Who makes the best leader?

[Destiny]

I liked Michael when he was in charge, atleast in the beginning, he was going in the right direction and I agreed with his decisions. I don't like the direction Burt is taking things.

[Wicked Sid]

Michael was good as a leader, but, I don't see him taking over again anytime soon and about Burt, well, Burt is Burt.

Angel's going to take control around the mid-season of Season 3. But, in the near future, I see Kalani gaining a following and possibly leaving the Tower, with Burt leaving on his own. As the Tower breaks down (Again), Saul will probably take control with Michael and Angel as his support.

[nikvoodoo]

I vote Michael...but to be completely honest, none of the choices thrill me and there aren't any other leaders in the group. Michael, as we know, did well enough to keep them alive in the beginning. His tactics and methods worked well, but he cracked under intense pressure. I stress intense because he kept his cool for the most part, but finally he reached his wits end after the War.

Burt's method of leadership is hard to get a clear sense of because we don't hear his rationalizations. Unlike Burt we know (through narration) why Michael did what he did. Just think if we followed Kelly upstairs after the near eviction from the tower and Michael shot the zombie that came charging for her. We hear exactly why he decided to push her outside. We get no such luxury in Burt's case. There's no in depth analysis indicating why Burt does what he does. I feel if we heard from his point of view more often, we might be more agreeable to his leadership.

As for Angel.....he can't even keep Kalani in order. If one chunky Hawaiian can't follow your orders what hope is there? Joking aside, Angel is growing, but he hasn't proven he can lead the Tower yet.

[Onslaught]

I voted for Michael, when Michael was leader he was taking it in the right direction, planning everything out but in the end it just didn't work out. Angel still isn't experienced enough to be put in...

[wooly]

No option for "none of the above"? Right now I don't have a lot of faith in any of the top 3 contestants.

[Ra1th]

No option for "none of the above"? Right now I don't have a lot of faith in any of the top 3 contestants.

there's an option for "other"

and even i agree, michaels ur best leader

[SleepyGlenn]

Agreed! I like Michael, he's really smart. It's a shame about his attitude with the other Towermates.

[Destiny]

Agreed! I like Michael, he's really smart. It's a shame about his emo attitude with the other Towermates.

I find your misuse and misunderstanding of the term "emo" slightly insulting. Emo is nothing more than a music genre that sparked a sub-culture to follow it. Emo doesn't even stand for "emotional", it stands for "emotive hardcore" a genre of music started in the mid 1980s and popularized in the early 2000s.

The notion that all emo people cut themselves, are depressed, and want to commit suicide is a misconception created by the media. Just like the misconception that people who listen to metal worship the devil and want to kill people.

[Onslaught]

I find your misuse and misunderstanding of the term "emo" slightly insulting. Emo is nothing more than a music genre that sparked a sub-culture to follow it. Emo doesn't even stand for "emotional", it stands for "emotive hardcore" a genre of music started in the mid-1980s.

The notion that all emo people cut themselves, are depressed, and want to commit suicide is a misconception created by the media. Just like the misconception that people who listen to metal worship the devil and want to kill people.
Sorry to get off topic but I just wanted to ask everyone if rock is the devils music then what does that make Christian rock?

[SleepyGlenn]

I find your misuse and misunderstanding of the term "emo" slightly insulting. Emo is nothing more than a music genre that sparked a sub-culture to follow it. Emo doesn't even stand for "emotional", it stands for "emotive hardcore" a genre of music started in the mid 1980s and popularized in the early 2000s.

The notion that all emo people cut themselves, are depressed, and want to commit suicide is a misconception created by the media. Just like the misconception that people who listen to metal worship the devil and want to kill people.

Oh no! Sorry I didn't mean to cause offense. I have changed my post. I think I only used the phrase because I heard Michael described as such on the We're Not Dead podcast just now. I really don't think that people who identify themselves as Emo are depressed people, and I know what it stands for. I like that music myself. I said that he was Emo in a teasing way at the steriotype but I get that you might have found it ignorant. Sorry about that.

Personally I can't stand it when people say that something is "gay" when they mean something negative, so I understand.

[Wicked Sid]

Sorry to get off topic but I just wanted to ask everyone if rock is the devils music then what does that make Christian rock?

Purgatory.

[Ra1th]

Sorry to get off topic but I just wanted to ask everyone if rock is the devils music then what does that make Christian rock?

LOL oxymoron

[Destiny]

Personally I can't stand it when people say that something is "gay" when they mean something negative, so I understand.

People are just ignorant. Same reason people still say the "n word"

[SleepyGlenn]

Purgatory.

So that's what the zombies were doing in the arena... they were holding a Christian Rock concert!!

[Destiny]

So that's what the zombies were doing in the arena... they were holding a Christian Rock concert!!

lol the tattooed one is the lead singer

[SleepyGlenn]

LOL. It all makes sense when you think about it.

[Onslaught]

lol the tattooed one is the lead singer
LOL and the normal ones he calls are his fans

[nikvoodoo]

Behemoths are security.

[Wicked Sid]

Brain are the producers, back-up Dancers, back-up singers, and the band because the normals are useless as anything important.

[Dr Janus]

Burt rocks. He's probably the only one with 'real' war experience, hardened by the terrors and trials undergone during his little venture in Nam... His act proves he is determined to do what it takes without crying or whining about it. As for leadership material.. well sometimes under certain circumstances.. people need a little spanking to do what needs to be done, just ask a ceo of any major corporation. I'm thinking if everyone had his hard core no bull#@!t outlook, their chances for survival would likely be a lot higher. The tower members need to eat some bricks and harden the f up, become a soldier or perish. Frankly his love affair with his trusty gun says it all. And what's more... He is never apologetic

[Ra1th]

Burt rocks. He's probably the only one with 'real' war experience, hardened by the terrors and trials undergone during his little venture in Nam... His act proves he is determined to do what it takes without crying or whining about it. As for leadership material.. well sometimes under certain circumstances.. people need a little spanking to do what needs to be done, just ask a ceo of any major corporation. I'm thinking if everyone had his hard core no bull#@!t outlook, their chances for survival would likely be a lot higher. The tower members need to eat some bricks and harden the f up, become a soldier or perish. Frankly his love affair with his trusty gun says it all. And what's more... He is never apologetic

gotta disagree with you there man, michael served three tours in overseas, he's pretty hardened. I'd say Saul is pretty hardcore too, he just runs his mouth a lot and has terrible aim

[Dr Janus]

Yeah, Saul definitely is a classic, If I'm not mistaken, hasn't Michael wigged out from all the recent pressure, losing faith in himself as a leader etc ? Anyways look forward to seeing where it all leads.. knowing Bert, he would likely lead everyone to their deaths for some gung ho scheme.

[Destiny]

Burt isn't finding anything out about the zombies. If Michael was still in charge he probably would have plans to hijack a military bomber and carpet bomb the Arena or something like that.

[I The K Train I]

I think Michael is the man and will be the man again to lead the group. Burt is just not able to, he has a gung-ho attitude about him and other members will get fair pissed off with him sooner or later. Burt is all about holding up and not going out and looking for various things. As far as I remember they had to do to some convincing to let Michael, Peggs and Kelly go look for aid for Saul.

I can't think of anyone that could do a better job than Michael was doing. Maybe Riley if it came down to it.

[nikvoodoo]

The leadership styles between Michael and Burt go back to their roles in the military. Gunnery Sgt. Burt was trained for assault and tactical missions. And he survived Vietnam, so he was obviously...

[Ra1th]

i dont think u guys are giving Burt enough credit here, look when michael was in charge, things were good, there was lots of food still available, the water was still working, they had guns and ammo,...

[nikvoodoo]

also i think its worth mentioning that we as the audience are seeing things from michael/angel/riley/lizzy/pegs' perspective in the tower,

This is the point I've been trying to bring up all over the forum, especially when it came to Kalani (and I would have done the same for Kelly, but she turned the corner right around the time I started listening). Perspective is everything. I can't even remember where I posted this, but i posed this as an example of perspective on here: imagine if we started the story with Kelly, and you hear from her point of view Michael pushing her out into the rain and almost being attacked by a zombie. If we follow her back upstairs and don't hear Michael's reasoning what do you think of him? Exactly.

Perspective, perspective, perspective!

[Chelsea C.]

Michael is the better leader at this moment in time, but I feel Angel will eventually take over and become a stronger leader. Right now, Angel simply lacks experience, therefore confidence. However, I do feel Angel is intelligent/analytical, which will benefit him greatly once he finds his footing in the ranks. I have to admit, with his newfound aggressiveness and assertiveness, Angel was kind of turning me on during the last few chapters. XD

[nikvoodoo]

Michael is the better leader at this moment in time, but I feel Angel will eventually take over and become a stronger leader. Right now, Angel simply lacks experience, therefore confidence. However, I do feel Angel is intelligent/analytical, which will benefit him greatly once he finds his footing in the ranks. I have to admit, with his newfound aggressiveness and assertiveness, Angel was kind of turning me on during the last few chapters. XD

I think you and Ra1th will make a beautiful couple ;) He might be the biggest Angel fanboy there is.

[Chelsea C.]

I think you and Ra1th will make a beautiful couple ;) He might be the biggest Angel fanboy there is.

We've already found each other! I've joined his Angel Fan Group. You must have heard the wedding bells. :D

[nikvoodoo]

We've already found each other! I've joined his Angel Fan Group. You must have heard the wedding bells. :D

I thought I heard something....I just thought it was because I got clocked upside my head or something.....

[Chelsea C.]

I thought I heard something....I just thought it was because I got clocked upside my head or something.....

Ahaha! Surely it's not that bad...

[cPT.cAPSLOCK]

All angel is lacking is experience, which he is gaining rapidly. His training in officer school focused mostly on tactics and leadership, so he should be able to do what's best for the group soon enough. I do agree that Michael did well early on, but some of the decisions he made were irrational if you look at the bigger picture.

[Beaumont]

The Devils elevator music <br />
<br />
The &quot;Best Leader&quot; would have to be whoever is in charge of the &quot;Zombies&quot;

[Solanine]

Got to be Michael. Burt is far to un sympathetic as a leader, I wish he'd go back to being a plain old bad-ass!

[JesseG]

In Michael's defense, he did have a busted up arm during the war at the tower with the mallers and the zombies. He's been put through the meat grinder and still kept his cool. It was mostly when a...

[Th3_T3ch]

I've read several times on this thread that all that angel needs is experience. That is wrong, Angel has plenty of experience, what he lacks is respect. That issue is even addressed early on, Saul tells Angel bluntly that Angel hasn't done anything that should yield some respect. The reason Michael and Burt are leaders is because people respect them. They respect Michael because he started the Tower, and they respect Burt because, lets face it, he is the best shot around. The only thing that could give Angel some respect is his recent food run, which everybody else has done but Angel was the first to come back with anything.

[Hellbringer]

From a military perspective, all three have leadership skills as brought up earlier in this thread. And as people have stated, all three pull their leadership styles from their experiences, training, or both.
Burt seems to be using what he learned from his days as a "devil dog." (I can't remember if he did say he served in the 'Nam and while the wiki section doesn't say it, I'm sure he would have been there for a tour or two). Telling Marines what to do is easy as a Marine, telling civilians what to do as a retired Marine is not so easy. Burt finished his career as a Gunny (E-7). That would meant that he spent time as a Platoon Sergeant when he was a Staff Sergeant (E-6) and probably continued for a time as a Gunny. However, Burt would've had a junior officer, a Second or First Lieuy, as his platoon commander. Burt would have had the daily functions of the platoon to worry about while the platoon commander would take care of the overall mission. I'm sure Burt would have had to temporarily fill in a platoon commander every once in a while when officers would be in transition between assignments, but that wouldn't give Burt the opportunity to learn about officer leadership from a schoolhouse environment.
Angel went to OCS, and while some of my buddies would say a thing or two about that school, it does produce leaders and they are trained to look at the bigger picture. But while OCS doesn't teach charisma or instanteous persausion techniques, it does have a lesson or two on Effective Communication Skills. Maybe Angel didn't pay too close attention to that block of instruction. He does need to earn more respect from the rest of the tower; as pointed out earlier, a second leuitenant or butterbar, cannot expect people who haven't been trained to follow orders to just listen blindly and obey someone's (lawful) command on a whim.
Michael is a buck sergeant; he's been to a leadership school, but as a junior sergeant or non-commissioned officer, he could possibly not have been prepared for what he deemed a failure during the Tower attack. The impact for that kind of result and how to handle it is not taught in a classroom, it's learned from past experiences whether big or small. So far, he's done a great job with what he knows and how he's handling the situation. It would be interesting to see in a future episode if he ran into a military unit and how he'd handle that. Not a para-military or militia unit like in the colony, but a real military unit that wasn't malignant, evil, or dastardly.


At least no one asked if Datu should be leader. :)

[Z Sniper]

victor, baby!!

[mem]

Stephen all the way!!! lol jk

[Yoyo]

I voted Michael too but I wouldn't emphasis his breakdown as a mark against him. People make mistakes and people bounce back from them all the time. Michael breakdown also, I think, isn't representative of his mental frame of health. I mean its not like he was a wooden stick and it snapped never to be whole again but more like torn muscle. It may heal and never be 100 percent again like it use to but it sure as well get what you need to be done and you would rather have it than not. Overall, this is my reason to have my complete confidence in Michael as I'm sure Angel, Pegs, Kelly, Lizzy, Saul, and Riley do in him.

As for Burt, I'm glad that someone step up to plate and I really think that Burt actions (aside from combining morning rations with meetings) were no better than Michaels. I mean that in he basically carried on what a fully okay michael would have done but just with less finese in how Michael would have done it.

Now for Angel, I'm fairly certain he would have done as good a job as Burt had something happened to Burt to take him out of the leadership position. Is there any evidence that's points to it? His field work points to yes and no but overall, I would take him as leader over the rest of the tower in that he's military trained, he worked closely with michael to know how things operate within the tower, and he's experience out in the field. Even if Angel is proven not to be the best, I believe there is no denying that if Michael died, Angel would carry on within the tower as a best choice for the next leader. Which is really though as good as Burt's leadership.

[HardKor]

While I do love Angel, Burt, Saul, etc. Its all about Michael. <br />
The way I see it is that one of the defining themes of the entire series is Michael's coming to terms with what it means to be a...

[wh33t]

Took the words right out of my mouth/head/fingers. That' exactly it. <br />
<br />
Michael is the official leader in my head because he leads/inspires and takes care of his people. It's not about power for...

[Mando]

I voted for Angel because he seems to think quickly about consequences. For example when they were going to shut all the power off to Bill, Angel thought Bill might go crazy and shoot up the place which what Bill might have done.

[The_heard19]

I think that saul would make a good leader

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Took the words right out of my mouth/head/fingers. That' exactly it.

Michael is the official leader in my head because he leads/inspires and takes care of his people. It's not about power for him, it's about prosperity. The fact that he was able to diagnose the Colony for what it is shows that his heart is in the right place, and since the beginning he has won the Towers respect. It's more important to live than to survive, and Michael knows this full on.

Holy cow.. I now have a Man crush on both of you! hahahah. Hardkor said what i've said that a thousand times, but better. LOL.
Leadership boils down to inspiration and motivation. Everything else is academic.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

All angel is lacking is experience, which he is gaining rapidly. His training in officer school focused mostly on tactics and leadership, so he should be able to do what's best for the group soon enough. I do agree that Michael did well early on, but some of the decisions he made were irrational if you look at the bigger picture.

Capt,

Even Patton and Churchill made irrational decisions during WWII.

[Magrat]

Michael is the best leader for now. Perhaps someone else will step up but until then, it's Michael all the way. Burt was a disaster... Perhaps Riley should run things?

[Lab Rat]

In the case of both Burt and Michael, we’ve seen what can happen when all of the pressure is placed on one person. I can’t help but think that above having a leader there could be more focus on a leadership structure. There have been a lot of arguments for and against the top three contenders, but what if those three led as one?

[nikvoodoo]

There have been a lot of arguments for and against the top three contenders, but what if those three led as one?

The forums as we know them would cease to exist. Dead would rise from the grave, human sacrifices, cats and dogs living together.... Mass hysteria!!! ;)

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Originally Posted by Lab Rat
There have been a lot of arguments for and against the top three contenders, but what if those three led as one?

The forums as we know them would cease to exist. Dead would rise from the grave, human sacrifices, cats and dogs living together.... Mass hysteria!!!

What country or business has more than one leader? Nothing will ever get done if a comittee is needed. When the ish hits the fan, the leader needs to lead, not ask for permission. Besides, the cream always rises to the top. Nature has a pecking order

[Da-Demon-Monkey]

Honestly i say Chenwe AKA: CJ would be the best leader since she had The Other Tower the day of if not then maybe a few days after the beginning happened
because to have The Other Tower that well built usually takes weeks at the best conditions and EVERYONE working together but she got it done in maybe the first week since it started from when they got Burt, Lizzie, and Soul to go for the generator and the SWAT convoy deserted The Other Tower and it was already done and set up when Kulani showed up to there but .
CJ FOR THE WIN

[Malador]

I think that every situation has a particular character from the story that would make the best leader for the particular point. Michael is great at organization, but tends to over think in...

[LiamKerrington]

I am kind of curious: Why does no one put any trust into Riley?

Ok, during the show she became kind of weird and especially with the alcoholics kind of unreliable. But consider this: In the very beginning of the show she was the heart and soul of the small group of survivors when they established the Tower as an hideout. She came up with plenty of good ideas or caught almost anyone on his or her emotional stop to calm down or relax to a certain degree.
Maybe she never had a real opportunity to test her skills as a leader; but I see some potential in her.

Best wishes!
Liam

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

I am quite certain that the Angel option can be discarded at this point. :)

[LiamKerrington]

I am quite certain that the Angel option can be discarded at this point. :)

Unless .... dundunDUNNNNN!!!

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Unless .... dundunDUNNNNN!!!

Oh Liam, you are such an optimist! :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMmV-sR3sCc

Sorry guys, I could only retrieve the German dubbed version.

[PhysicsLB]

They all definitely have their strengths, but i see that as more a missed opportunity for those characters. Why not set them up in a chain of command that best uses all their assets?
My heirarchy would be something like:
CJ/Mike-Community organization and overall leadership
Burt/Saul-Scouting, Skirmishing, Defense
Riley/Pegs-Morale and Task Assignment (farming, repair, etc.)
Datu - Mechanics
Tanya - Medical obv.

This isnt the only or even best option. But they definitely have an opportunity here to do things better than they did before by playing to everyone's strengths.