The Zombies heat status

[itsallgoodie]

Ok, so this isn't really a big deal I just wanted to point it out so no one missed it. I'll put spoilers on but it is in reference to chapter 19 part 3.

Ok so when they were running away from the safe town they were getting shot at. Victor mentions that the guardians have thermal scopes. The only reason that this is important is because it 100% confirms the fact that the zombies are not just "the dead" they are alive in some way. (they have heat in their bodies). this could come into play if they ever try to "fix" a zombie.

anyway, im not sure how important this is. Just thought I would put it out there.

[Wicked Sid]

Maybe they use the scopes to discern who is alive and who is dead but still walking?

You see a walker, you scope in and they show no heat which leads to a safe kill.

[cPT.cAPSLOCK]

One of the reasons is to prevent people from fleeing. The guardians weren't just there to guard the place from the zombies, but also from its inhabitants. To see them at night, they'd need thermal or night-vision (usually infra-red).

Still, because they were using the scopes at night for the zombie-defense I assume they're able to see Zeds with it.

[itsallgoodie]

hmm sid that is a decent point too. I think you could be right. I guess the evidence is still i inconclusive.

[Kc]

They used night vision... not thermal. Everything's brighter, hence the use of flares to mess it up.

[itsallgoodie]

Oh whoops. Thats my bad. But to be fair to myself either would be effected by flares right? Maybe you can settle this for us anyway...are the zombies cold or hot? or will you not tell us and keep us shrouded in darkness?

[cPT.cAPSLOCK]

Flares can affect both, but in a different way.
In the case of night vision, you get blinded by the extremely intense light that's even being amplified by the scope (a bit like watching straight into the sun, with a lens to focus even more light into your eye - not a good idea). I've used decent night-vision goggles when we sailed from Hook of Holland to Harwich, and even small lights were enough to render it unusable. A flare would literally blind you, regardless of its location: even if you'd look the other way with the scope, it would still be way too light to use it properly.

In the case of thermal scope, the flare would create a lot of heat and hot air around it. Therefore, it would act like a smokescreen. However, it would not blind the user of the scope in any way, and by repositioning the guardian can see you again. Depending on the position of the flare, and that of the guardians, it would work or not.

[Kc]

Oh whoops. Thats my bad. But to be fair to myself either would be effected by flares right? Maybe you can settle this for us anyway...are the zombies cold or hot? or will you not tell us and keep us shrouded in darkness?
As to the hot or cold argument, I can't comment either way for now. It might come up in the story...

[MrScott101]

Well here's something to chew on, Depending on how quick the decay of the zombies is, also in relation to the season and location in which the story is taking place if they generate heat they would decay faster. So if survivors we're to just find a way to wait it out would the zombies even still be a threat with no meat or tissue just bones to attack you with? That also raises the question of how the Zombie disease is contracted, blood based, teeth based, some other micro organism or maybe it's nanobots taking control?

[itsallgoodie]

i doubt it, but i guess it could be nanobots. from what we understand its blood and other body fluids (lol).

[nikvoodoo]

Well here's something to chew on, Depending on how quick the decay of the zombies is, also in relation to the season and location in which the story is taking place if they generate heat they would decay faster. So if survivors we're to just find a way to wait it out would the zombies even still be a threat with no meat or tissue just bones to attack you with? That also raises the question of how the Zombie disease is contracted, blood based, teeth based, some other micro organism or maybe it's nanobots taking control?

As long as they can move, they can be dangerous. Remember the emaciated zombies that swam to attack Pegs and Michael on the yacht. They were withering away, but were still able to mount an offense against Michael and Pegs.

Teeth based contraction is unlikely. Tommy was infected after having an open wound infected with blood from the jumper. My vote as of now is blood/bodily fluid based. It's hard to know if a zombie scratch actually infects a human being. To the best of my remembrance we haven't heard a story of someone who got scratched and turned. Everyone we've seen turn did so from blood transfer or bite.

As to the actual discussion: I'm going to throw my hat in for hot zombies. I might even vote for overly hot zombies. I'm guessing that because they are able to accomplish super human feats, their metabolism grows out of control (along with other biological functions) to allow them to do that. This could also explain why the seem to eat so often and so much. The higher metabolism, the quicker you burn through nutrients and need to replenish.

[MrScott101]

In the case of Saul was he in front or behind Tommy? So far it seems that some have concern of him turning (although for the moment he still appears fine) but correct me if I'm wrong i've only listened the whole podcast 1 time through but wasn't Saul injured by a shot that went through turned Tommy? Therefor there has to be something a bit more even though it is apparently a fluid infection.

As for the heat thing I completely agree with your points nik and it makes a lot of sense So I'm with the group for HOT Nom Noms!

[nikvoodoo]

In the case of Saul was he in front or behind Tommy? So far it seems that some have concern of him turning (although for the moment he still appears fine) but correct me if I'm wrong i've only listened the whole podcast 1 time through but wasn't Saul injured by a shot that went through turned Tommy? Therefor there has to be something a bit more even though it is apparently a fluid infection.

As for the heat thing I completely agree with your points nik and it makes a lot of sense So I'm with the group for HOT Nom Noms!

Saul was behind Tommy when he was shot. Though not expressly stated in the podcast, Burt believes he shot Tommy, the bullet went through him and into Saul. That's why he's so concerned and has (in theory....we've been gone so long who knows?) kept Saul strapped to the bed. I'm sure you've seen the theories of blood splattering, and blood carried on the bullet and the heat of the bullet etc. If you haven't, I believe it's all in the "Saul's "Illness"" Thread.

[MrScott101]

Saul was behind Tommy when he was shot. Though not expressly stated in the podcast, Burt believes he shot Tommy, the bullet went through him and into Saul. That's why he's so concerned and has (in theory....we've been gone so long who knows?) kept Saul strapped to the bed. I'm sure you've seen the theories of blood splattering, and blood carried on the bullet and the heat of the bullet etc. If you haven't, I believe it's all in the "Saul's "Illness"" Thread.

Actually I'm still fairly new on the forum so I haven't checked everything out yet. I'll have to catch up on that one, very intriguing

[nikvoodoo]

Actually I'm still fairly new on the forum so I haven't checked everything out yet. I'll have to catch up on that one, very intriguing

My apologies! I gotta look before I leap sometimes. Here's the link for Saul's Illness (http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?944-Saul-s-quot-Illness-quot).

[MrScott101]

lol I already found it and posted!!

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

My 2 cents here.. the creatures aren't traditional Zombies aka Walking dead. They're turned ala Tommy. So in the spirit of the thread, they would have a heat signature.
Capts, that was a great answer to his question by the way.
Mr. Scott, the infection is transmited via body fluid. You're golden if you don't have any cuts. You can get blood on you all day. Ingest it or get it in your eyes or blood stream... that's another story. Oops, actually it's THIS story huh? LOL

[yarri]

Saul was behind Tommy when he was shot. Though not expressly stated in the podcast, Burt believes he shot Tommy, the bullet went through him and into Saul. That's why he's so concerned and has (in theory....we've been gone so long who knows?) kept Saul strapped to the bed. I'm sure you've seen the theories of blood splattering, and blood carried on the bullet and the heat of the bullet etc. If you haven't, I believe it's all in the "Saul's "Illness"" Thread.

If memory serves me right. Saul had Tommy's blood on his face when he hit the ground after he was shot. Poor Saul he is one of my most favorite characters.

[nikvoodoo]

If memory serves me right. Saul had Tommy's blood on his face when he hit the ground after he was shot. Poor Saul he is one of my most favorite characters.

I'll re-listen to that section if I get a chance tonight, but off the top of my head I don't recall anyone mentioning Saul having blood on his face.

But then again, my memory served me incorrectly in the same area of the podcast (when I thought Saul was shot with Shirley which wasn't the case).

[Eviebae]

So, the real question is are they alive or dead? Maybe it should be a poll... When Saul cut off the zombie's head in Chapter 1, he said it went through unusually easily (like it was rotting or soft) and they smell all kinds of bad zom:(. But there's stuff that suggests they are alive.

[COsurvivor]

We have seen the dead come back already... The Kid for one... there is a bit of assumption that he died and then reanimated. I do not consider this out of the storyline of things.

I would guess that the "writers" decided that since they have not stated this fact in any way that that means they have license to play with this scenario. Meaning they are now free to say there is a "CURE" and even that all the dead are no longer the Living Dead but are actually Highly Contagious.

[nikvoodoo]

We have seen the dead come back already... The Kid for one... there is a bit of assumption that he died and then reanimated. I do not consider this out of the storyline of things.

I would guess that the "writers" decided that since they have not stated this fact in any way that that means they have license to play with this scenario. Meaning they are now free to say there is a "CURE" and even that all the dead are no longer the Living Dead but are actually Highly Contagious.

What kid are you talking about? Tommy? Tommy never died in the traditional sense. Tommy turned (while groaning the whole time), got shot, collapsed, and then jumped back up and down the stair well to his death. Tommy used the same possum tactic used by The One With the Markings/It's Paul when he assaulted the Tower.

There has never been any explicit mention in either direction that the zombies in We're Alive are reanimated dead, or infected living. However if you look at the two people we've seen turn (Tommy and Fernando), they turn into a zombie without ever dying. So the case for the Living Dead, in my opinion, is pretty small.

[COsurvivor]

You are right now that I think about Tommy, who I meant, I guess as the genre has grown ie 28 Days Later... We see there that people can both die and non-die to be TURNED.

So the question that is raised, is this an infection or is it something more than that?

As I have yet to see a real researcher with the setup to take the time and effort to look into this line of thought. Yes there is a MD, but she does not have the equipment or setup at the tower to do anything... As of Yet!?? zom:(

[VeritableHero]

Yes, of course they have a heat signature because they are infected (not walking dead). Points used to support this:

They eat and can starve. This indicates a burning of energy. Using energy nearly always ends up in heat loss.
They react to human pheremones. This was proved by the sweat tests. Riley noticed on the video camera that attraction starts with the nose and ends with the teeth. A physical reaction would indicate the body is still working on at least a primal level.
There are smart ones. They act in a way that displays some intelligence and not simple attacks. This indicates brain activity which again would put off heat.
So far I haven't heard any confirmed reports of dead people becoming a flesh biter. Does anyone have proof that this could happen? Most of the instances are guesswork and "assumptions based on what we've seen in movies."

I find it interesting that KC would neither confirm or deny this, but there really isn't any room for guess work. The only thing we should be speculating about now is how it will be used. Thermal vision would be awesome, especially at night and for those keeping watch. Unless...

AH! Just thought of something. Maybe those that are infected immediately start to see a change in core body temperature. That would be a quick way to keep tabs on who it could have infected (even if they aren't showing signs of it yet).

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Hero,

You're my new best buddy! Great post!

The instances of the dead not rising are plentiful. One: Zombie dragging a person to the arena. They kill the creature, the person dies and stays dead.
Mallers died during the "War" they stayed dead
In the Romeroverse, the infection kills the host then the body reanimates shortly after death. In the KCverse, they turn right away.

[MrScott101]

Best part about all of this, it gives Kc more fodder for the show, which I'm sure he doesn't need but it's also the mark of an excellent show!

[Eviebae]

In I Am Legend (the book) there are two kinds of vampires--ones that had died and came back and ones who'd become infected but hadn't died. In the end, the ones who hadn't died, kill the ones who had because they were too damaged to ever act as human again. It's an interesting idea.

So, I wonder if the one that Saul beheaded was so soft was because it was in the early process of changing? The body has to grow and reform to create the more extreme kinds we've seen. I've posted before, the behemoths would have to grow bigger teeth in order to keep pace with the size of their mouths. As many people have pointed out, all that growth would require lots of fuel. So, if they ever reach a "final form" would they still have to eat as much? Would they really ever starve or go sluggish and wait?

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Didn't Saul just stick it to a couple creatures? I don't remember him beheading anything.

[nikvoodoo]

The one everyone is referring to is when Saul cut the head off the dead human in the parking garage in Chapter 1 (I believe). The guys head was nearly off already from being attacked, Saul just sort of finished the job.

[Eviebae]

The one everyone is referring to is when Saul cut the head off the dead human in the parking garage in Chapter 1 (I believe). The guys head was nearly off already from being attacked, Saul just sort of finished the job.

My bad. :o
I listened to it again and realized I'd heard it wrong. I thought it was something like: "I was halfway through before I'd even begun", but it was more like:"It was halfway through already before I'd even begun."

[nikvoodoo]

My bad. :o
I listened to it again and realized I'd heard it wrong. I thought it was something like: "I was halfway through before I'd even begun", but it was more like:"It was halfway through already before I'd even begun."

No worries. I refer back to my mistake of Saul being shot with Shirley. Nobody is right all the time.

[Beaumont]

Well here's something to chew on, Depending on how quick the decay of the zombies is, also in relation to the season and location in which the story is taking place if they generate heat they would decay faster. So if survivors we're to just find a way to wait it out would the zombies even still be a threat with no meat or tissue just bones to attack you with? That also raises the question of how the Zombie disease is contracted, blood based, teeth based, some other micro organism or maybe it's nanobots taking control?

I'm not sure what type of "zombies" these are yet because it seems as if there is no decay but instead more of a transformation to some other type of being. They have these big brute types then they have jumpers and who knows what else. I don't think there seems to be any indication of decay but they do seem to be changing or evolving. This is a very different take on what a "zombie" is.

[Eviebae]

I'm not sure what type of "zombies" these are yet because it seems as if there is no decay but instead more of a transformation to some other type of being.

Yeah, but I find pseudozomboidesques hard to type. ;)

Do you think there's an end stage?

[timberwoof]

I've been thinking about this a little. I have heard of two types so far but not very sure. One that have died then reanimate, and ones that turn. Is there a possibility the smart ones are those that just turn. Being that there higher brain functions are still working at the time of infection, but the ones that are just "regulars" are those that have died and come back because the basic animal instincts are the only that were reanimated within the brain. We already know they don't feel pain so that tells you right there some of their bodily functions don't work. Sound to me it's a mutated form of the "old school" zombie virus we are all use to in the past. Makes me think of Walking Dead meets Resident Evil meets I Am Legend the movie. Its a new type of Zombie.

As for the heat signature I think there is a big difference between them. The "turned" ones may have a higher temp than "regulars" due to energy expenditure, and the "reanimated" one may have a very low temps due to energy expenditure but loss of more bodily functions or abilities. But either way I think they have a lower body temp than a regular human. Either that or the body temps are much higher than humans and they are trying to keep themselves cooler which is the reason they started colonizing the ice arena, but when the refrigeration equipment failed it all thawed out. Don't know there are to many factors.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Wolf,

that's the thing, we don't have any instances where the dead have reanimated. Everyone so far is "Turned." Here's another thing for you, some do feel pain. Others have shown fear and are cognizant enough to keep their heads protected (behemoth attacking Angel and Kalani)

[VeritableHero]

I'm not sure what type of "zombies" these are yet because it seems as if there is no decay but instead more of a transformation to some other type of being. They have these big brute types then they have jumpers and who knows what else. I don't think there seems to be any indication of decay but they do seem to be changing or evolving. This is a very different take on what a "zombie" is.I disagree. In the episode about the boat off shore, Pegs and Micheal indicated that they appeared to be starving. They looked like they were dying. That's an indication of decay. It sounds like it takes them a long time to decay and/or tire out but at least they do!

[timberwoof]

Wolf,

that's the thing, we don't have any instances where the dead have reanimated. Everyone so far is "Turned." Here's another thing for you, some do feel pain. Others have shown fear and are cognizant enough to keep their heads protected (behemoth attacking Angel and Kalani)

Sorry by reanimated, I meant the ones that die and then come back. The turned are the ones that are mostly alive when the virus takes affect.

[Saint]

decay of the zombies ... if they generate heat they would decay faster. ...That also raises the question of how the Zombie disease is contracted, blood based, teeth based, some other micro organism or maybe it's nanobots taking control?
lot of assumptions there MrScott that I've been pondering myself:
Decay of zombies: I envision partial zombie bodies still walking around (ala "The Walking Dead") but will have to go re-listen for examples.
Zombie disease: we know humans can be "changed", we know it appears to be about as fast as "28 days later" in at least one case (Tommy), we think its from some immediate contact transmission (blood/body fluid/nano-bots) and is apparently not an "airborne pathogen" (at least not in severe doses) and burning zombie bodies doesn't carry the pathogen to others. Some levels of skin-to-skin contact have been shown to have no effect on normal humans.
Disease is still a subjective word (ala Michael's reluctance to call "them" zombies)
so the archetypal definition of "zombie" (the walking dead, undead, living dead - what have you) doesn't fit - these "things" ARE ALIVE (by virtue of their animation, their quest of food sources, their coordinated tactics, their use of smell - necessitating some level of cardio-pulmonary system) and so on - which leads me to think the title of our beloved podcast is a double entendre!

EDIT: sorry again - got to the end of page one and started typing - before realizing there was a page 2, 3 and 4!
Still - looks like a bunch of us are pointed in the same direction, which makes me think: if this happened today and "WE" were in the tower, chances are we would all be playing "Doctor Lab Coat" and experimenting on captured creatures...

[itsallgoodie]

Hmm this is all good discussion and i think i do have to agree with the point that they must have heat-due to they way they eat and move ect. I think you all thought of more than I did originally. but i think i have thought of something that will indirectly shoot down the idea that they are either noticeably warm or cold.

In what i think is chapter Ten. When Datu is captured and brought to the Arena, he is dragged by the zombies. He never yells or mentions that they are hot or that their hands are cold. I feel like Kc would have put something like that in there if he thought it was some sort of information that we should know. Along with this Samantha never wrote anything about it in Datu's journal nor did Datu. I feel like it would be something you would notice and think was odd, if when a zombie was carrying you it had extremely warm hands or cold hands. Anyway I hope this all makes sense.

[StickUpKid]

I gotta go with wicked Sid they probably just use it to tell things apart. But they mentioned not having many survivors show up why would they still use them

[Cabbage Patch]

Yes, of course they have a heat signature because they are infected (not walking dead).

Excellent point!

In the "Puppet Masters" movie, where humans are being taken over by alien invaders, we discover that the controlled humans are "being run hot", at higher metabolic rates than non-controlled humans. There's a great scene after that where you see a thermal image of a group of controlled humans surround one who isn't, their images being bright red, hers being a cooler red in the core, lighter colors toward the extremities. They grab her, an alien takes control, then suddenly her heat image intensifies to match the others.

[Grognaurd]

Yea, we have two multiple types of "night Vision."

The nightscope that amplifies ambient light. Starlight, moonlight, etc.

Infrared. This older tech the observrer had a headlamp and special goggles. The head lamp sends out infrared light and "lights" up thing like a regualr light. But, it is "too red" to be scene by the naked eye. But, have the goggles and see just fine. The biggest disadvantage of this tech is with some scouting the opfor may know you are using active infrared. They do not turn their headlamp on, but by wearing the goggles they can see the other dudes IR lamp. OOPs. Just like turning on a spot light saying come and get me.

FLIR Forward Looing Infra Red. Basically "thermorgraphic" vision. It reads heat signitures. Think Predator. or those part time plumbers part time ghost hunters on scifi. I see them often use FLIR.

The flare is going to bugger any of these. It would be like popping smoke before exchanging cover.

There some really neat stuff being done with Quantum Dots, but that is all I can say.

even a road will have a "heat signiture" the question is it above or below ambient.

I suspect WA zombies are warm blooded. But, it is at best conjecture