Tower vs. Mallers and the unknown rat.

[itsallgoodie]

Alright so, we have known for a while now that there is or was a rat in the tower. someone who alerted the mallers and told there where it was, ect. so today an idea what brewing in my brain and i wanted to share it with you all and get your thoughts.

Now that the mallers have lizzy and they are on the hunt for her...and the mallers as they seem to have relocated, is it possible that whoever the rat is, if they are still alive, realizes that the mallers are terrible people and that they should no longer side with the mallers and instead help against them. what if this person knows where the new hideout is.

I know that there are holes in my thinking, ex. if the rat is still alive and wasnt killed in the fight, then how would they have contacted the mallers after the first battle in the tower, but as we all know Kc can find a way to fit anything into the story naturally.

What are your thoughts?
Could this person be Steven? Could it all work out that he ends up saving her and taking out the mallers, if it is him, he has to die in the fight right?

[nikvoodoo]

Very interesting, Young padawan.....very very interesting.

This prompted me to think about something I'm not sure was mentioned in the "Who's the Rat" thread (and if it was please excuse me....it was a 25 page long thread!), what if when Latch and Scratch arrived at the Tower the first time to negotiate the rat was already there and led them right to the Tower? Sad to say for all the Kalani haters, that means it's not Kalani. and by the way...that also means it wasn't Kelly because she fell asleep while guarding the Tower. And if that is the case, I feel like a lot of people's votes would change and would probably change to an Unknown Tower resident. But enough of that thought!

If the Rat survived the war, I'd imagine they would get in contact with the Mallers the same way they did before. Via the radio. The Tower isn't over run with communication equipment like the Colony is. They probably don't have a way to monitor all frequencies to try to catch errant transmissions to the enemy. That's not to say Michael won't institute this policy now that he's seen how effective it is, but I don't think it's in place now.

I do believe that the Rat is still alive, and they will have to die. They may not necessarily (and honestly probably won't) die in the upcoming altercation between the Mallers and the Tower, but they will have to die before the end. It's Hollywood Karma. If the rat is still alive and present in the ranks of the Tower, they will expose themselves (or be exposed) and switch sides and go with the Mallers. This would mean that a third altercation between the Tower and the Mallers would be coming down the pike in Season 3 or 4 where the Rat would be killed then.

[apot007]

Who had access to the radio before or during the party? Tommie.
Who was on guard during the party? Tommie.
Who is always working with Datu?
How was the first person to tell pegs that Riley shop had been broke into?
Which person would have previous contact with the Maller before the zombie outbreak happened?
By the way, which arm did Micheal break. Left or Right? The picture attached to the Micheal profile show a sling on his left arm. However there is no clear statement in the podcast.

[nikvoodoo]

Which person would have previous contact with the Maller before the zombie outbreak happened?

I assume from the rest of your post you think it's Tommy, but how would he have previous contact with the Mallers?

[Ra1th]

If the Rat survived the war, I'd imagine they would get in contact with the Mallers the same way they did before. Via the radio. The Tower isn't over run with communication equipment like the Colony is. They probably don't have a way to monitor all frequencies to try to catch errant transmissions to the enemy. That's not to say Michael won't institute this policy now that he's seen how effective it is, but I don't think it's in place now.
.

i think you're dead on, except for this part. Do you remember a long time ago, back when you were first starting out and i was a mod, a member unleashed all hell on the war, basically pointing out a number of either weaknesses or plotholes in the war?

this thread
http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?33-Season-2-opener-war-with-Mallers&p=1421#post1421

basically one of the things he brought up was that, had the traitor been working with the mallers, or was fully cooperating with the mallers, then he would have told them how to avoid the car sensors, and setting off the silent alarms, or the traitor would have helped set up a pulley system into the tower from the apartment building next door, one similar to the one saul set up so that they could move between buildings for testing. basically he said that the traitor could have caused a lot more damage than he did, he claimed this was a plot hole, and we argued that its possibly another fact to be considered. so what was really interesting about all this was that whoever the traitor was, he/she either had a change of heart midway through it, or was not all that commited to the mallers or had his/her own agenda (if it is the last one, you can incorporate the random tower resident shooting at the mallers and starting the war)

[nikvoodoo]

basically one of the things he brought up was that, had the traitor been working with the mallers, or was fully cooperating with the mallers, then he would have told them how to avoid the car sensors, and setting off the silent alarms, or the traitor would have helped set up a pulley system into the tower from the apartment building next door, one similar to the one saul set up so that they could move between buildings for testing. basically he said that the traitor could have caused a lot more damage than he did, he claimed this was a plot hole, and we argued that its possibly another fact to be considered. so what was really interesting about all this was that whoever the traitor was, he/she either had a change of heart midway through it, or was not all that commited to the mallers or had his/her own agenda (if it is the last one, you can incorporate the random tower resident shooting at the mallers and starting the war)

I do recall this thread and I also recall how much I disagreed with Dave's points (wonder if he's still around... Haven't seen him since that thread). There still is the possibility that the person who sold the tower out didn't know about the green cars and the silent alarm. After all, that system was only a day or two old when the Mallers showed up at the front door with all their friends. Tommy and Burt set it up after they left on the water/zombie tracking mission.

I still don't think a zip line is an option, it would require way too much coordination between one person and the Mallers not to mention equipment would-be hard to get a hold of. Saul had to make the harnesses for the sweat bottle experiment, and it's not exactly like the rat could ask Saul to do that for him/her.

But all said and done, I don't buy the change of heart. I would however buy into the own agenda thought. Especially once it became clear the Mallers were being outclassed by the tower I bet they either continued to sulk alone in their room (go Datu theory!) or began chuckin' crap with spit and vigor!

[BruceBonsai]

I really want to believe that the Rat is gonna be Angel because I always like to think whatever would be the most obsurd or controversial thing would happen.
I don't have much in terms of solid evidence but here you go:

Angel has a history with Scratch in some form though not fleshed out much[ note; his hot wiring skills, important?]

Angel early on was angry and bitter in not being able to be in charge and as the series progressed he seemed to accept it.[ I think he is just laying in the cut and working behind the scenes to get what he wants; I have no idea what he would want though]

Angel would probably have open access to most of the Tower[note Burt's combo]

I only think this because he just seems to have kind of fallen in the shadows if you will lately and its about time for him to do something BIG.

Like perhaps betray the Tower attack force with the help of Scratch?

BRING IT ON NICK!!!! Be gentle, I'm tender.

[itsallgoodie]

I really want to believe that the Rat is gonna be Angel because I always like to think whatever would be the most obsurd or controversial would happen...

Angel early on was angry and bitter in not being able to be in charge and as the series progressed he seemed to accept it.[ I think he is just laying in the cut and working behind the scenes to get what he wants; I have no idea what he would want though]

Like perhaps betray the Tower attack force with the help of Scratch?


After reading this i heard in my head Angel saying aloud to scratch something along the lines of, "I dont care who you kill, just take care of Michael." I could totally see this happening, but at the same point, he has done a hell of a lot to help them, he even said aloud with no sound of anger o deceit that he thought Michael should be in charge. I feel like he might have tried to resist that in the first place, but i honestly could see it happening, just not sure if it will.

[Ra1th]

First of all, whenever you attack angel, the one you should be afraid of is ME thank you very much.



I really want to believe that the Rat is gonna be Angel because I always like to think whatever would be the most obsurd or controversial would happen.
I don't have much in terms of solid evidence but here you go: .


Angel has a history with Scratch in some form though not fleshed out much[ note; his hot wiring skills, important?] .

Scratch once said that Angel seems familiar this doesn’t have to mean anything, although the hotwiring may mean something, but that doesn’t mean he used to run around in a gang with scratch or that scratch was his lover etc. all it means is that they may have met at one point.



Angel early on was angry and bitter in not being able to be in charge and as the series progressed he seemed to accept it.[ I think he is just laying in the cut and working behind the scenes to get what he wants; I have no idea what he would want though] .

I’d like to point out that when things first started off, Angel was the commanding officer, before everything went to hell, he WAS in charge, once it became clear the army and the rest of humanity had fallen, Michael took power, Angel attempted to maintain leadership for a bit but he soon gave in after the initial crisis.



Angel would probably have open access to most of the Tower[note Burt's combo] .

Yes Angel has access to all of the tower, as does Michael, and Burt and riley, would you like to accuse them of being the traitor as well?



I only think this because he just seems to have kind of fallen in the shadows if you will lately and its about time for him to do something BIG.


Like perhaps betray the Tower attack force with the help of Scratch?

BRING IT ON NICK!!!! Be gentle, I'm tender.

How has Angel fallen into the shadows lately? If anything he’s been a hero to the tower lately, klling behemoths and getting food and water when the tower is starving,


You have no evidence supporting any of these conclusions. The problem is “what if” statements, they require huge leaps of faith, which weakens the theory.



And here’s why he’s innocent


Angel Tunudo -

Angel is an intelligent character capable enough to be the mole. However it is unlikely that Angel was behind it. At the time, Angel was Michael’s second in command. He was behind the tactical aspects of the missions, and the overall well being of the tower. He was making headway with Riley, maybe it would lead to a relationship. He was best friends with Saul and Michael. Basically, life was good for Angel. I have heard theories that maybe Angel wanted Michael’s spot as top dog of the tower, there are two problem s with this theory. First of all, calling the Mallers does not help him get that spot. If the Mallers took over the tower, then it is far more likely that he’d lose his position as second in command, if his friends found out, he’d lose them too. Second, there is absolutely no evidence that Angel wanted command, he attempted to take power after Michael quit after the war, but quickly handed power over to Burt. Angel looks up to Michael, and often turns to him for judgment and advice, he wouldn’t attempt to usurp power.

Chance of Angel being the traitor: Next to 0

[BruceBonsai]

Scratch once said that Angel seems familiar this doesn’t have to mean anything, although the hotwiring may mean something, but that doesn’t mean he used to run around in a gang with scratch or that scratch was his lover etc. all it means is that they may have met at one point.


I thought this because Scratch mentioned early on that she remembers peoples faces well and also in her character profile it lists her special talents as Facial and Voice Recognition


I’d like to point out that when things first started off, Angel was the commanding officer, before everything went to hell, he WAS in charge, once it became clear the army and the rest of humanity had fallen, Michael took power, Angel attempted to maintain leadership for a bit but he soon gave in after the initial crisis.


I only say this about Angel it's due to that I have worked with someone like this during my stint in the Marines and it ultimately ended with my superior becoming a bitter bastard and trying his best to be dick towards me and screw me over, completely unprofessional and unbecoming, this wasn't in wartime or anything but I am speaking simply about his personality type. Though Angel hasn't exuded many of these traits.


Yes Angel has access to all of the tower, as does Michael, and Burt and riley, would you like to accuse them of being the traitor as well?


I honestly haven't given much thought to Michael, Burt or Riley because I think that Angel would present the biggest "shock" if you will. And since Michael is the main protagonist he can't be evil right? Burt, I'm on his side for his experience in the Marines, lame I know. And for Riley, she's still up in the air for me but I really don't think she is capable of much.


How has Angel fallen into the shadows lately? If anything he’s been a hero to the tower lately, klling behemoths and getting food and water when the tower is starving,


I simply claimed the shadow theory because it seems that he really hasn't done anyhting significant in the past 1-2 chapters, at least from how I remember. He just seemed to coast off Burt while Michael was at the Colony. AND he maybe gave Burt the leadership role to be able to do his dark deeds without people bothering him. Because Burt himself obviously doesn't want to be in charge and doesn't think too highly of Angel probably.


And here is why I think he could possibly be the Rat
He always seemed to come off as wimpy and quickly blamed others and short tempered from the start. i.e. broken rifle, pulling rank.

Like I like to think , with they way that Kc writes the story I take every single detail no matter how insignificant into account and "hope" that they play a bigger role down the line in the series.


With that I leave the floor to you. "You're Move" [as i say that in the Rorschach voice] :)

[Joosbawx]

if Angel is the rat, then it would have been very careless of Scratch to semi-out him like that by stating he seemed "familiar".

edit to add additional thoughts:

if the rat isn't a plant by the mallers...meaning it is someone that, for one reason or another, wants to assist the mallers...then it is possible they contacted the mallers of their own volition and not "under orders" from the maller head honcho. if that is the case, then they most likely would not have ever seen each other face to face and only communicated via the radio. if...big if here...any of the above is true, then Angel could be the rat; however, I personally find that unlikely.

[BruceBonsai]

if Angel is the rat, then it would have been very careless of Scratch to semi-out him like that by stating he seemed "familiar".

Well to be fair, I'm not sure, so correct me if I'm wrong. But I think Scratch and Angel had that conversation BEFORE the death of Latch, so I guess that might have changed things, heck I even go as far as to say that was the spark to help start "The War".

[Joosbawx]

indeed...however I guess I am running with the assumption that the rat is/was someone there to facilitate the maller takeover of the Tower resources...so, chronologically, the rat would have been "in place" by the time that Angel and Scratch spoke at the Tower.

[Ra1th]

I thought this because Scratch mentioned early on that she remembers peoples faces well and also in her character profile it lists her special talents as Facial and Voice Recognition.


Which only serves to strengthen my argument, if Scratch is so good at remembering names and faces, then why is it that she doesn’t remember Angel’s face and name? We know that Scratch is a higher up in the maller leadership chain, possibly even second in command, so if Angel was the traitor, then she would have remembered him very well. Also if he was the traitor and had been in contact with the Mallers, why would she give us, (and Michael) reason to suspect him by saying he seems familiar? It’s very likely that Angel had a run in with Scratch in his past, but if scratch is really so good with faces and names, then she would immediately be able to tell who the traitor is, and then would keep her mouth shut about it, because why would she want to blow the traitor’s cover?



I only say this about Angel it's due to that I have worked with someone like this during my stint in the Marines and it ultimately ended with my superior becoming a bitter bastard and trying his best to be dick towards me and screw me over, completely unprofessional and unbecoming, this wasn't in wartime or anything but I am speaking simply about his personality type. Though Angel hasn't exuded many of these traits. .


Well I can’t really speak for military service, but other than in the beginning, Angel never really seems bitter about losing command. For the most part he’s always the comic relief for the show, especially since saul’s been out of commission. And I think something to consider is that, in the post apocalyptic world, Angel is friends with Michael and Saul, I mean they sit around and play cards, I wouldn’t really say Angel is bitter at Michael for being the leader. And before anyone says that Angel said he would have liked to have been considered for leadership in 20-1, I’ll point out that, he says right after, that right now, the tower is rightfully Michael’s so I don’t think Angel really cares too much about losing his officer status, besides he’s second in command right now, if the Mallers came in, he’d lose that position.




I honestly haven't given much thought to Michael, Burt or Riley because I think that Angel would present the biggest "shock" if you will. And since Michael is the main protagonist he can't be evil right? Burt, I'm on his side for his experience in the Marines, lame I know. And for Riley, she's still up in the air for me but I really don't think she is capable of much. .


http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/content.php?152-Tower-gate
Shameless self promotion, but yeah I don’t really think its any of those guys either



I simply claimed the shadow theory because it seems that he really hasn't done anyhting significant in the past 1-2 chapters, at least from how I remember. He just seemed to coast off Burt while Michael was at the Colony. AND he maybe gave Burt the leadership role to be able to do his dark deeds without people bothering him. Because Burt himself obviously doesn't want to be in charge and doesn't think too highly of Angel probably. .
But if that’s the case, then Datu hasn’t done anything for like the entire season, and Burt has been sitting around failing at life, Kalani hasn’t done anything since his mission with Angel and there are a bunch of people who haven’t done much lately, as for why burt took power…. Sighhh fuck I don’t wanna use this but


http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?1247-Will-Angel-Ever-Take-Control-of-the-Tower


somewhere in this war lies a point saying that Angel didn’t take leadership after Michael left because he CANT, because he lacks fire and charisma that a leader needs. It’s not my argument, I don’t like that argument, but I think it’s right, Angel didn’t take leadership because he attempted to and then couldn’t keep the masses under control so Burt stepped in.


And here is why I think he could possibly be the Rat
He always seemed to come off as wimpy and quickly blamed others and short tempered from the start. i.e. broken rifle, pulling rank.
He came off as wimpy in the first few episodes, but if you’ve noticed we haven’t seen that side of angel in a really long time, Angel’s been a great soldier on the field as of late, he pulled rank before because he didn’t know what he was up against and didn’t like his power being usurped, I mean if you take a look at him now, he’d never really do that anymore. He started off as this whiny wimpy soldier, and part of what makes him such a great character is seeing how he’s grown over time and overcome all this he started off as a failure of an officer, and now he’s come into his own in leading missions and killing zombies.

[BruceBonsai]

indeed...however I guess I am running with the assumption that the rat is/was someone there to facilitate the maller takeover of the Tower resources...so, chronologically, the rat would have been "in place" by the time that Angel and Scratch spoke at the Tower.

Assuming your assumption is true, which is possible. But I always saw it as like I said in the earlier post with Ra1th. That since Angel pretty much had free reign of the Tower while Michael was gone minus any responsiblity as the leader since Burt was in charge. Even though Burt claimed he isn't cut out to be in charge and didn't seem to "want" to be in charge after Michael returned. Thus giving Angel ample time to do what he wants with out the hassle of other Tower dwellers in his hair.

[Ra1th]

Assuming your assumption is true, which is possible. But I always saw it as like I said in the earlier post with Ra1th. That since Angel pretty much had free reign of the Tower while Michael was gone minus any responsiblity as the leader since Burt was in charge. Even though Burt claimed he isn't cut out to be in charge and didn't seem to "want" to be in charge after Michael returned. Thus giving Angel ample time to do what he wants with out the hassle of other Tower dwellers in his hair.

ok you really need to look at this thread

http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?1247-Will-Angel-Ever-Take-Control-of-the-Tower

i hate this thread, i lost this fight, but it's valid nonetheless

[Joosbawx]

Bruce, I agree with you that Angel had opportunity; however, seeing as how we dont know the exact whereabouts of every character at all given times the same can be said of most of the characters. what I don't agree with is that Angel has a motive for being the rat. if you are saying he is doing it because he was passed up for leadership of the Tower...well, being the rat and helping destroy the Tower seems too petty and doesnt help him become "in charge". if anything, he is setting himself up as a patsy for whorver is pulling h rat's strings from within the mallers.

I also agree that Angel being the rat would be a huge twist; however, at this point, I don't think the plot.can justify it without some huge backstory.

[TCM Revolver]

Bruce, I agree with you that Angel had opportunity; however, seeing as how we dont know the exact whereabouts of every character at all given times the same can be said of most of the characters. what I don't agree with is that Angel has a motive for being the rat. if you are saying he is doing it because he was passed up for leadership of the Tower...well, being the rat and helping destroy the Tower seems too petty and doesnt help him become "in charge". if anything, he is setting himself up as a patsy for whorver is pulling h rat's strings from within the mallers.

I also agree that Angel being the rat would be a huge twist; however, at this point, I don't think the plot.can justify it without some huge backstory.

Ra1th, I think we found your sidekick!! :D

[Joosbawx]

hey, wait...why do *I* have to be the sidekick?!?

[TCM Revolver]

hey, wait...why do *I* have to be the sidekick?!?

Lol, He was here first. Get your Robin costume ready :p

[nikvoodoo]

Sighhh fuck I don’t wanna use this but
http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?1247-Will-Angel-Ever-Take-Control-of-the-Tower

Did your soul burn to list this as a reference and then tear your boy down with my and crowbar's logic? I'm just wondering.

Yes, bruce, as you obviously realize now, Ra1th is who you need to worry about when it comes to poking at Angel. You just need to worry about me for everything else you might post.....because just like the any vigilante superhero, you don't know if I'm nearby but I just might be....;)

Just want to throw this out there though: Scratch's ability to remember faces but not remember Angel right away means that whatever interaction they had was a long time ago. She remembered Lizzy immediately when she saw her in the furniture store. And could tell her exactly where it was and even in the chaos of the War she ID'd her throwing stuff from the balconies.

But here's the bigger point: Angel knew exactly who she was. Tell me one single other instance when Angel was a shoot first and ask questions later kind of character. Especially this is still in his "Maybe they'll just go away" phase. All of a sudden, he wants to just kill them. Intriguing.

[Ra1th]

Yes as a matter of fact a small part of me died when I typed that out... Dark times they were... I think that was my first serious debate I lost, after that it's been a downward spiral of crashing and burning at every turn

[Joosbawx]

Lol, He was here first. Get your Robin costume ready :p

Fine...if that's what it takes to defend Angel...I guess that's what it takes. Just remember you are the one that asked me to dress up in spandex.

http://www.joosbawx.com/avatars/joosbawx_robin.png

[TCM Revolver]

Fine...if that's what it takes to defend Angel...I guess that's what it takes. Just remember you are the one that asked me to dress up in spandex.



http://www.joosbawx.com/avatars/joosbawx_robin.png

That's awesome man!!! Alot better than what I was picturing.

http://costumefail.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/fat-robin-02.jpg

[Adventureless_Hero]

Isn't there already a thread about the rat? lol

[MrScott101]

There is, but I think this was intended to be more focused on a couple individuals rather than debate about everyone.

[Ra1th]

Fine...if that's what it takes to defend Angel...I guess that's what it takes. Just remember you are the one that asked me to dress up in spandex.

http://www.joosbawx.com/avatars/joosbawx_robin.png

wow that's awesome! it should be required that you use that as your avatar during angel wars hahahaa

[Joosbawx]

Its amazing what MS Paint can do.