would never believe her. I really doubt that Hope was killed as we didnt hear her body hit the floor like we did with Pippen; again, KC is a smart cookie and wouldnt leave out that key sound effect.

It is awfully odd that Steven is introduced so late in the story......obviously he has been introduced for a reason.

We all think Pippen was brought to the Tower....probably was told to perform a specific task but in truth he was put there as a catalyst to disrupt the tower and keep them busy with in fighting. What I mean is it was scratch/Durai's plan to place a survivor in there to be killed by the rat to create turmoil and a witch hunt in the tower to prevent them from disrupting Durai's master plan

[Acidicvision]

What is the level of rat-titude or paranoia are we looking at here? If Pippen had said a name instead of just "you" do you think the shooter would have killed Hope?

[nikvoodoo]

kelly being a lawyer could have sneakily been interrorgating/cross examening Pippen, had uncovered a HUGE flaw is his stories and realized he was an immediate threat and/or Michael and co would never believe her. I really doubt that Hope was killed as we didnt hear her body hit the floor like we did with Pippen; again, KC is a smart cookie and wouldnt leave out that key sound effect.


I agree Hope wasn't shot, and I really like the radio option. But as the cliffhanger to the episode, the reason the SFX of a body not dropping is because the episode ended at the moment the shot was fired. It wouldn't have been forgotten, it would have be left out on purpose so we have to listen next week to see if Greg Miller got his wish.

Seriously, Greg! what you got against the kids in this show??


What is the level of rat-titude or paranoia are we looking at here? If Pippen had said a name instead of just "you" do you think the shooter would have killed Hope?

I bet if he had said a name, there'd be no question. Hope would have to die because she could identify who it was. As it is, she might already be able to ID the person by something she heard anyway. Could be a huge strategic error by our Rat not to kill the blind girl who can hear better than most people can.

[Dino_Does_Zombies]

I agree with you Rock Daddy... It would hurt too much

[Arkum]

Are MP5's adjustable form full auto to single shot?

Also if it isn't Angle coming back into the room (I like that theory a little) then the shooter is someone who didn't want to kill Angel as they could have easily just walked in, shot Angel, shot Pippen, shot the radio and left. Riley perhaps...

[kingisback]

Hope was not shot (no proof) you hear nothing that says that she's hurt. The shooter is the traitor. The reason the shooter is the traitor is because if Pippen was to meet the traitor the person may be found out. The traitor had to step his/her game cause of Pippen. The traitor may try to disappear again and thats going to suck cause we may have wait to find out how it is till the next chapter.

[Grognaurd]

Nik, I can go back a listen again, but I thought I hear feet scamper away. Light small steps. But, hey I have been wrong on a lot of things 8 )

[Bulldog711]

[QUOTE=nikvoodoo;15936]I agree Hope wasn't shot, and I really like the radio option. But as the cliffhanger to the episode, the reason the SFX of a body not dropping is because the episode ended at the moment the shot was fired. It wouldn't have been forgotten, it would have be left out on purpose so we have to listen next week to see if Greg Miller got his wish.

QUOTE]

Sorry nik.....but the episode ends with the killer running out of the room....no sound of Hope hittin the floor

[Grognaurd]

Arkum, I do not know. I am not too much of a gun lover. I just know that the stock is collapsable, so it is smaller than a carbine, but longer than the pistol. If I have to guess I would think single shot, three round burst, full auto(?)

[nikvoodoo]

Nik, I can go back a listen again, but I thought I hear feet scamper away. Light small steps. But, hey I have been wrong on a lot of things 8 )

You do hear feet scamper away. You're not imagining. and they were indeed light small steps and that could quickly imply a woman, or a man who was trying to be light on his feet to sneak past Angel who was still in the armory probably trying to figure out what, if anything, had been stolen.



Sorry nik.....but the episode ends with the killer running out of the room....no sound of Hope hittin the floor


Oh blah blah to you and your rightness. Fine, here, I'll propose another reason: She doesn't have to fall because she's sitting in a chair and she didn't fall when she was shot she just slumped over! There! :p

I still don't think she was shot. :p

[Bulldog711]

Light feet? ITS SKITTLES!!!!!

just kidding

[Bulldog711]

TOUCHE VOODOO! Although, Hope is BLIND not DEAF! If she wasnt shot she sure has the balls not to react in any audible way to the 3rd shot!

[Rock Daddy]

You do hear feet scamper away. You're not imagining. and they were indeed light small steps and that could quickly imply a woman, or a man who was trying to be light on his feet to sneak past Angel who was still in the armory probably trying to figure out what, if anything, had been stolen.



Oh blah blah to you and your rightness. Fine, here, I'll propose another reason: She doesn't have to fall because she's sitting in a chair and she didn't fall when she was shot she just slumped over! There! :p

I still don't think she was shot. :p

HA HAH! Nik, you just pulled a Kc moment there, and wrote yourself back into being right. LMAO

[nikvoodoo]

TOUCHE VOODOO! Although, Hope is BLIND not DEAF! If she wasnt shot she sure has the balls not to react in any audible way to the 3rd shot!

I dunno about you man, but if I heard someone get shot next to me and I wasn't able to see the killer because I'm blind, I think the only suitable reaction I could come up with would be to pee my pants. :p


HA HAH! Nik, you just pulled a Kc moment there, and wrote yourself back into being right. LMAO

It's a gift ;)

[Kc]

HA HAH! Nik, you just pulled a Kc moment there, and wrote yourself back into being right. LMAO
I write myself back into being right? ;)

[Rock Daddy]

I write myself back into being right? ;)

Oh yeah! Just when we think that a plot theory is not even an option or that we found a loophole, BAM! You wriggle out of it, like Houdini! LOL

[Kc]

Oh yeah! Just when we think that a plot theory is not even an option or that we found a loophole, BAM! You wriggle out of it, like Houdini! LOL
Not always. The eye thing was a clear mistake and the floor number- BUT if there's something that's not clear, I love hearing from you guys so I can clarify-

[j0be]

Not always. The eye thing was a clear mistake and the floor number- BUT if there's something that's not clear, I love hearing from you guys so I can clarify-

You know what I'm pissed that I just realized? You hinted on Friday that Hope was going to die or something like that during the Cast Chat. But of course I didn't catch it then.

j0be (http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/member.php?696-j0be)

[WestonWisdom]

If it turns out that Steven is the traitor, I will feel cheated, there is no way we could have figured it out, and it would make all the theorizing for naught.

Also, I guess this means I am sorry Ra1th, but he is still a douche :)

[Bulldog711]

I'd say Burt is the next main character to be killed.....he will go down in a blaze of glory once they find Lizzy.....he will get hurt, and will attract the zombies to give lizzy, saul, bricks, and tardust a path to get away......Also it seems as though the zombies are still milling around, potentially waiting to pounch.

[WestonWisdom]

Also, Am I going crazy, or did I hear sniffing in the final scene, Does this mean...... Lady is the traitor?

[BoomerXL]

The only thing that sucked about that episode was that it ended....great episode, what a way to set up the rest of the chapter. I can't wait to find out who the shooter was.

[nikvoodoo]

You know what I'm pissed that I just realized? You hinted on Friday that Hope was going to die or something like that during the Cast Chat. But of course I didn't catch it then.

Didn't someone say they were going to compile the chat into a pdf or something so those that missed it could still read through the logs of the chat? I would heart me some of that since I missed it!

[itsallgoodie]

everything i had has been covered by now, the things i think are important to cover are that its not Kalani, and that it must have been two people working together, the alarm had to be a distraction. The shooter cant get from point A to point B that fast. I think the idea that the radio was shot is clever but there is another chance that maybe when saul and burt called in to the tower was after hope had been shot or killed but before anyone finds out and thus there was no answer. There isnt really a way to know one over the other. Im sad Pippen is dead. I thought he could be a big character. I am pretty sure that either hope or pippen will have survived. One of them has to be alive to have a person to follow and see who the shooter was.

If pippen, then it may be pippen's word against the shooter, if the shooter is a big character that everyone thinks is good then who knows, maybe they wont believe him.

If hope, then obviously she wont have any more than audio to go off of and that wont help the tower much at all.

I do think that angel or someone will catch who broke into burts shop (assuming that it was a pair who hatched the plan to do the shooting, one breaks into the shop and the other kills hope and/or pippen) that way they have a new person to watch, kill, interogate, ect.

I dont think I left anything out.

[Kc]

You know what I'm pissed that I just realized? You hinted on Friday that Hope was going to die or something like that during the Cast Chat. But of course I didn't catch it then.
Did I?

[Pikepaw]

So Burt has grief induced shakes, Pippin is a good conversationalist and likes to read. I'm not convinced Hope is dead, many things could have happened. I'm scared she might be though and Pippin sounds pretty dead. Didn't expect him dying so soon. Steven seems a likely suspect to kill him. At least we know why Saul and Burt didn't have the silenced pistol. I think it is too early for either Pippin or Hope to die in terms of their character developments, so WTF on that one.

I love how it worked that I felt as blind as Hope at the end, it worked really well. But I don't want her to be dead. Otherwise I'm going to jump into audio world and strangle this traitor personally. PERSONALLY! That is, if Datu doesn't get them first. Loved the episode, but the ending was very much, "WHAT THE HECK?!" of course since we don't know what fully happened...

[Grognaurd]

If hope, then obviously she wont have any more than audio to go off of and that wont help the tower much at all.

.

Smell. Victor has heavy cologn. In addition, when water is at a premium, people can develop their own Body Order. Not everybody stinks the same so to speak.

[Ryzilient]

Wow it's been a while since I've posted here.

Very very intriguing episode. So we learned that Burt suffers mildly from some sort of post-traumatic stress disorder; we know that neither Burt nor Saul nor Kalani are 'The Rat'; and also that we may have lost two supporting characters in the space of a minute of air time.

We can assume that our traitor has access to the Armory or something that would trip the alarm, which is unlikely to be everybody. The silenced shots may mean that whoever took the pistol took it from Burt and Saul's bag since they couldn't find it.

First one in a while that's making me nervous about what happens next.

[itsallgoodie]

Smell. Victor has heavy cologn. In addition, when water is at a premium, people can develop their own Body Order. Not everybody stinks the same so to speak.

oh oh oh oh oh oh oh your right, if it was victor that would make sense, cuz they did mention how much victor smelled. but one would think that he would have thought that through a bit more. maybe he tries to kill both hope and pippen but dont have time to make sure they are dead and one is alive and can recall the smell. ^_^ i bet thats what it is. good catch.

[nikvoodoo]

everything i had has been covered by now, the things i think are important to cover are that its not Kalani, and that it must have been two people working together, the alarm had to be a distraction. The shooter cant get from point A to point B that fast.

They are in an apartment building with rooms throughout that entire hallway to hide in. They wouldn't have to do much to set off the alarm and then hide in a room near Burt's armory. Angel would have to investigate to make sure they weren't robed blind like last time and while he's doing that it allows someone the time to go into the guard room and pop off a few shots and run away. Doesn't automatically mean there are two people working together. Does that mean there aren't two people working together? Nope. I'm just sayin' is all.

[Rafar]

Now that caught me off guard. Listening to Pippin's accent convinced throughout the show pretty much convinced me that he was a fake (weaving between Cockney barrowboy and Public schoolboy was just too random to be bad voice acting) so my surprise was doubled by the ending.

The question is, how can you have "Pippin was a plant" and "The Rat killed Pippin" both true? What do the Mallers gain by killing Pippin in the tower? I am guessing that "Dropping Pippin off" was Latch's way of saying "Beat the hell out of him and leave him within crawling distance of the Tower" but what does that achieve anyone?

Plus, at least Burt only has a psycosomatic illness. My first though was Parkinsons and that he was running out of his drugs. He can get better from the former, returning him to his proper place in the badass pantheon.

[Arkum]

Haven't they said Hope isn't totally 100% blind? She may know more than we originally think about the shooter

[itsallgoodie]

They are in an apartment building with rooms throughout that entire hallway to hide in. They wouldn't have to do much to set off the alarm and then hide in a room near Burt's armory. Angel would have to investigate to make sure they weren't robed blind like last time and while he's doing that it allows someone the time to go into the guard room and pop off a few shots and run away. Doesn't automatically mean there are two people working together. Does that mean there aren't two people working together? Nope. I'm just sayin' is all.

I dont know how far away or how many floors away the armory is from the guard room but i would say that odds are(like the number of rooms and floors say that chances are they arent on the same floor) If they are then you argument holds water but if they arent then how fast could you get from one floor to another, in the episode it happens in a matter of seconds. Thats not really possible unless they were like three rooms apart.

[Leedo2502]

Frickin' Steve is the Rat! First off that's why he didn't want to guard Pippin because he'd recognize him instantly... there is no evidence that Steve guarded him prior to this moment. AND that's why ol' Steve felt "Uncomfortable doing his job with him in there".

I'd say that chances are that they weapon used was the Baretta otherwise why have Burt and Saul comment about the 9 being missing from the bag. But the MP-5's do have Singe shot 3 Round burst and full auto on their selectors.

I'm giving Angel a pass for leaving his post, the threat was to the armory and Pippin was chained up and no threat to Hope at all. Angel did the right thing in going to secure the armory.

[Rafar]

Could be a huge strategic error by our Rat not to kill the blind girl who can hear better than most people can.

Don't want to get picky, but visually impaired people can't hear any better than sighted people.

Think about it, no-one thinks that deaf people get great eyesight, do they?

[nikvoodoo]

I dont know how far away or how many floors away the armory is from the guard room but i would say that odds are(like the number of rooms and floors say that chances are they arent on the same floor) If they are then you argument holds water but if they arent then how fast could you get from one floor to another, in the episode it happens in a matter of seconds. Thats not really possible unless they were like three rooms apart.

When Angel opens the door to investigate, the alarm gets louder so that's why I think they're on the same floor and just down the hall. It's the same setup they had in the first incarnation of the guard room. The store/armory/guard room were all on the same floor just down the hall from each other.


Haven't they said Hope isn't totally 100% blind? She may know more than we originally think about the shooter

Correct, she's not totally blind. She can see "almost nothing but enough to help" (19-1 ~3:00) t I think the best she can see is blurs.


Don't want to get picky, but visually impaired people can't hear any better than sighted people.

Think about it, no-one thinks that deaf people get great eyesight, do they?

People who lose one of their senses can compensate for the loss by heightening their other senses. In this case, going blind can (but not necessarily does) increase ones hearing. Scientifically speaking (http://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/blindness-and-better-hearing/), Hope's hearing would not be as precise as a child who was born blind. But that's not to say she didn't develop a stronger sense of hearing since she's been put back into the hunter/prey situation of a zombie apocalypse.

[Acidicvision]

The cologne makes me think of the old survivor trope. Both people in the room were shot but one is found barely alive. Now the shooter has to take a risk getting in and finishing the job before the character can recover and talk, only to be caught by our heroes who are lying in wait, knowing he will show up.

I'm glad the writer(s) have been more creative than that so far, because that would be a very disappointing conclusion.

[itsallgoodie]

When Angel opens the door to investigate, the alarm gets louder so that's why I think they're on the same floor and just down the hall. It's the same setup they had in the first incarnation of the guard room. The store/armory/guard room were all on the same floor just down the hall from each other.

Ok then you are right, it could totally be one person. Thats kinda bad planning on Michaels part. hmm then i think you are right its pretty much a toss up between a one person job and a two.

[Leedo2502]

And to answer the whole "Why act now" question... Pippin was sure to be released soon or Steve would run out of excuses and have to go into the guard room at some point and be exposed to Pip. So the options are wait it out and get caught or act now and maybe try to take out Pippin.
I wouldn't be supprised if maybe who ever the shooter is (STEVE!) sprays a bit of cologne in the room to throw them off his scent so to speak (Pun intended) and put them out to distrust Victor... Maybe alluding to the tittle of this chapter "Our Doubts Are Traitors".

It'd be pretty sweet for Kelly to go into full bore Lawyer Mode to sniff out the rat in defense of her potential love intrest and maybe get Victor to get a little sweet on her in return.

Oh and I forgot to mention... Frickin' awesome episode KC!!

[AdrianHD]

The way Pippin says, "it's you" makes it sound like he hasn't seen the person. Otherwise, what makes their appearance now any different from before? I'm thinking they pulled out the gun after walking in.

Victor has no reason to be the shooter. Neither does Tanya. I'd feel cheated if the rat was Steven, this is only our second time hearing him. It could be Riley, she was drunk and aggressive last we heard her.

[kingisback]

Think about people he says "It's You" he knows how it is. If you know the person, what else would you say if theres a gun pointed at you?

[WestonWisdom]

Ok then you are right, it could totally be one person. Thats kinda bad planning on Michaels part. hmm then i think you are right its pretty much a toss up between a one person job and a two.

Even so, we have seen that using the balconys to navigate from floor to floor is a viable option, meaning it could have been on the floor above, and the shooter could have dropped down onto the balcony, not passing Angel on the way and shooting Pippin.

[Bulldog711]

KC uses everything.....the small comment from Michael about the cologne will come back....great pick up there on the cologne/Hope connection.

I still think Pippen was brought to the tower to be killed by the rat to help ignite in-fighting

[nikvoodoo]

Ok then you are right, it could totally be one person. Thats kinda bad planning on Michaels part. hmm then i think you are right its pretty much a toss up between a one person job and a two.

I think the set up makes perfect sense. After all, if all that stuff is located near the person who is responsible for guarding the Tower they'd also be keeping an eye on their stockpiles of stuff.

[itsallgoodie]

I think the set up makes perfect sense. After all, if all that stuff is located near the person who is responsible for guarding the Tower they'd also be keeping an eye on their stockpiles of stuff.

I guess but you dont want to put all your eggs in one basket. or all the pressure on one person...

[Jeebogs]

So our very own Dick Van Dyke buys the farm, but whodunnit?

Ok, So, best guess?

Saul's Mother - nope she patched him up when he first arrived so he would have seen her and known she was there.

Steven - Although I would like for it to be him (he is a first class nob) he says that Pippin "creeps him out", so I'm assuming he's spent time with him.

Pegs - I believe a candidate as Victor states that Pegs "skipped out on guard duty" already, and I don't think there was any other time that she came into contact with Pippin.

Riley - Maybe, she was pretty miffed that Lizzy had been cast out, would have knowledge of the Maller's taking her and would have reason to get Angel (Mr I'll just leave the vulnerable blind girl) out of the room.


All that said, I don't think the shooter is the rat. Someone, misguidedly, thinking Pippin is a spy, decides to take the law into their own hands. After all, "Our Doubts are Traitors"

Is hope dead? TBH, I don't care. I don't think her character was going anywhere anyway and as equally as we didn't hear her body fall to the floor, we also didn't hear the tell tale "PTfzzzz" of the radio getting shot.

Question, now that there's been a reshuffle of the Tower since the 'War' how far from the guard room is the armory?

[WestonWisdom]

I guess but you dont want to put all your eggs in one basket. or all the pressure on one person...

On second thoughts, it does appear foolish to not at least have a camera inside the armory, seeing as the residents still believe they have a rat in their midst, furthermore, the armory and the watch tower on the same floor makes it easier for a potential rat to get from one to the other without being caught, However, this would also mean it would be easier for the watchman to arm themselves in the case of an attack.




Steven - Although I would like for it to be him (he is a first class nob) he says that Pippin "creeps him out", so I'm assuming he's spent time with him.


It also provides the perfect reason to not be seen by Pippin until he is ready.


Pegs - I believe a candidate as Victor states that Pegs "skipped out on guard duty" already, and I don't think there was any other time that she came into contact with Pippin.


Pegs didn't skip out, Michael didn't want her in there.



Riley - Maybe, she was pretty miffed that Lizzy had been cast out, would have knowledge of the Maller's taking her and would have reason to get Angel (Mr I'll just leave the vulnerable blind girl) out of the room.


If her motive was to get Lizzy back, she would have tortured Pippen, at least, thats what I would have done.

[Leedo2502]

When Angel opens the door to investigate, the alarm gets louder so that's why I think they're on the same floor and just down the hall. It's the same setup they had in the first incarnation of the guard room. The store/armory/guard room were all on the same floor just down the hall from each.

I was under the impression that they had wired the Armory alarm to set off an alarm in the Guard Room

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

After listening to the episode twice, it would seem that Steven is the likely candidate to be the rat, considering he probably hasn't been seen by Pippin yet and Pippen would probably identify him as one of the Mallers. Although reading all these theories leave me with doubts about how accurate it is.

Also interesting note by "Jeebogs"


All that said, I don't think the shooter is the rat...

I wouldn't be surprised if it the rat had anything to do with the shooting, or perhaps it was the rat trying to keep his/her identity a secret by assassinating Pippin (the last shot could have also been to make sure that Pippin was dead, no necessarily to kill Hope).

OR
5) Hope got shot!!! But I hope it's not fatal. Or.. Maybe they shot the tower's RADIO
. That's why Burt and Saul can't hear them. YES! That's it!!!

Great point Rock Daddy, I didn't even think of that and it makes a lot of sense.

Whoever it is, it couldn't have Kalani since he was in a car with Datu on the way to the airport to meet Saul and Burt. And Datu couldn't have been under gun point because of the way he responded to Kalani telling him to turn the "music" down.

(Probably going to edit this later, gotta get the laundry.)

[Arkum]

Steven seems to obvious. Like he came back this episode to throw us off from the real shooter.

[WestonWisdom]

Steven seems to obvious. Like he came back this episode to throw us off from the real shooter.

It does seem obvious, and I really have hope that Kc has planned this well enough to be placing hints before Steven's introduction.

[nikvoodoo]

Along this line of thinking, can we just take a moment to recognize how beautifully crafted this whole thing is? How many times do you watch a movie or read a book and you are this up in the air this far into the game about a mystery? Not only do we still not know who dunnit, we can barely eliminate anyone from contention, AND we can't even say for certain how many people are involved....

...or even if it is related to the same thing! We don't even know for certain if the shooter is the rat! I'm stealing a catchphrase: I'm lovin' it!

[WestonWisdom]

...or even if it is related to the same thing! We don't even know for certain if the shooter is the rat! I'm stealing a catchphrase: I'm lovin' it!

Perhaps you can explain, why is so little emphasis being put on Pippen's recognition of his shooter?

[rottenash]

Maybe the oringinal rat has now sided with the tower. Scratch said she had not heard from the rat in a long time. The original rat was worried that he/she was in danger of being outted. Kablamo Pippen! because he/she knew why he was sent there.

If Hope is dead, that means the shooter was not from the tower at all. Everyone there knows Hope is blind, no need to kill her.
-Hope is alive

The one thing thats bothering me is the shooting of the radio..why? tower attack? or to just throw a curve ball to destroy communications..this only means that the mallers will not be able to know whats going on either. You'd think the radio was a benefit to them.

[Dameon1213]

Goddamnit I knew who it was! The second he made Lizzie feel guilty! I fucking knew it!

[Leedo2502]

Steven seems to obvious. Like he came back this episode to throw us off from the real shooter.

Or maybe that's what KC wants you to think LOL!

Seriously though I think he came back in this episode to shoot Pippin in the face

[Teleportingtaco]

If Hope is dead, that means the shooter was not from the tower at all. Everyone there knows Hope is blind, no need to kill her.
-Hope is alive

Well we don't know if everyone in the tower knows Hope is blind.

[Leedo2502]

Along this line of thinking, can we just take a moment to recognize how beautifully crafted this whole thing is? How many times do you watch a movie or read a book and you are this up in the air this far into the game about a mystery? Not only do we still not know who dunnit, we can barely eliminate anyone from contention, AND we can't even say for certain how many people are involved....

...or even if it is related to the same thing! We don't even know for certain if the shooter is the rat! I'm stealing a catchphrase: I'm lovin' it!

Hell yeah Nik I agree with like 75% of this post (with the eception of the last line). I've already listened to this episode 2 times already and plan on going beck to where Stevie boy makes his first appearence to listen again.

But yeah the 25% I disagree with is that we know that the Rat is the shooter because if memory serves Steve was adamant about booting Lizzie and maybe thats why Tardust and Bricks knew who she was (Steve giving the mallers a BOLO on Lizzy after she got the boot). If there is another Rat I'd be supprised...

[smalls kenobi]

i think at one point, Kelly was the traitor. after Tommy's death she had a change of heart, so she stopped contacting the mallers. so the mallers send in pippin as a backup. once kelly got some alone time with pippin in the guard room, she then questions him to see if he's there to spy, or if his story about him escaping is true. she then finds out he is there to spy, she's been on guard duty for a while, she had more than enough time to come up with a plan. listening to pippin's final words, he seemed surprised at who and what that person was doing. it would make sense for it to be the person he had the long talk with.

[Leedo2502]

i think at one point, Kelly was the traitor. after Tommy's death she had a change of heart, so she stopped contacting the mallers. so the mallers send in pippin as a backup. once kelly got some alone time with pippin in the guard room, she then questions him to see if he's there to spy, or if his story about him escaping is true. she then finds out he is there to spy, she's been on guard duty for a while, she had more than enough time to come up with a plan. listening to pippin's final words, he seemed surprised at who and what that person was doing. it would make sense for it to be the person he had the long talk with.

Damn not a bad idea there!

[clparson]

OMG! I can hear Datu freaking out already. *SMH*

[Bulldog711]

That was one of my original ideas after listening to this....she is a lawyer after all so a cross examination could prove handy here

[clparson]

i think at one point, Kelly was the traitor. after Tommy's death she had a change of heart, so she stopped contacting the mallers. so the mallers send in pippin as a backup. once kelly got some alone time with pippin in the guard room, she then questions him to see if he's there to spy, or if his story about him escaping is true. she then finds out he is there to spy, she's been on guard duty for a while, she had more than enough time to come up with a plan. listening to pippin's final words, he seemed surprised at who and what that person was doing. it would make sense for it to be the person he had the long talk with.

That may be true, but Pippin already knows Kelly's name. Wouldn't he be like, "No, Kelly!" and so on?

[Leedo2502]

That may be true, but Pippin already knows Kelly's name. Wouldn't he be like, "No, Kelly!" and so on?

Well that wouldn't be very dramatic would it LOL

[Teleportingtaco]

Well at the end of the episode he says "It's you" in kind of and uncomfortable voice, and since Kelly was so nice to him you would think he would be more happy sounding.

[Grognaurd]

I think Pippen first recognizes "The shooter", but maybe does not see the firearm (most likely, the silenced berreta). Pippen's voice goes up in pitch when the weapon is raised and pointed at him. Pippen is shot multiple times.

Pippen recognizes his contact
1) The rat (He knows the person, but is surprised because he was not told there was a rat)
2) The rat (but he knows there is a rat)
3) Another tower resident he already knows (someone he has gotten along with and is surprised to see the gun, Kelly, victor, who knows)
4) Pegs (the woman he was to capture for Scratch

There is a delay and then another round is fired.

1) The Radio (no electronic failure sound)
2) Hope (Is the shooter really that cold hearted?)
3) Pippen (One more for good measure.)

So, why is Pippen there?
1) Did he really escape? (Scratch was going to drop him off. Pippen screwed something up and Scratch beat the bejessus out of him)
2) Restore contact with the rat. (Maybe there was no contact after the war. The mallers would not know if their rat was still alive)
3) Reinforce the rat (another assault, but more of a trojan horse)
4) Kill the Rat (not everything has to make sense)
5) Capture Pegs (If Durai will not spend the resources to take out the tower after the last debaucle, maybe Scratch initiates this for revenge)

[Jeebogs]

Perhaps you can explain, why is so little emphasis being put on Pippen's recognition of his shooter?

Perhaps Pippin's "It's you!" was merely him recognizing that the traitor everyone is banging on about, does actually exist, and is the person with the silenced gun in his face.

Maybe.

[clparson]

Well that wouldn't be very dramatic would it LOL

You are correct, sir. But it would be delivered in the nice, neat little package that KC seems to hate so much. I can dream, can't I? Seriously, though, I thought the cliff hanger was awesome!

[clparson]

It was Angel, damn it! LOL

[Teleportingtaco]

It was Angel, damn it! LOL
If you can say that then I say Samantha killed her!

[Rock Daddy]

i think at one point, Kelly was the traitor. after Tommy's death she had a change of heart, so she stopped contacting the mallers. so the mallers send in pippin as a backup. once kelly got some alone time with pippin in the guard room, she then questions him to see if he's there to spy, or if his story about him escaping is true. she then finds out he is there to spy, she's been on guard duty for a while, she had more than enough time to come up with a plan. listening to pippin's final words, he seemed surprised at who and what that person was doing. it would make sense for it to be the person he had the long talk with.

This is my favorite explanation so far, and it supports my belief that Kelly was the rat, but decided to have a change of heart, and wants to hide her past actions. Nicely said! :)

[zombiederek]

That may be true, but Pippin already knows Kelly's name. Wouldn't he be like, "No, Kelly!" and so on?

I agree with this he would have shouted out her name if she were getting ready to shoot him. I'm putting my money on Richard (is that his name? The one who didn't want to watch him in the first place?) It would be a brilliant move by the writers because it makes sense and it doesn't cost any of the characters that we have come to love any respect or integrity by being a traitor. It also makes the most sense in the story, he creates a big stir by getting Lizzy kicked out, therefore dividing the best fighters in the tower, then he refuses to watch over Pippin, who would instantly recognize him for who he is. By being able to go somewhere else, he is able to set himself up to sneak back to the monitor area and pull the trigger. I also believe that he knew full well that Hope would be the one who would replace Kelly, making his deception all the more easy to accomplish.

[nikvoodoo]

Hell yeah Nik I agree with like 75% of this post (with the eception of the last line). I've already listened to this episode 2 times already and plan on going beck to where Stevie boy makes his first appearence to listen again.

But yeah the 25% I disagree with is that we know that the Rat is the shooter because if memory serves Steve was adamant about booting Lizzie and maybe thats why Tardust and Bricks knew who she was (Steve giving the mallers a BOLO on Lizzy after she got the boot). If there is another Rat I'd be supprised...

Hey, you don't have to agree, but there has been more than one person on here saying the shooter and the Rat aren't the same person. I happen to think they are the same. I was just pointing out how well crafted the story is :)

[clparson]

I agree with this he would have shouted out her name if she were getting ready to shoot him. I'm putting my money on Richard (is that his name? The one who didn't want to watch him in the first place?) It would be a brilliant move by the writers because it makes sense and it doesn't cost any of the characters that we have come to love any respect or integrity by being a traitor. It also makes the most sense in the story, he creates a big stir by getting Lizzy kicked out, therefore dividing the best fighters in the tower, then he refuses to watch over Pippin, who would instantly recognize him for who he is. By being able to go somewhere else, he is able to set himself up to sneak back to the monitor area and pull the trigger. I also believe that he knew full well that Hope would be the one who would replace Kelly, making his deception all the more easy to accomplish.

If it were Richard, I would feel completely cheated. It wouldn't be fair because he was an out-of-left-field character. I don't want my respect for the main characters that I think I know to be reserved. I want my trust in them to be shattered in the most brutal way!

[fairyfartz]

How possible is it that Hope was regaining her vision but kept quiet about it?
If it's possible she wasn't shot and didn't die, is it possible she was the shooter?
It wouldn't be that hard to fake being partially blind (hell, I had everyone at work convinced I couldn't hear the pitch the phone rang at for almost 2 years). Who would suspect a young partially blind girl?

Of course, next week we'll find out she was shot and I'll be wrong.

[nikvoodoo]

How possible is it that Hope was regaining her vision but kept quiet about it?
If it's possible she wasn't shot and didn't die, is it possible she was the shooter?
It wouldn't be that hard to fake being partially blind (hell, I had everyone at work convinced I couldn't hear the pitch the phone rang at for almost 2 years). Who would suspect a young partially blind girl?

Of course, next week we'll find out she was shot and I'll be wrong.

Odds of her spontaneously regaining her sight: Slim. The physical impact caused enough damage to her eyes that she went blind. That sort of damage requires surgery to repair. Is it possible her body fixed itself? Yeah, but it's not likely.

It's certainly possible she was shot and didn't die, but she would have to have been shot in an area where she wouldn't scream, cry or make any sounds at all. And I don't think she could be the shooter.

I think if it came down to faking being blind, or admitting you have eye sight to stay in the Colony which is the safest place you would have found up until then.....I think I would drop the act and pitch in if I could. And if it was still an act, once she left the colony with people she trusted I think that would be a good time to drop it too.

I hope she wasn't shot. I think that would be sad to let Greg Miller get his way and kill off both kids in the show....heartless bastard! ;)

[clarkie]

Wow, wow, wow. First things first, from the title I think we'll find out that Pippen wasn't sent as a spy. Don't know why, but perhaps the fact that they doubted Pippen so much will be a big regret for the tower.

Another thing, clearly from his reaction Pippen knew who the shooter was, which suggests that it was the rat, but the way he said it suggest that it's NOT someone that he had met thus far in the tower i.e. Michael, Angel, Kelly, Datu etc. This would even rule out Steven, who would've been prime suspect for me.

I am glad that Pippen's gone. His accent was becoming unbearable. Going to go back and listen carefully now for any clues as to who the shooter was.

[clparson]

How possible is it that Hope was regaining her vision but kept quiet about it?
If it's possible she wasn't shot and didn't die, is it possible she was the shooter?
It wouldn't be that hard to fake being partially blind (hell, I had everyone at work convinced I couldn't hear the pitch the phone rang at for almost 2 years). Who would suspect a young partially blind girl?

Of course, next week we'll find out she was shot and I'll be wrong.

If that were so, it was a pretty risky move on her part, especially at the Colony. There would be no reason to keep her around. However, she has been blind for a good amount of time now. It is possible that maybe HOPE grabbed the gun they keep in the guard room (as I assume they still do) and fired towards the direction the shots were coming from. No one would expect a blind girl to pick up a gun and be able to fire it.

[Arkum]

I think if Hope just stood up and shot him that Pippen exchange with the shooter would have been different.

I'm putting my chips on Riley with really nothing to back it up but gut feeling and the fact that she spared Angels life

[mush_rooms]

After listening to the episode twice and reading through every page of this thread, here are my thoughts:

1.) I highly, highly doubt we're going to find out whodunnit anytime soon. We still don't know who the Rat is, and it's been how long? Bet you any money this is going to be an ongoing puzzle we won't figure out for awhile. At any rate, it doesn't even matter who did it. The Tower is going to be thrown into turmoil. Trust between people is really going to be tested now! Shit's gonna hit the fan.

2.) Also, no one can say for sure that the Rat/Shooter are the same person or that Pippin did/did not know the identity of the Shooter. It's ambiguous at this point, no matter how hard you argue that it's not! We still have to consider all the scenarios, yo!

3.) If anyone 100% figures everything out and it turns out their theory ends up being correct, I will go buy a hat and eat it. This is just proof of my faith that KC is going to rock our worlds with something insane and out-of-left-field. I'm not even gonna try to speculate. Jesus take the wheel! Lol.

[clparson]

So, what is up with Burt? Did he get infected from Saul? I think that because he has had more direct contact with Saul's body fluids (I meant blood, you sickos!), it isn't a long shot that Burt contracted whatever turns people into the "zombies". I think Saul has some kind of mutation or gene that prevents him from turning completely.

[clarkie]

Scratch some of what I just said. The shooter is Steven, it makes perfect sense. Him and Pippen never saw each other from what I can gather, so Pippen wouldn't have recognised him yet. Also, Steven was totally against going in with him, for 2 reasons - he didn't want Pippen to see him yet and it he would've had to have shot himself to avoid suspicion, if he was with Pippen when he got shot.

Looking back, it was Steven that basically forced Burt to kick Lizzie out. Clearly that was so that the mallers could get their hands on her. For me he's got to be the rat as well as the shooter.

(Hope this hasn't all already been said)

[clparson]

After listening to the episode twice and reading through every page of this thread, here are my thoughts:

1.) I highly, highly doubt we're going to find out whodunnit anytime soon. We still don't know who the Rat is, and it's been how long? Bet you any money this is going to be an ongoing puzzle we won't figure out for awhile. At any rate, it doesn't even matter who did it. The Tower is going to be thrown into turmoil. Trust between people is really going to be tested now! Shit's gonna hit the fan.

2.) Also, no one can say for sure that the Rat/Shooter are the same person or that Pippin did/did not know the identity of the Shooter. It's ambiguous at this point, no matter how hard you argue that it's not! We still have to consider all the scenarios, yo!

3.) If anyone 100% figures everything out and it turns out their theory ends up being correct, I will go buy a hat and eat it. This is just proof of my faith that KC is going to rock our worlds with something insane and out-of-left-field. I'm not even gonna try to speculate. Jesus take the wheel! Lol.

Your Falcons hat is in the mail. ;)

[clparson]

Scratch some of what I just said. The shooter is Steven, it makes perfect sense. Him and Pippen never saw each other from what I can gather, so Pippen wouldn't have recognised him yet. Also, Steven was totally against going in with him, for 2 reasons - he didn't want Pippen to see him yet and it he would've had to have shot himself to avoid suspicion, if he was with Pippen when he got shot.

Looking back, it was Steven that basically forced Burt to kick Lizzie out. Clearly that was so that the mallers could get their hands on her. For me he's got to be the rat as well as the shooter.

(Hope this hasn't all already been said)

Totally confused. I thought Richard was the one. But, of course, I am usually wrong. Well, if that is the case, I stand by my opinion that if Steven/Richard/Whoever that guy is ends up being the rat, I am going to throw a major BF.

[clarkie]

Totally confused. I thought Richard was the one. But, of course, I am usually wrong. Well, if that is the case, I stand by my opinion that if Steven/Richard/Whoever that guy is ends up being the rat, I am going to throw a major BF.
The one who wouldn't go in with Pippen is the same one that got Lizzie kicked out, right? Well, whatever his name is, I think he's the one that shot Pippen.

[smalls kenobi]

So, what is up with Burt? Did he get infected from Saul? I think that because he has had more direct contact with Saul's body fluids (I meant blood, you sickos!), it isn't a long shot that Burt contracted whatever turns people into the "zombies". I think Saul has some kind of mutation or gene that prevents him from turning completely.

Nah, I think its just his nerves. He said it himself that he had it once after his wife died. And that it started happening again BEFORE he shot Saul. So Nah, he just has The shakes.

[mush_rooms]

Your Falcons hat is in the mail ;)

Sweet, free hat! Not really a Falcons fan, but whatevs. There will be no hat-eating anyway, I'm so confident. Should I say...BLINDLY confident in KC? Eh? EH? Get it? XD

[Rock Daddy]

Nah, I think its just his nerves. He said it himself that he had it once after his wife died. And that it started happening again BEFORE he shot Saul. So Nah, he just has The shakes.

Agreed. I think that this also shows that he no longer has super human shooting powers, and is a vulnerable (and slightly less useful) character. But I feel this puts him in danger of becoming the next character to be killed. A tragic hero...

[clparson]

Nah, I think its just his nerves. He said it himself that he had it once after his wife died. And that it started happening again BEFORE he shot Saul. So Nah, he just has The shakes.

Thanks for clearing that up, I had forgotten his explanation. I wonder what brought them back...

[clparson]

Sweet, free hat! Not really a Falcons fan, but whatevs. There will be no hat-eating anyway, I'm so confident. Should I say...BLINDLY confident in KC? Eh? EH? Get it? XD

Ha ha. That was cornier than my great aunt's feet.

[HardKor]

Here's a question that just popped into my head: Assuming the missing silenced pistol is the same weapon used to kill Pippin (and maybe Hope). Why did the shooter steal it in the first place?
As I understand the timeline, Everyone packed up to attack the mall to try and rescue Lizzie, only to find the Mallers gone. Saul and Burt went to LAX to look for a helocopter while everyone else went back to the tower...THEN Pippin showed up while Saul and Burt were at LAX. So why did the shooter steal the gun? Was there some other plan, maybe disabling thee radio, maybe something else? Because if the gun was stolen before Pippin showed up, killing him couldn't have been the primary reason for stealing it.

[clarkie]

Yeah, just listened back and it's definitely Steven that won't go in with Pippen. Also looked in the wiki and it was him that got Lizzie kicked out. My theory still stands. He's the shooter and possibly the rat. :)

[smalls kenobi]

Agreed. I think that this also shows that he no longer has super human shooting powers, and is a vulnerable (and slightly less useful) character. But I feel this puts him in danger of becoming the next character to be killed. A tragic hero...

Yeah, the whole situation is just a slap to the face back to reality. to remind us all that he's still just human.

[Rock Daddy]

Yeah, just listened back and it's definitely Steven that won't go in with Pippen. Also looked in the wiki and it was him that got Lizzie kicked out. My theory still stands. He's the shooter and possibly the rat. :)

It could really be anyone, but I think Steven is a Red Herring, meant to raise suspicion and divert us from the real killer. But it's so damn confusing - It could be anyone! AAAhhhh!!!!

[nikvoodoo]

Here's a question that just popped into my head: Assuming the missing silenced pistol is the same weapon used to kill Pippin (and maybe Hope). Why did the shooter steal it in the first place?
As I understand the timeline, Everyone packed up to attack the mall to try and rescue Lizzie, only to find the Mallers gone. Saul and Burt went to LAX to look for a helocopter while everyone else went back to that tower...THEN Pippin showed up while Saul and Burt were at LAX. So why did the shooter steal the gun? Was there some other plan, maybe disabling thee radio, maybe something else? Because if the gun was stolen before Pippin showed up, killing him couldn't have been the primary reason for stealing it.

I suddenly care much less about the why. I suddenly care about the people who were in that rescue party at the Mall before the group split and who the potential assassin could be. The rescue group was just Burt, Saul, Michael, Riley, and Angel. Burt and Saul aren't in the Tower which means the only possibilities for someone who would have had access to the silenced pistol that's supposed to be in the bag and Pippin are Michael, Riley and Angel.

[clarkie]

It could really be anyone, but I think Steven is a Red Herring, meant to raise suspicion and divert us from the real killer. But it's so damn confusing - It could be anyone! AAAhhhh!!!!
Yeah, knowing KC I could be picking up on clues that are there to throw people off.

[mush_rooms]

It could really be anyone, but I think Steven is a Red Herring, meant to raise suspicion and divert us from the real killer. But it's so damn confusing - It could be anyone! AAAhhhh!!!!

I'm praying for a Clue-like episode where Michael and Angel creep around looking for clues and trying to figure out whodunnit. Like Sherlock Holmes and Watson. Bromance included. I'd be such a giddy little mystery-fan!

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

I'm praying for a Clue-like episode where Michael and Angel creep around looking for clues and trying to figure out whodunnit. Like Sherlock Holmes and Watson...

Oh at first I thought you meant like the 1985 Comedy film, "Clue." =P

Great Movie BTW ;)

[clparson]

If nothing else, we know that there is no way Saul or Burt could be the rat/shooter since they were not even at the tower. Also, those other two minor characters that were supposed to meet them can't be the rat/shooter either for the same reason. We know it can't be Hope. Of course, it wouldn't be Michael. He is our hero. It can't be Lizzie as she is still being held captive. It can't be Pegs because she hates guns. That leaves us Datu, Angel, Steven, Riley, or Kelly. Please reply if there are others I am missing from either list.

[nikvoodoo]

Oh at first I thought you meant like the 1985 Comedy film, "Clue." =P

Great Movie BTW ;)

Colonel Mustard: *after peaking his head into a room* Just checking!

Miss Scarlett: Everything all right?

Colonel Mustard: Yup. Two Corpses. Everything's fine.

(Just swap Mustard/Scarlett with Michael and Pegs ;))

[Rock Daddy]

Colonel Mustard: *after peaking his head into a room* Just checking!

Miss Scarlett: Everything all right?

Colonel Mustard: Yup. Two Corpses. Everything's fine.

(Just swap Mustard/Scarlett with Michael and Pegs ;))

Love that movie. "I'm the butler. I buttle sir." :)

[Blush]

I don't think Steven's the shooter. He just seems too obvious a choice.
I think having him refuse to work guard duty - which automatically set off some alarm bells - was an attempt to mislead us.

[zombiederek]

If it were Richard, I would feel completely cheated. It wouldn't be fair because he was an out-of-left-field character. I don't want my respect for the main characters that I think I know to be reserved. I want my trust in them to be shattered in the most brutal way!

I think I miss-quoted his name I believe its Steven. I was so excited to start posting after this episode I simply forgot his name! lol It would make a lot of sense for it to be him. He's been there the whole time we just haven't heard much from him until now. I really don't think it would make sense for a character like Kelly, or Angel to be a traitor because of all that they have done for the tower already. We all remember how freaked out Kelly was once she tried to leave the Tower the first time so I don't think that she would be too keen to have the Tower taken down, especially by a bunch of murderous criminals. And Burt, as well as Michael, Angel, Saul and even Datu have too much integrity for a betrayal of this magnitude. I would even go so far as to say that it would seriously hurt the overall story if one of these characters happened to be the traitor. I would accept one of their deaths with a heavy heart, but I could never believe that one of them would ever have it in them to betray their friends and those they brought in to protect. A character like Steven however, has no real moral compass, as we saw with the Lizzy incident. At one point it appeared that he even wanted to take over as leader until he was put in his place by Burt. It would make sense that he would be scared enough to talk to the Mallers and strike a deal with them to benefit his own needs. I also believe that Pippin was not working with the Mallers, but was in fact a living signal to Steven as a way to let him know that his strike was to begin.

[Jeebogs]

I think that the obvious choice is to put the gun in Steven's hands. But that's just it, it seems too easy. Too obvious.

[mush_rooms]

Love that movie. "I'm the butler. I buttle sir." :)

I also love this movie, dearly in fact. If there were an episode like THAT...oh man. Lol.

There are two plot templates in movies/books/etc that I will never tire of...murder mysteries and elaborate heists. If there is ever a heist episode in We're Alive then life will be complete.

[cupcakezombie]

Can anyone fill in the Datu timeline? I feel like we are missing something there. He was reported to be on the roof, downstairs getting tools, and then supposed to be on the road. If they were on the road, how long do we think they had been out? Is it just that Michael forgot where he was when he sent Steven up to find him? I am re-listening now myself, so will probably have the answer in a few, but think that it is worth putting here.
Thanks

[zombiederek]

Can anyone fill in the Datu timeline? I feel like we are missing something there. He was reported to be on the roof, downstairs getting tools, and then supposed to be on the road. If they were on the road, how long do we think they had been out? Is it just that Michael forgot where he was when he sent Steven up to find him? I am re-listening now myself, so will probably have the answer in a few, but think that it is worth putting here.
Thanks

There's no way that it was Datu. His love for Samantha would keep him from harming Hope, and it sounds like the shooter put one in her forehead, by how it sounded like it was one shot and then a body hit the floor. Besides, Angel knew where he was anyway as he corrected Michael on his whereabouts. The only person who can be unaccounted for at the time of the shooting is Steven.

[Dameon1213]

Listen to the episode's end again, the pistol is silenced, i don't think the shooting is bad, nor do i think Pippin is truly bad, there was a theory saying he was an assassin, and i didn't think of it at first but now i get it, he is there to kill the traitor, why? Because he is no longer of use to the mallers, i think that when Burt realized "the nest" was not going respond, he ran as quickly as they could back to the tower, seeing the situation, i think it was Burt who shot. like i said the pistol was suppressed and last i checked, they only have one, unless K.C infers that when they went back to Burt's shop, he had more suppressors. Also if that is not true, i think that they had more then on suppressor, and Steven shot Pippin knowing why he was there and who sent him.

[StickUpKid]

I dont know if anyone said this didnt read all 16 pages but maybe:

1.Its victor he may have the silenced berreta that burt and saul cant find
2.I was thinking durai because they havent mentioned where he is, but how would he get in.
3.Maybe some random person sent to kill pippen didnt know hope was blind gatted her down to (if thats what it was)
4.The rat killed pippin so as not to get his cover blown

Did the shooter run away afterwards? i thought i heard footsteps

[mush_rooms]

Can anyone fill in the Datu timeline? I feel like we are missing something there. He was reported to be on the roof, downstairs getting tools, and then supposed to be on the road. If they were on the road, how long do we think they had been out? Is it just that Michael forgot where he was when he sent Steven up to find him? I am re-listening now myself, so will probably have the answer in a few, but think that it is worth putting here.
Thanks

I'm pretty certain that the shooting incident took place awhile after Datu and Kalani had already left. Remember, things don't always occur in chronological order, and the pauses between "segments" could indicate several hours instead of the few seconds that we get. I think it's safe to say Datu and Kalani are in the clear, since the radio trouble with the tower was noticed AFTER D & K told Burt they were on their way.

[nikvoodoo]

Can anyone fill in the Datu timeline? I feel like we are missing something there. He was reported to be on the roof, downstairs getting tools, and then supposed to be on the road. If they were on the road, how long do we think they had been out? Is it just that Michael forgot where he was when he sent Steven up to find him? I am re-listening now myself, so will probably have the answer in a few, but think that it is worth putting here.
Thanks

....I can't believe I'm about to help debunk my Datu is the rat theory.....

Datu, being the handy man, gets tasked with so many different things. When Riley blew up at Angel he was soon after tasked with prepping the roof for landing a helicopter on it. But once the Tower was informed Burt/Saul found a chopper but was damaged, Datu gets reassigned to prep tools to help fix it with Kalani because the two of them combined will most likely be the only pair that can do it.

Kalani and Datu take off for LAX when they hear the Tower is not responding to calls. Kalani suggesting they turn around and check implies they aren't too far away. Besides, Datu is very obviously in the vehicle with Kalani. He can't be at the Tower. Michael just probably forgot he got repurposed to help Kalani.

[Dameon1213]

lol i dont thin "datu is the rat" was ever a valid option, i am sorry i heard the on WND and i busted out laughing

[nikvoodoo]

Listen to the episode's end again, the pistol is silenced, i don't think the shooting is bad, nor do i think Pippin is truly bad, there was a theory saying he was an assassin, and i didn't think of it at first but now i get it, he is there to kill the traitor, why? Because he is no longer of use to the mallers, i think that when Burt realized "the nest" was not going respond, he ran as quickly as they could back to the tower, seeing the situation, i think it was Burt who shot. like i said the pistol was suppressed and last i checked, they only have one, unless K.C infers that when they went back to Burt's shop, he had more suppressors. Also if that is not true, i think that they had more then on suppressor, and Steven shot Pippin knowing why he was there and who sent him.

Are you saying that Burt ran from LAX to the Tower to shoot a guy he doesn't necessarily even know was there? And there are more than one suppressor available to the Tower. One for an MP5 (from the Colony that Victor took) and one for a pistol (which is the one Burt had all along). I don't know if those two would be interchangeable between weapons or not because I don't know the barrel sizes of either weapon.


And you can think my Datu theory is crazy, but when I came up with the theory and posted it in January/February it was one of the only theories that had strong character evidence to support it. Everyone else was just saying "that kalani guy is the rat because I hate him and he's a douche" or "Kelly is such a bitch, it had to be her!" No one even tried to guess the "Why" which is the most important part if its a true traitor and not a planted mole. Its gotten better since that time though :)

[Dameon1213]

that is my secondary theory stated first, i think it would be safer to say Steven shot Pippin

[zombiederek]

Listen to the episode's end again, the pistol is silenced, i don't think the shooting is bad, nor do i think Pippin is truly bad, there was a theory saying he was an assassin, and i didn't think of it at first but now i get it, he is there to kill the traitor, why? Because he is no longer of use to the mallers, i think that when Burt realized "the nest" was not going respond, he ran as quickly as they could back to the tower, seeing the situation, i think it was Burt who shot. like i said the pistol was suppressed and last i checked, they only have one, unless K.C infers that when they went back to Burt's shop, he had more suppressors. Also if that is not true, i think that they had more then on suppressor, and Steven shot Pippin knowing why he was there and who sent him.

I thought that Burt decided that they were not going back to the tower because it could be nothing. He seemed worried, but nothing that I would see as him knowing what was going on at all. I still believe that all signs point to Steven.

[HorrorHiro]

I personally think that Riley was the one that took the silenced pistol from Burt & Saul's bag I have no reason to believe this, I just think its her. Who do you think took the pistol and is responsible for the acts that followed? And (SPOILERS) do you think that Angel got shot when he bolted out to get to Burt's Armory? I say no I think that whoever went into the room to assassinate Pippin was just hiding behind the door waiting for someone to bolt out. And am I the only person who doesn't have a problem with Pippin's accent? I'v been to England, Ireland and back several times I find nothing (or found nothing) wrong with his accent. And last but not least do you think the assassin had a change of heart at the very last second and just fired near Hope's head or do you think she just got capped in the face? I think its the latter simply because at the end of the episode you don't hear her body drop or anything...

[Dameon1213]

I just listened to it again, you are right, it couldnt be burt, i would have to be steven.

[youthXattack]

i don't believe that the shooter actually shot Hope, they just put another bullet in pippin. The sounds after the final gun shot don't sound like a body hitting the floor, just of someone hurrying out of a room.

Has anyone thought about why it was that Michael didn't want Pegs to do monitor duty?

[COsurvivor]

Does everyone remember that the there 2 keys to Burt's place now? Michael and Burt have the only copies... Curious and curiouser... I just don't think Michael would shoot Hope though...

If the "deep throat" is not Steven or any of the known characters... Then we are at a complete loss, I am not sure KC would be that cruel... But then again, I don't know him well enough to make that statement.

Possible Candidates now:

Datu: I place his name here as someone stated here he is a candidate... Highly doubtful as Hope is Samantha's daughter... He would die for her, not kill her.

Kelly: Not on radar, why would she back a group that helped to kill her nephew?

Kalani: Sure he is a selfish ass, but hey who wouldn't be at this point? He is working hard and looks to be working towards a safer location for all.

Steven: An obvious choice as he "self" nominated himself to run the tower. After the Lizzie affair and Michael was in The Colony. (better than 50%)

Riley: There is something going on with her mentally as a result of Lizzie's departure... Maybe??? (Less than 10%)

Angel: I keep coming back to Scratch's knowing his face... We never found out why that is!?! Sometimes, those who act weak and ineffective do strange things to get their bruised EGO back...

I say there is something that the Mallers have on the traitor/rat to make this person bend to their will and might not be as free decisions as we all think...

Still funny how the military boys never thought to use military grade communication gear and use unencrypted gear even after the "WAR".

[Dameon1213]

0.0.............i think he is on to something. not to say mike is the traitor, but.......it makes sense

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

i don't believe that the shooter actually shot Hope, they just put another bullet in pippin. The sounds after the final gun shot don't sound like a body hitting the floor, just of someone hurrying out of a room.

Has anyone thought about why it was that Michael didn't want Pegs to do monitor duty?

I don't think it had much to do with Pegs wanting to kill Pippin, she doesn't seem bloodthirsty (especially considering she breaks down after killing John in the Maller attack).
I think it had more to do with Michael being protective of Pegs and that he didn't want her anywhere near Pippin, who at that point could not be trusted and was thought
to be dangerous.

Also Datu being the mole? I don't remember anything that could potentially lead him to do any harm to the tower.

[cupcakezombie]

Thanks, wasn't trying to push the Datu is rat theory, was just lost on timeline. Although, relistening it sounds like the car is pulling away when they are talking to Saul and Burt. In terms of people thinking that they are on the road while this is all happening, we have not proof of that. Only that when they tried to call the radio was down. KC has had the out of sync plotlines before. Also, I thought it was slightly strange that Kalani told the other guys to call instead of him. Just a few things that caught my interest.

I agree with lots of comments above that we can not say for sure who the shooter is, and even if the shooter and rat are the same person, but I think they are.
Also I think the timing is very convienent. If the shooter had tried while Kelly was on duty, then she is unlikely to have left the room to go investigate the alarm, rather I think she would have called for help. It seems that the shooter waited for someone who would go to investigate. The fact that Hope was there is almost an aside, the rat just needed to get the guard out of the room. The shooter may not have even realised that she was going to be there, or that she would be left by Angel.
I think the reason it was not done at night while Michael was on is that spotting a person around at night is more likely to be remembered then during the day.
One further note is that I don't specifically think that Angel did anything too wrong leaving Hope in the room. The whole purpose of her being there was so that she could help out with the guard duty.

[COsurvivor]

Angel did not want to help following people...

Burt - he was sick and "most likely" to far to help with limited resources.

Lizzie aka. Blondie- her Boyfriend (forgot his name) and her just about bashed the door in early on. Did not want whatever was chasing them to come into the Tower. Considered her useless as she went hysterical...

Skittles - Yes this guy... He had information of the other tower and of other things, but since his brain did not function correctly. Angel did not care for him...

Did I miss any?

[sysasysa]

I read the whole thread and I have some ideas.

a) Kalani and Datu teamed up to shoot Pipin. The timeline could have been altered so the call to tower could have happened after Pipin was shot. Also as cupcakezombie said they told Burt and Saul to call the tower. Also early in the threat there was a theory that the shooter had an accomplice. But the motive is unexistent in my head and the probability of this is veeeeery slim.

b) Steve is the shooter and the Rat. First he kicks out Lizzie, then he doesn´t want to guard Pipin and Pipin recognizes him as the Rat. This is the obvious option. But everyone thinks its the most obvious so KC wouldn´t make this a possibility. But that can be what KC wants us to think. Maybe he watns us to think that we think that its too obvious. And maybe...

Also was anyone else disappointed that we didn´t hear the Maulers story continuation again?

[Crocketman]

who was in the radio room... all you have to know.

[HardKor]

I read the whole thread and I have some ideas.

a) Kalani and Datu teamed up to shoot Pipin. The timeline could have been altered so the call to tower could have happened after Pipin was shot. Also as cupcakezombie said they told Burt and Saul to call the tower. Also early in the threat there was a theory that the shooter had an accomplice. But the motive is unexistent in my head and the probability of this is veeeeery slim.


It really seems unlikely that the timeline could be far enough off to allow for Kalani and Datu to have still been at the Tower during the shooting, You have to assume that Angel (assuming he isn't the culprit) is going to investigate the alarm and then return to the guard room and find the body (bodies?) and sound the alarm. Kalani and Datu wouldn't have been able to do the deed and then get out fast enough to avoid suspicion.

[AdrianHD]

Okay, okay.

First, seriously, I think Steven is the biggest red herring in We're Alive. It doesn't make sense for Kc to use Steven as the rat or shooter when this is the second time we've heard from him. It makes total sense, but he's obviously just a character to make us forget about the overall picture.

Second, after hearing it again, Riley make sense. I'm going to stick my neck out there and say it was her. She wasn't present during the chat between Durai and the Tower either, wasn't she? I'm going to re-listen to the series and see if she does anything fishy. As it stands, she's my suspect.

Third, I don't think Hope is dead. Hope has one purpose, to put the spotlight back on Datu and make him look like a father figure. I can't see her being written out just yet.

[Crocketman]

Riley did not originate from the prison.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

First, seriously, I think Steven is the biggest red herring in We're Alive. It doesn't make sense for Kc to use Steven as the rat or shooter when this is the second time we've heard from him. It makes total sense, but he's obviously just a character to make us forget about the overall picture.

The way Steven is used (in terms of his dialogue) it just seems that he is either being used as a decoy to make listeners think that he is the rat/assassin, but there is always the possibility and likely hood that he is being used as a device to move the story along. Either way, there must be some kind of twist as to who did what and for what reasons. I don't think KC would have made it that easy, but again, there is always the possibility that he did.

Oh, speaking of red herring..."Communism was just a red herring..." Oh Clue (1985) what an awesome movie you were.

[Th3_T3ch]

:((((( My theory... it is wrong.... Kalani isn't the rat.

[Th3_T3ch]

Okay, okay.

First, seriously, I think Steven is the biggest red herring in We're Alive. It doesn't make sense for Kc to use Steven as the rat or shooter when this is the second time we've heard from him. It makes total sense, but he's obviously just a character to make us forget about the overall picture.

Second, after hearing it again, Riley make sense. I'm going to stick my neck out there and say it was her. She wasn't present during the chat between Durai and the Tower either, wasn't she? I'm going to re-listen to the series and see if she does anything fishy. As it stands, she's my suspect.

Third, I don't think Hope is dead. Hope has one purpose, to put the spotlight back on Datu and make him look like a father figure. I can't see her being written out just yet.

Riley, if I'm not mistaken, was drunk and dancing.

[Dameon1213]

Here are my suspiscions about steven, i know it probably has been pointed out but i am to lave to go through 19 posts to get it. 1, why in the name of god would anyone want anyone to leave a sanctuary when every body counts in the tower. he knows that she is saul's driving force, with the exception of his mom. she goes, he will go, now the rules say budy system so odds are they will send another guardian (micheal's words) to help saul with his busted self. so there are 2 gaurdians gone, then, because he is there to hear about moving, odds are he is thinking, "hey i bet at least one more will go just to find a means of transprotation, or just to look around." so there is one more out of the way, well then all that gets busted by Pippin, he knows about Pippin because he is a maller, and this thing has probably hapened before, boom motive to kill Pippin, and it may or may not gain him trust with the towerites letting him in a little further, he could actually lead the people in the tower to the mallers, granted scratch will kick his ass 5 ways from sunday.

[Zombiehead]

Holy f**k bunnies KC, what a cliffhanger!

[ilanagl]

Damn, is she dead? Great episode one of my favorites so far(but i say that about everyone).

[nikvoodoo]

[COLOR="darkorchid"]Does everyone remember that the there 2 keys to Burt's place now? Michael and Burt have the only copies... Curious and curiouser... I just don't think Michael would shoot Hope though...


But just remember we don't know if the armory was broken in to, or if someone just tripped the alarm. This isn't necessarily a robbery. It's a distraction. It could be as simple as kick the door to trip the sensor, run and hide while the guard checks on the alarm. You sneak past and assassinate your target. Key not necessary.

[Ra1th]

For all you haters out there

The argument is, Angel is at fault for leaving pippin unguarded to go check on the alarm going off in Burt's shop. I don't see what the problem is with this decision Pippin was chained... to a wall. He wasn't about to go anywhere. He wasn't going to be able to hurt Hope, because he was CHAINED. he wouldn't be able to cause chaos and craziness in the tower, because he was CHAINED. The guy wasn't going anywhere. So I think it's established, that Pippin was not a threat to the tower.

So the next step is Angel the Pippin is dead, and Hope or the radio has been shot? Yes, if he had not ran to check on the armory, they'd be alive. But maybe you're forgetting, the armory alarm had been tripped. The armory had been raided before, and the rat had stolen all of their supplies. When the alarm was tripped, the first reaction of any soldier, EVEN the infallible Michael would have done the same thing. The logic behind it is simple, Pippin was chained to a wall, he wasn't going anywhere. The armory on the other hand was possibly being raided by the traitor. The best choice at that time would have been to run and check out what was happening at the armory, and possibly find out who tried to break in. The armory is on the same floor as the guard room, and I believe they are both on the second floor. Well the majority of the tower has relocated itself to the 5th and 6th floors of the tower after the fire, so there is a very good chance that Angel was one of the only ones who were in the vicinity to hear the alarm go off. So basically, best decision he coulda made was to check out the armory rather than keep guard over pippin, because no one could have assumed that pippin would fall under attack. The only logical move in that situation was to go check on the armory.


BRINGIT!

[zombiederek]

Does everyone remember that the there 2 keys to Burt's place now? Michael and Burt have the only copies... Curious and curiouser... I just don't think Michael would shoot Hope though...

If the "deep throat" is not Steven or any of the known characters... Then we are at a complete loss, I am not sure KC would be that cruel... But then again, I don't know him well enough to make that statement.



Possible Candidates now:

Datu: I place his name here as someone stated here he is a candidate... Highly doubtful as Hope is Samantha's daughter... He would die for her, not kill her.

Kelly: Not on radar, why would she back a group that helped to kill her nephew?

Kalani: Sure he is a selfish ass, but hey who wouldn't be at this point? He is working hard and looks to be working towards a safer location for all.

Steven: An obvious choice as he "self" nominated himself to run the tower. After the Lizzie affair and Michael was in The Colony. (better than 50%)

Riley: There is something going on with her mentally as a result of Lizzie's departure... Maybe??? (Less than 10%)

Angel: I keep coming back to Scratch's knowing his face... We never found out why that is!?! Sometimes, those who act weak and ineffective do strange things to get their bruised EGO back...

I say there is something that the Mallers have on the traitor/rat to make this person bend to their will and might not be as free decisions as we all think...

Still funny how the military boys never thought to use military grade communication gear and use unencrypted gear even after the "WAR".

I kind of like the Idea of Angel being forced into being the rat. But my arguments to this would be that while Scratch may have recognized him, she didn't act like it was a happy memory, like she was spurned by him or he had some negative effect on his life that he may even be unaware of. But this is after all the apocalypse, so why would he be worried about anything that happened in the past?

[kafu288]

There are two options:

a) Angel is the shooter and the alarm was tripped in teh guard room to give him an alibi. He pretends to leave to fool Hope and then comes back in and shoots him. Hope has a small amount of vision and vaguely recognises Angel leading to further tension. IN this scenario, Angel is not the rat. Doubt it because if Angel had shot Pippen he would have stayed, not run off, and just said that the person was gone when he came in. It could be argued that Angel ran so he didn't get caught with the gun but that doesn't make sence either it would have been easier for him to just switch the alarm off, put the gun back in Burt's room and say it was a false alarm and that he found them dead when he got back.

b) Rat has silenced pistol. Rat throws something against Burt's door to trip the alarm and then once Angel comes out gets into the room, shoots and runs. This is the most likely option. Rat doesn't need to be close to the armorey so long as they can hit the door (assuming the alarm is tripped to go off that way) and then get in and out before Angel gets back... unless Angel is working with the shooter. Why would the shooter run in this case? In case someone else comes in, sees them with a gun and 2 dead bodies (or 1 and 1 really scarred blind girl) and isn't retarded. Still, I think it was someone acting alone and I point the finger squarely at...... Riley

EDIT: Oh and to those people who say Datu couldn't shoot Hope because he knew Samantha, your ignoring 2 things. One, look at how many people rape/kill/imprison their children and shit like that. It happens. Two, if Hope was making Datu feel sad again about Samantha to the point where he was, once again, battling serious depression, killing her would probably seem like a reasonable choice to him. Nevertheless, I am 100% confident Datu isn't the killer because he wasn't there in the tower when it happened.

[NoReality95]

KC you fiend! I forgot all about the episode this week, glad iTunes updated for me, but my God I'm on the edge of my seat for the next episode!

[mascaria]

See guys? I told you Pippin wasn't a spy. :(

Here's the issue that I have with Angel running off to check the alarm (and it doesn't have anything to do with Pippin getting shot!). He's just left the building unsecured. No one's watching the monitors.

P.S. It wasn't Riley.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

It doesn't seem like Angel would have anything to gain in regards to betraying the Tower and I don't think Riley is either since I can't think of any motive on why she would kill Pippin and possibly Hope/shoot the security cameras/radio.

Whoever it is, I can't wait until the next episode =D

[Leedo2502]

Look I doubt that there was a thief (Bill) a Rat (?) and Shooter (?)! I am going with the Rat and the shooter being the same damn person. And the only charecter that makes sense is the new guy that was just added to the story Steve. Steve wanted to refuse guard duty (Because Pip' would recognize him and blow his cover).

THe only recourse that the Rat (Steve!) had is inaction or take out the threat.
Inaction: Steve would eventually run into Pippin either when it came to light that Pippin poses no threat or the off chance that people stopped buying his BS excuses to get out of guard duty and thus being exposed to Pip'.
Take Out the Threat: The only option that still allows the Rat to have the initiative. If taking out Pip works then he is back in buisness, if it doesn't work then he still has the ability to leave on his own terms either way this is the only way that lets Steve carry out his original mission, Gathering intelegence and sowing discord (such as stirring the pot and getting Lizzy booted).

I still haven't noticed the "sniff" at the end of the episode but if there is one I'm thinking that maybe Steve was spritzing some cologne into the room so frame Vic and get them off of his back.
And I think the shooting of the CB Radio idea is excessive... Honestly I think that Hope was purosfully wounded and left to smell "Victor" and let Steve get away with it

[Creem_Filling]

Okay I read the first three pages of this, but twenty is too much. I'm totally freaking out right now. When Hope was crying out for help, it was relistening to the rape fiasco, but nearly as bad of course. And I don't think that this clears Pippin's name, even though I still think he's good. Or was good. It's not Angel, why would he leave the room and then come back to shoot? That's just super unefficient. And I don't know what breaking into the armoury was for. From what I thought I understood, they were using a silenced pistil, and a silenced pistol was missing from Burt's and Saul's bag when Saul was looking for it. I just thought the shooter stole it from there. I also don't think it's the rat that is the shooter, because they don't seem to have the gusto to do that. They have been hiding and giving away secrets like a little girl, not "manning" up and actually saboging the tower or anything like that. I just have a hard team believing they went from giving intel to shooting people. But I still want more info on the Lizzie situation!

All-in-all, I loved it. This chapter may end up being one of my favourites.

[Leedo2502]

If the Rat isn't the shooter then what is the motivation for the SHooter???

[Leedo2502]

Okay I read the first three pages of this, but twenty is too much. I'm totally freaking out right now. When Hope was crying out for help, it was relistening to the rape fiasco, but nearly as bad of course. And I don't think that this clears Pippin's name, even though I still think he's good. Or was good. It's not Angel, why would he leave the room and then come back to shoot? That's just super unefficient. And I don't know what breaking into the armoury was for. From what I thought I understood, they were using a silenced pistil, and a silenced pistol was missing from Burt's and Saul's bag when Saul was looking for it. I just thought the shooter stole it from there. I also don't think it's the rat that is the shooter, because they don't seem to have the gusto to do that. They have been hiding and giving away secrets like a little girl, not "manning" up and actually saboging the tower or anything like that. I just have a hard team believing they went from giving intel to shooting people. But I still want more info on the Lizzie situation!

All-in-all, I loved it. This chapter may end up being one of my favourites.

Creme extended undercover operations while feeding info to you intel consumers (the Mallers) falls into the "Manning-up" area of jobs. The Rat never shot anyone because that wasnt his job. In reality shooting someone would jeapordize your job! When his job was threatened (with the introduction of Pippin) The Rat needed to eliminate the threat and then go back to his original job.

[Creem_Filling]

If the Rat isn't the shooter then what is the motivation for the SHooter???

Quizaz the shooter just hates Pippin. He/she sets off the alarm to get who ever is on guard to run away to check. They come in after they see that Angel has left and shoot Pippin. But then they see Hope there. They didn't know that there would be two people on guard and they decide she has to die too, as to not be caught. Because the shooter did hesitate to shoot Hope, if that's even what they did. The cliffhanger is that we don't know if she's shot, so who knows.

[AdrianHD]

Listening again... poor Hope =| Her mom ditched her, the Colony didn't want her, she had to escape while being hunted, she gets a job at a safe place for the first time and this is what happens. I'm shaking my fist at you, Kc!

[Beaumont]

It really was a lackluster episode up until the last 3 minutes but I'm excited for whats to come. I really hope the end isn't coming for Burt.

[Osiris]

Cliffs?

[kafu288]

P.S. It wasn't Riley.

proof?

As for motivation for the shooter well think of it like this: you know this guy is no good but the leader won't make a decision so you make the decision himself. This isn't really a time of laws or morals - you do what you have to to survive and in the shooter's eyes this could be completely justified. A "you wouldn't do what had to be done so I DID" situation. Could be Steven - although i doubt it. That just seems too neat.

[MrScott101]

whooo,.... 20 pages of reading took forever! and of course the one thing the repeatedly was getting missed either Nik or Raith got to it before me! Of Course!

The alarm was tripped meaning it didn't matter who has keys or not. Pippen got the double tap and I think either Hope was shot or shot near the ears to make things harder. However there was no hesitation between all 3 shots, so whoever the shooter is they clearly don't have a problem with shooting anyone.

I really don't think the radio was shot, just because Saul and Burt couldn't get ahold of anyone doesn't mean the radio was shot, just means there's no one to pick up the other end.

I like the idea that the shooter may not be the rat but Pippen's reaction clearly shows that this person was one and the same. It wasn't a reaction of oh I just met you within the last couple of days and now you have a gun. It was whoa I remember you from somewhere else. Plus a thing that hasn't been mentioned or maybe not as clearly. Maybe the rat was told to take more action once they had the signal. This signal being someone you recognize that is expendable. Sleeper cells have shown to go about your daily business for years if need be.

I think the Victor cologne bit will bring up a plot to frame him and despite how much steven may grate on your nerves I don't think it's him. Originally I thought the rat was Kalani but this chapter shows he's clearly not. I think at this point the rat is someone not introduced yet that has been hiding in the shadows and that even the name of this chapter clearly shows that the group as we know is going to get crazy about who the rat is and point fingers towards each other. That will completely blindside and throw all sorts of wrenches into the next month's worth of theories and ideas.

[cupcakezombie]

The 'sniff' at the end sounds to me like something is being swung around fast.
Also, I can't hear much of a difference between the Angels feet and the other feet running at the end. But that doesn't say much cause cause the alarm is covering Angel running out.
A final thing I noticed re-listening to this is that the alarm has faded out/stopped before the last shot. If it has stopped could this mean that Angel is resetting the alarm while the shooter is still in the room, thus ruling him out?

[Creem_Filling]

A final thing I noticed re-listening to this is that the alarm has faded out/stopped before the last shot. If it has stopped could this mean that Angel is resetting the alarm while the shooter is still in the room, thus ruling him out?

That makes sense. Like I said before. I can't see it being him. Why would he run out of the room and then turn around to kill Hope and Pippin? Him murdering people would have to be pretty pre-meditated and if he had planned on killing them, then wouldn't he have shot them and then left the room to go turn off the alarm?

[j0be]

Didn't someone say they were going to compile the chat into a pdf or something so those that missed it could still read through the logs of the chat? I would heart me some of that since I missed it!
I compiled it now, check out the thread here (http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?1663). It is edited and reordered to be easier to read. (People posting answers to previous questions, etc.)



You know what I'm pissed that I just realized? You hinted on Friday that Hope was going to die or something like that during the Cast Chat. But of course I didn't catch it then.
Did I?


[LINK] (http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?1663-Cast-Chat-Archive-%282011.5.20%29#Current+Question:+If+you+could+swi tch+characters+with+another+on+Were+Alive+who+woul d+you+pick)
Current Question: If you could switch characters with another on We're Alive, who would you pick?
Kc (http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/member.php?u=1): I wanna be Tommy
Kc (http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/member.php?u=1): ...or Hope.
Kc (http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/member.php?u=1): A hint? :P

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

I compiled it now, check out the thread here (http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?1663). It is edited and reordered to be easier to read. (People posting answers to previous questions, etc.)

Excellent work j0be, and a great effort by itsallgoodie.

[mascaria]

Also I wanted to say... I get why everyone is all "it was Steven" now but I trust Kc as a writer far too much to think that he'd give us so obvious a bad guy.

[kairon00]

Lets look at the suspects Michael, Peggs, Kelly, Riley, Victor, Hope, Tanya, Saul, Angel, Burt, Datu, Kalani & Steven

First, who knew about the silenced weapons because Burt kept them locked up Michael, Peggs, Kelly, Victor, hope, Tanya, Saul, Angel, Burt

Burt and Saul were at LAX you can't be in two places at once

Datu and Kalani had already left the tower

Angel left to go to the armoury, no one would fall for their own trap also Hope cannot fire a gun and was in the room at the time

The traitor has been with the tower for some time meaning Victor, Hope or Tanya cannot be the traitor

Assuming the traitor fired the shot at the mallers Peggs cannot be the traitor due to her being in the stairwell at the time as well as her lack of gun skills

Steven was a recently introduced character it would be a copout for him to be the traitor, also he was introduced after the initial incidents with the traitor

That leaves Michael, Riley and Kelly

My opinion is Kelly is the traitor and here is why. She knew about the silenced weapons, talked to Michael about who was on guard shift next, was in the initial interrogation with Pippin, pulled guard duty right before for six hours and listen to Pippin talk and was unaccounted for during the early stages of the war with the mallers.

Also for those who wonder why there was the last shot we all have concluded it was the radio or Hope but why?
This might be an answer for the radio question, the traitor might have shot it to keep from Burt and Saul from telling the tower the silenced pistol was missing causing the tower to find out when they come back. Just a thought.

[nikvoodoo]

Also I wanted to say... I get why everyone is all "it was Steven" now but I trust Kc as a writer far too much to think that he'd give us so obvious a bad guy.

And it's that exact reason I I railed against Kalani and Kelly and chose Datu. Sadly, I chose wrong. Shoulda picked Riley or Pegs or somethin'.

@kairon: by your own logic, you have to eliminate Michael too. He was in the room when the shots were fired.

And Kelly was very quickly accounted for in the war. She was the one who was throwing furniture first (12-1 ~16:00). But you are correct: Riley and Kelly are unaccounted for during the shots heard round the world.

[Creem_Filling]

And it's that exact reason I I railed against Kalani and Kelly and chose Datu. Sadly, I chose wrong. Shoulda picked Riley or Pegs or somethin'.

I don't think it's Pegs. And I'm not just saying that because I'm in love with her. She wouldn't even touch a gun not long before, and I can't see her from going to hating guns and crying over killing an enemy to murdering innocents. It's like me going purely carnivore all of the sudden, and I'm a vegetarian. It's too big of a change I think.

[nikvoodoo]

I don't think it's Pegs. And I'm not just saying that because I'm in love with her. She wouldn't even touch a gun not long before, and I can't see her from going to hating guns and crying over killing an enemy to murdering innocents. It's like me going purely carnivore all of the sudden, and I'm a vegetarian. It's too big of a change I think.

I know Pegs would be an impossible choice for the Shot Heard Round the World reason...unless there are two rats.... I'm just lamenting being wrong is all. :p I don't know who it is, and I'm going to try not to think about it too hard anymore. I feel that plot line's endgame is coming and I want to enjoy the ride :)

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

The only recourse that the Rat (Steve!) had is inaction or take out the threat.
Inaction: Steve would eventually run into Pippin either when it came to light that Pippin poses no threat or the off chance that people stopped buying his BS excuses to get out of guard duty and thus being exposed to Pip'.

Take Out the Threat: The only option that still allows the Rat to have the initiative. If taking out Pip works then he is back in buisness, if it doesn't work then he still has the ability to leave on his own terms either way this is the only way that lets Steve carry out his original mission, Gathering intelegence and sowing discord (such as stirring the pot and getting Lizzy booted).

I still haven't noticed the "sniff" at the end of the episode but if there is one I'm thinking that maybe Steve was spritzing some cologne into the room so frame Vic and get them off of his back.
And I think the shooting of the CB Radio idea is excessive... Honestly I think that Hope was purosfully wounded and left to smell "Victor" and let Steve get away with it

I completely agree that IF Steven was the rat/assassin that getting rid of Pippin was essential to keep his cover and could also explain why he was so reluctant to be on guard duty with Pippin in the room, as Pippin would
have probably recognized him from before. But the shooting of the CB Radio isn't too outlandish as it would create chaos in terms of communication to the Tower, something that the Mallers could take advantage of. I'm just
saying it is a possibility, we will probably know for sure in the next part whether the last shot was...

1. To Shoot the CB Radio (Which would explain why no one is answering)
2. To Shoot Hope (Which would also explain why no one is answering) (*Credit to Mr.Scott101 for making that point)
3. To make sure that Pippin was dead (Three in the head you know they're dead)

However if it was Steven, wouldn't it mean that the Mallers knew about the Tower beforehand or maybe he contacted them/stumbled onto them on the radio in lieu of the situation when the Tower was in chaos?

[Michael Farris]

I think that one thing that I haven't read was that now we know there are OBVIOUSLY two traitors in the tower. One was sent to Burt's Room to create a distraction with the alarm. (Anyone in the tower would know there was a alarm on that door and setting it off would not be an accident). And the second traitor would be there to kill Pippin. Classic distraction and assassination.

Other notes.

Hope is probably not dead. Why kill someone who can't ID you?
Stephen is an obvious red herring.
Whoever killed Pippin probably tried to kill Durai. Killing off the evidence of being a traitor. (I'll make another post about this in the Theories section later.)

[CantWaitForSeason3]

Has anyone suggested Michael was the who killed pippin?

he didn't trust pippin.
he knows where the silenced pistol is.
he put hope on guard duty.
he how to use the silenced pistol as he has done it before.
he made sure pippin was handcuffed
pippin was surprised to see Michael "the good guy" going to kill him.

What proves this wrong???

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

I think that one thing that I haven't read was that now we know there are OBVIOUSLY two traitors in the tower. One was sent to Burt's Room to create a distraction with the alarm. (Anyone in the tower would know there was a alarm on that door and setting it off would not be an accident). And the second traitor would be there to kill Pippin. Classic distraction and assassination.

It's not completely obvious, but it is looking like there is a strong possibility that there are two traitors in the tower. One person could have probably pulled if off if they were quick enough.


Michael?

Has anyone suggested Michael was the who killed pippin?

he didn't trust pippin.
he knows where the silenced pistol is.
he put hope on guard duty.
he how to use the silenced pistol as he has done it before.
he made sure pippin was handcuffed
pippin was surprised to see Michael "the good guy" going to kill him.

What proves this wrong???

Yes, it has been mentioned and there is some speculation regarding that it might have been done to just eliminate a potential spy threat (Pippin).

[kafu288]

Honestly, nothing except that I don't think he has it in him. I don't know... just how the character has been represented so far through the series

EDIT: They don't even need to be quick depending on how the alarm is rigged. If it goes off on someone touching the door then they'd just have to throw something at it.

[nikvoodoo]

I think that one thing that I haven't read was that now we know there are OBVIOUSLY two traitors in the tower. One was sent to Burt's Room to create a distraction with the alarm. (Anyone in the tower would know there was a alarm on that door and setting it off would not be an accident). And the second traitor would be there to kill Pippin. Classic distraction and assassination.

The reason you haven't read it, is because it isn't necessarily two traitors in the towers. One person would be capable of tripping the alarm in the armory, hiding while Angel investigates the alarm, and slipping past him while Angel is doing that in order to assassinate Pippin.

I do agree with your points on Steven, the shots at Durai, and also Hope probably isn't dead. But just because she can't see doesn't mean there isn't some identifying factor she can't make a connection to. Blind, not stupid.

[Michael Farris]

Has anyone suggested Michael was the who killed pippin?

he didn't trust pippin.
he knows where the silenced pistol is.
he put hope on guard duty.
he how to use the silenced pistol as he has done it before.
he made sure pippin was handcuffed
pippin was surprised to see Michael "the good guy" going to kill him.

What proves this wrong???

The way I read it was that Pippn recognized his killer. Since he saw Michael, I would think that he would ask to be kicked to the curb and not be locked in the room, reading books, and waiting to be killed. So whoever killed him, he never saw in the tower. Given the opportunities of Burt, Saul, etc. this leaves only Riley. I think.

[Creem_Filling]

Has anyone suggested Michael was the who killed pippin?

he didn't trust pippin.
he knows where the silenced pistol is.
he put hope on guard duty.
he how to use the silenced pistol as he has done it before.
he made sure pippin was handcuffed
pippin was surprised to see Michael "the good guy" going to kill him.

What proves this wrong???

He's the main character. And at the very beginning he was telling the story. I write stories a lot and one thing I think I can understand KC on is the attachment you feel for your main character. You want them to be the best, and often put a lot of yourself into them. so I can't see KC making him a murderer.

[Michael Farris]

The reason you haven't read it, is because it isn't necessarily two traitors in the towers. One person would be capable of tripping the alarm in the armory, hiding while Angel investigates the alarm, and slipping past him while Angel is doing that in order to assassinate Pippin.

I do agree with your points on Steven, the shots at Durai, and also Hope probably isn't dead. But just because she can't see doesn't mean there isn't some identifying factor she can't make a connection to. Blind, not stupid.

Ok maybe it isn't obvious, but it is highly likely. There was a small period of time between the alarm and Pippin being killed. I'm no master of rooms and their location in the tower, but I would think that there would not be enough time between the alarm, killing Pippn, and leaving, all without being detected or causing suspicion. Having a two person plan makes more sense to me.

[CantWaitForSeason3]

He's the main character. And at the very beginning he was telling the story. I write stories a lot and one thing I think I can understand KC on is the attachment you feel for your main character. You want them to be the best, and often put a lot of yourself into them. so I can't see KC making him a murderer.


Michael had killed many enemies in his years: humans, zombies, and even moles.

He had killed to escape the colony and i think would kill to protect the tower.

Take no chances in a time of war.

[Eviebae]

Don't want to get picky, but visually impaired people can't hear any better than sighted people.

Think about it, no-one thinks that deaf people get great eyesight, do they?

Psychology BS woman to the rescue!
::strikes heroic pose::
I don't know about the deaf and eyesight thing, but when you lose a limb or a sense, your brain remaps to use the abandoned real estate. What gets that real estate is what ever is being worked on heavily.

[kafu288]

throwing something against an alarm door from close to the room and ducking out of sight, going in and taking a couple of shots while Angel takes a look in the room to make sure no one is inside wouldn't take that long.

Its pretty easy to set up those alarms that go off if the door moves (depending on how complicated it is)

[Creem_Filling]

Michael had killed many enemies in his years: humans, zombies, and even moles.

He had killed to escape the colony and i think would kill to protect the tower.

Take no chances in a time of war.

But if it is Michael, then he gets major bad points and probably kicked out of the tower. Which it's really hard to write a story with your main character away from where the story is actually happening.

[kafu288]

Not neccessarily. A lot of people don't want Pippen there.

Of cause Mikey didn't shoot but still

[CantWaitForSeason3]

But if it is Michael, then he gets major bad points and probably kicked out of the tower. Which it's really hard to write a story with your main character away from where the story is actually happening.


he doesn't get caught. simple.

[nikvoodoo]

Psychology BS woman to the rescue!
::strikes heroic pose::

I know what you're saying when you say Psychology BS woman....but that's after I heard the traditional abbreviation for BS first which made me laugh ;)


Ok maybe it isn't obvious, but it is highly likely. There was a small period of time between the alarm and Pippin being killed. I'm no master of rooms and their location in the tower, but I would think that there would not be enough time between the alarm, killing Pippn, and leaving, all without being detected or causing suspicion. Having a two person plan makes more sense to me.

The key is what did Angel do when he left the guard room and how is that alarm set to go off. If the armory door is kicked in, the first thing Angel is going to do is go inside and look around and that buys the assassin the amount of time he needs to get done what needs to get done. Speculation on my part, I know. And as much as I've always said I understand how there can be two rats/traitors, I just think its better if its just one person.

[Walrusgus]

Arriving home from a shit day to find a new We're Alive... Priceless!

[Creem_Filling]

Arriving home from a shit day to find a new We're Alive... Priceless!

I know how you feel. For twent minutes, finals don't have to exist for me.

[AdrianHD]

Michael had killed many enemies in his years: humans, zombies, and even moles.

He had killed to escape the colony and i think would kill to protect the tower.

Take no chances in a time of war.
There's one big flaw with that.
Michael went to the Colony.

As he said when he returned to the Tower, he seen how Marcus ran the Colony and he doesn't want that.

[Dino_Does_Zombies]

I don't know if anyone has said this and I am sorry if I derail the flow of this thread (and I wish I had time to read all 23 pages, really) but man o man do I think Kelly is the killer/rat. Remember, Michael humiliated her the night when the power went out. She has a score to settle with the leadership, especially since it led to Tommy's death. I always found her inquisitive nature to be suspect. Do you remember when she first met Victor. She was strangely "friendly"... or was she just trying to establish trust and obtain intel regarding the Colony for the Mallers. She was strangely nice with Pippin, almost as nice as she was with Victor. Just my two cents.

Please don't flame ;)

[Beaumont]

I'm really surprised at how many people think Michael would even be a suspected. I don't think there has been any indication of him being a cold blooded killer. I can't think of any information we've been given to even suspect him and yes that would make for a big twist but it would also corrupt the "hero" of the story.

[AdrianHD]

I'm really surprised at how many people think Michael would even be a suspected. I don't think there has been any indication of him being a cold blooded killer. I can't think of any information we've been given to even suspect him and yes that would make for a big twist but it would also corrupt the "hero" of the story.

This.

The thing about Michael is he's the character we HAVE to connect with. In order for a story to work, you have to be able to be on a level with the main character. Especially in a story that's full of betrayals as this one. Yeah, you may be able to love other characters more than Michael, but when it comes down to it, Michael is the one that hold it all together. If he lets it all loose, well we'll all be lost with a true sense of direction.

That, and he also took Pippin in. He could, in theory, let him loose to the zombies whenever he wants. Why would any sane man ever go through the trouble of keeping him here just to cause all of this ruckus?

[mem]

Well done on the episode. I was left questioning more and feeling i knew less. After i got a chance to listen last night I smiled, because I realized why everyone was blowing the forum up.

[Ten]

I still think it's Steven. He refused to watch Pippen because he didn't want him recognizing him. And if he is from the prison then it would be possible that breaking into the armory is one of his skill sets.

[Hellbringer]

Holy cow, 24 pages of reading... wow! Ok, I don't want to speculate on who the rat is anymore. I think I've read more theories about the rat/shooter then when I read about JFK. Kidding aside, I noticed that Burt and Saul mentioned the explosion but that's all the further we got; I'm still thinking about the Mallers' plan with the gas tankers and how successful they were.
Maybe we'll find out on the next part.

Definitely a great episode, and I thought it was going to end when Burt and Saul were done, but lo and behold, it continued! and wow, that was an edge of the seat cliffhanger there!

[clarkie]

Okay, here's a possibility. What if the shooter wasn't intending to go in and shoot Pippen - what if they didn't even know he was there? Perhaps they thought someone else was going to be there (possibly Steven) or maybe they were going for Hope (although this seems unlikely). Perhaps this person was the rat, saw Pippen, recognised him and had to shoot him in case he let the cat out of the bag.

Another theory would be that the mallers had second thoughts about sending Pippen undercover, and had the rat eliminate him...

[shaztec]

I have a feeling that Riley fits into this somehow. I remember when angel saw her on the roof drunk upset about lizzy. I think her priorities may have shifted away from her own safety/survival to more of a "protect the group" way of thinking. Pipin was an unstablising and unknown quantity. A possible mole sent by mallers. The tower knows that lizzy was probably taken by mallers. And we know from the arena battle that she can be deadly with her bow. Why not a pistol? I think she could be a wild card heading into this seasons finale.

[Tandem25]

I am sooooooooooo glad that I don't have to listen to Pippin any more!

This is just a guess but, the silenced pistol was being kept at the armory/Burt's room right?
So, theories about the perp having an accomplice don't fit the scenario. Whoever set off the alarm and got the gun made it to Pippin and carried out his or her task.
If they already had a gun then I'd like to add that there are multiple ways to set off an alarm without being present. Some are mechanical and invoke images if Macgyver. But, a very simple way is to just cut the wire leading to the door. The wire can be cut anywhere on it's way to the sensor and it would likely set the alarm off.
... But who knows. It's got me wondering. Great suspense guys. Keep it up.

[MrScott101]

Clarkie, I really like your thought of the rat not intending to shoot but did upon recognition, however no words were exchanged and the alarm was triggered so it was premeditated. I know this from my younger days and not exactly hanging out with the good crowd.

I do not think micheal did this at all, for all th reasons stated previously, he's the main character and narrator, story would go completely south for everyone's attachement to it.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

Well done on the episode. I was left questioning more and feeling i knew less. After i got a chance to listen last night I smiled, because I realized why everyone was blowing the forum up.

Soooooo...Ya....wanna clue us in on watcha thinkin' aboot?

[Arkum]

If the sole purpose of taking out Pippen is so the rat can throw the tower into disarray, then why spare Angel's life. That would work even better if they both were killed. The tower would be chaos.

I'll be shouting Riley did it till part 2 or 3 proves otherwise.

[clarkie]

Clarkie, I really like your thought of the rat not intending to shoot but did upon recognition, however no words were exchanged and the alarm was triggered so it was premeditated.
I might be wrong but didn't Pippen say "Oh, it's you" or something of the like. I also agree that the shooter was going in there intending to shoot someone, just not Pippen.

After more thinking, I'm starting to agree with the theory that Riley is the shooter and possibly the rat. Firstly she was drunk on the roof when Pippen came in, so there's a good chance she hasn't even seen him yet. I also think she was intending to shoot Steven originally, perhaps in revenge for getting Lizzie kicked out. I don't think this is something she would do normally, but drink combined with strong emotions can make people do stupid things. She grabs a gun, goes in expecting to find Steven (he was meant to be there), sees and recognises Pippen instead (possibly from some contact with the mallers, or if she is indeed the rat (something I doubt)), panicks and shoots him.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

I might be wrong but didn't Pippen say "Oh, it's you" or something of the like. I also agree that the shooter was going in there intending to shoot someone, just not Pippen.

After more thinking, I'm starting to agree with the theory that Riley is the shooter and possibly the rat. Firstly she was drunk on the roof when Pippen came in, so there's a good chance she hasn't even seen him yet. I also think she was intending to shoot Steven originally, perhaps in revenge for getting Lizzie kicked out. I don't think this is something she would do normally, but drink combined with strong emotions can make people do stupid things. She grabs a gun, goes in expecting to find Steven (he was meant to be there), sees and recognises Pippen instead (possibly from some contact with the mallers, or if she is indeed the rat (something I doubt)), panicks and shoots him.

I seriously doubt that Riley is a rat for the Mallers since she has been there from the beginning and I cannot think of anything the Mallers could do/give to her in exchange for her services to betray the tower.
However, the possibility of her being drunk or angry or drunk and angry and shooting Pippin is a possibility, although not very likely. I still believe that whoever the rat or rats might be were making sure that their cover wasn't blown by Pippin identifying them.

[Arkum]

Another question is what sort of retaliation is there against Angel for leaving the room? Whether it was the right thing to do or not, him leaving directly caused what happened.

[zombiederek]

I seriously doubt that Riley is a rat for the Mallers since she has been there from the beginning and I cannot think of anything the Mallers could do/give to her in exchange for her services to betray the tower.
However, the possibility of her being drunk or angry or drunk and angry and shooting Pippin is a possibility, although not very likely. I still believe that whoever the rat or rats might be were making sure that their cover wasn't blown by Pippin identifying them.

I don't think it could be Riley, because I'm not entirely sure that they ever came into contact for him to recognize that it was her. Unless its some crazy european connection that they share (perhaps they met across the pond somewhere) there is no way that it was her. I'm still sticking with Steven. While he may be an obvious traitor, maybe thats the point. Its so obvious that we don't suspect him for what he really is.

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

I don't think it could be Riley, because I'm not entirely sure that they ever came into contact for him to recognize that it was her. Unless its some crazy european connection that they share (perhaps they met across the pond somewhere) there is no way that it was her. I'm still sticking with Steven. While he may be an obvious traitor, maybe thats the point. Its so obvious that we don't suspect him for what he really is.

Yep, that's why I said it's not very likely that Riley was involved, but I'll wait and see until the next part or two comes out to confirm/debunk everyone's beliefs/theories

[Kc]

A final thing I noticed re-listening to this is that the alarm has faded out/stopped before the last shot. If it has stopped could this mean that Angel is resetting the alarm while the shooter is still in the room, thus ruling him out?
The alarm fading out was an Aural choice. It was so powerful it was over-riding what was going on.

[CantWaitForSeason3]

That, and he also took Pippin in. He could, in theory, let him loose to the zombies whenever he wants. Why would any sane man ever go through the trouble of keeping him here just to cause all of this ruckus?

But risk having him get back to the mallers?

[zombiederek]

I loved this episode just for the intrigue alone. I really don't think Angel would have it in him to just flat out murder some one. Sure he suggested killing Scratch and Latch, but they were legitamate, known threats. Pippin was a mystery and not necessarily a threat at all, so it wouldn't make sense for him to just start killing. It would make for a really bad turn in the story if Angle were revealed to be the traitor. Or even Reily for that matter. I just want to throw this out there and it may have already been said, but what, if the Mallers helped out Michael in the water facility? It would explain why he doesnt want to talk about it, I mean it would be a cool story to say you escaped from a giant hulking zombie, but he is all weird about it.....

[TogiStubs]

Alright, so after reading the first 5 pages or so, and the last 7, (added on top, i've listened to the final 2 minutes of the podcast 10+ times) the final shot could not have been directed at the radio.

The podcast does not directly end right after the shot is made, because there's a few seconds left where you can hear running and the door opening and closing.

If the radio was shot, there would be some kind of metallic "clink" "boom" sound.

From the lack of noise made by Hope after the shot was made, that would mean that the final shot was a kill shot.